Panasonic GH6

[Video Hummus]

20 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

It's not that I'm opposed to 8K, I just really hope it's more than a GH5 but with 8K. I just don't think that's enough to ensure that M43 will be viable (outside of Japan anyway, where apparently it was the most popular mount last year) moving forward. 

 

On 2/3/2021 at 5:30 PM, kye said:

Personally I don't mind if it goes 8K, because the GH5 is 5K and I shoot 1080, so a 2.5x oversampling to a 4x oversampling isn't a large difference.

People shouldn't be opposed to 8K cameras. As the R5 and now the A1 show, the best thing Panasonic could do to improve a MFT sized sensor image is to aim for 8K and use the extra resolution to downsample a superb 6K, 4K, and 2K image with less noise and more DR from cleaner shadows. Offer 8K open gate 4:3 anamorphic which no one is doing in mirrorless.

But the single biggest thing Panasonic could do to sell their cameras is:

Offer reliability Phase Detect AF with face and eye tracking. DfD is stigmatized no matter how much they improve it.

FF mirrorless has really taken huge leap in performance in the past 2 years. I'm not sure MFT has a place anymore and I really loved my MFT cameras. I just don't know what they could make, besides a Sony A1 at 1/4 the cost, that would sell.

As a MFT fanboy for many years, Panasonic would do better to focus entirely on FF and fix their AF and compete on their excellent feature while bringing in more cinema level features and color. It's the only way they will stay relevant in the shrinking market.

[kye]

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

People shouldn't be opposed to 8K cameras. As the R5 and now the A1 show, the best thing Panasonic could do to improve a MFT sized sensor image is to aim for 8K and use the extra resolution to downsample a superb 6K, 4K, and 2K image with less noise and more DR from cleaner shadows. Offer 8K open gate 4:3 anamorphic which no one is doing in mirrorless.

But the single biggest thing Panasonic could do to sell their cameras is:

Offer reliability Phase Detect AF with face and eye tracking. DfD is stigmatized no matter how much they improve it.

FF mirrorless has really taken huge leap in performance in the past 2 years. I'm not sure MFT has a place anymore and I really loved my MFT cameras. I just don't know what they could make, besides a Sony A1 at 1/4 the cost, that would sell.

As a MFT fanboy for many years, Panasonic would do better to focus entirely on FF and fix their AF and compete on their excellent feature while bringing in more cinema level features and color. It's the only way they will stay relevant in the shrinking market.

8K open gate would be useful, and would distinguish the camera.

My only objection to 8K is that if you're going to downsample then you have to do the full read-out and more pixels means more RS, and the GH5 is actually really good with RS.

It's funny you say AF and bring in more cinema level features, considering that Hollywood is still mostly manual focus, but you're right that the videographers want AF and the cinematographers want more cine features.

[newfoundmass]

Panasonic's full frame offerings are very good but ultimately they'll have the same problems that M43 had if they can't meet people's expectations. What also puts me off is the weight and cost of the lenses. I paid about $1500 total for my two 12-35mm (version 1 and 2) and 35-100mm (version 1) lenses on the used market. To get their full frame L-mount equivalents would be astronomical. I'd have to get the f/4 versions to get below that, which I'm sure are nice, but that's still about $1500 for each lens. Not to mention my beloved Olympus 7-14 that would cost another $1200 or so to replace. 

I prefer the image I see out of the S1H and the S5 but I don't think I could justify going to their full frame offerings over Sony. Sony just seems like a safer bet, and I could piece together a lens set for my uses for a bit less. 

Blah. I really hate how everything has played out.

[TomTheDP]

2 hours ago, kye said:

8K open gate would be useful, and would distinguish the camera.

My only objection to 8K is that if you're going to downsample then you have to do the full read-out and more pixels means more RS, and the GH5 is actually really good with RS.

It's funny you say AF and bring in more cinema level features, considering that Hollywood is still mostly manual focus, but you're right that the videographers want AF and the cinematographers want more cine features.

Rolling shutter seems to have improved significantly on the latest sensors the Sony A1 and A7S3, so there is hope there. Unfortunately most cameras don't have downsampled 1080p. Its lineskipped on the Panasonic S1 and on most cameras aside from the GH5 and I believe GH5S. Shooting in 4k is acceptable to me though, the new MacBook Air can handle it pretty easily. I do really agree with you though on HD being good enough for most uses. I really am awaiting Z-cam or Panasonic to utilize the Sony A7S3 4k sensor. 

[kye]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

Panasonic's full frame offerings are very good but ultimately they'll have the same problems that M43 had if they can't meet people's expectations. What also puts me off is the weight and cost of the lenses. I paid about $1500 total for my two 12-35mm (version 1 and 2) and 35-100mm (version 1) lenses on the used market. To get their full frame L-mount equivalents would be astronomical. I'd have to get the f/4 versions to get below that, which I'm sure are nice, but that's still about $1500 for each lens. Not to mention my beloved Olympus 7-14 that would cost another $1200 or so to replace. 

I prefer the image I see out of the S1H and the S5 but I don't think I could justify going to their full frame offerings over Sony. Sony just seems like a safer bet, and I could piece together a lens set for my uses for a bit less. 

Blah. I really hate how everything has played out.

Actually, the 12-35/2.8 equivalent for FF is 24-70/5.6 so the 24-70/4 version is better, and the 24-70/2.8 is a FF lens that MFT never offered.

You can make the argument that the 12-35/2.8 is a 2.8 ff equivalent based on exposure, even if it's not equivalent based on DoF, but even then, a FF sensor gathers so much more light that the noise performance and quality of colours is probably the same between MFT at 2.8 and FF at 5.6.

It really irritates me how people adjust for crop factor on focal length but not on aperture, and Panasonic and Olympus even labelled their f2.8 lenses "PRO" which is completely ridiculous.

34 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Rolling shutter seems to have improved significantly on the latest sensors the Sony A1 and A7S3, so there is hope there. Unfortunately most cameras don't have downsampled 1080p. Its lineskipped on the Panasonic S1 and on most cameras aside from the GH5 and I believe GH5S. Shooting in 4k is acceptable to me though, the new MacBook Air can handle it pretty easily. I do really agree with you though on HD being good enough for most uses. I really am awaiting Z-cam or Panasonic to utilize the Sony A7S3 4k sensor. 

I didn't know the 1080p was line-skipped on the newer models, that sucks completely.

It will be interesting to see what Z-Cam or Panasonic (or maybe BM who are always a wildcard) will do with the sensor, considering the Z-cam/BM cameras are a battery, screen, lens mount and a whacking great data processing pipeline to take the data off the sensor and pump it into the card slots or USB interface as quickly as possible.

[SteveV4D]

4 hours ago, kye said:

 

It's funny you say AF and bring in more cinema level features, considering that Hollywood is still mostly manual focus, but you're right that the videographers want AF and the cinematographers want more cine features.

There will be a difference in needs between those who work for a living with video and those who just do it for pleasure.  In addition, the needs of those who do video professionally will differ depending on the work they do.  TV and Movie production with a large team will have dedicated focus pullers.  For videographers shooting events, AF becomes important.  

That said, I've been shooting such events with Panasonic and have coped.  I'm also in favour of more cinema level features.  This doesn't just apply to my professional work, but my own projects too.  

Top of my list for the GH6 is AF as it would be of huge benefit for gimbal shots and tracking movement.  I would also love more edit friendly codecs, improved colour science, and a generally a camera that is more geared to video than photo.  An 8K sensor would be useful for the odd photos I did take and for downsampled 4K.  Plus I'm not adverse to trying some 8K video when the time comes.  Though I'm more interested in HDR than more pixels at the moment. 

The GH6 has a tough task to convince people who have seen Panasonics shift to fullframe in recent years to convince them to continue their MFT investment.  I've got loads of MFT lens, 2 GH4rs, a GH5s, a GH5 and Pocket 4K, so my gear is nearly exclusively MFT, but I'm looking to shift to S35 and fullframe if I can; purely as the industry seems to be going that way.  I'm not yet sold on MF as a thing yet.  Cost is too high for many users and there's still enough issues with fullframe video to improve on before MF becomes accepted.

[Amazeballs]

I just don't believe that Panasonic will ever implement PDAF. For some reason they are stuck with their DFD. I will of course take a look at GH6 specs but my aim is Sony A7IV which will be a perfect camera for me if they deliver what rumors are saying (plus INTERNAL 4k60 10 bit).  M43 is not efficient in terms of lens sizes at all. Sigma 18-35 is fucking huge, 1.2 primes are huge and expensive. I compare that to compact cheap Samyang 1.8 primes or Tamron 2.8 zooms and don't see the point. There is just no reason to use it, unless Panasonic delivers some CRAZY GOOD specs, like amazing sensor, PDAF, eND, 5 inch flip-out screen, internal BRAW.. but that won't happen. I don't believe in Panasonic and M43 anymore. Time to move on.

Fuji might have some fighting change with XH-2 though.

[BTM_Pix]

Next month will mark four years since the GH5 was launched.

Dovetailing into the other thread on here about the increasing cost of cameras, the GH5 with its launch price of $1999 was actually the camera launch that made me think prices were getting out of hand.

I'd always viewed MFT cameras to be the smart, better value and more compact choice even against the DSLR APS-C let alone FF cameras and was epitomised for me by the likes of the GH2, LX100 and GX85.

There is no doubt that the GH5 was and is still proving to be a great camera but, again from my own point of view, it had drifted too close in form and certainly in price to other formats and I felt at the time that they had left themselves a problem when it came to replacing it.

If they launched a GH6 on the fourth anniversary of the launch of the GH5 then even giving it the benefit of the doubt that it would be at the same launch price of $1999 then it would be exactly the same price as their own full frame S5.

Not only does the GH5 lose the value aspect in terms of imaging but it also loses the form factor and weight aspect as well.

I don't know how they square that circle for a GH6 without cutting the price and form factor and adding in something particularly compelling on the imaging side.

The latter is actually a pretty big challenge considering how much the GH5 already has.

The GH6 would probably have to have some or all of the following to significantly add enough to the GH5 to get users to upgrade:

• Internal BRAW or ProResRAW
• Internal ND (electronic or switchable)
• PDAF
• 8K

I'd love to see it but, realistically, I can't.

There is an 8K MFT sensor out there, of course, because Sharp are actually going to release their camera this year but the fact that its pretty much a GX85 style stripped down body with an 8K sensor in it and is going to be $2K shows how much of a premium it would likely add on to an 8K GH6.

Panasonic have been doing some very lacklustre upgrades of their camera models in recent years so it would be a surprise, though a welcome one, to see that pattern reversed with such significant upgrades in the successor to the  GH5.

I'm not saying there won't be a GH6 but its appeal will likely only be as an upgrade for existing GH5 owners and an incremental one at that.

If its $2500 - and based on increasing prices over the lifetime of the GH5 it likely will be - then I can't see many people who haven't already got a reasonably significant stake in MFT buying it.

Without some significant upgrades, it might also bring MFT users including GH5 owners to that fork in the road where they choose another route.

It would be great to think that the GH6 will provide a re-invigoration of MFT and mark it has very much still having a future but my personal view is that if it is as lacklustre as recent Panasonic "upgrades" then it might actually mark the end of it.

If the GH5 does prove to have been the high watermark of the GH series then its not a bad way to bow out.

[SteveV4D]

The GH5 was announced in the latter part of 2016.  So far, there's been nothing, and not even a  hint to even suggest there is one.  Last years underwhelming G100 doesn't inspire much hope that Panasonic are going to push MFT seriously for hybrid users.  I have my list of things I'd need to buy it, but it feels more wishful thinking, aside from the obvious 8K.  

Panasonic will want people to upgrade to fullframe and invest in their new lenses.  Trying to split their users with a new GH camera would counter this, and why I feel they will not release a GH6.  I'd like to be proved wrong, and that the GH6 does arrive ine day and offering more then just GH5 features with an 8K sensor, but its been 4 years now and the longest period since the last model was released.  The longer they leave it, the harder it will be to sell a new high spec MFT camera at the same price point.

[BTM_Pix]

5 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

Its been 4 years now and the longest period since the last model was released.  

This current thread will be 2 years old on Sunday, so that in itself is a measure of how overdue it is if there is to be one.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

Not only does the GH5 lose the value aspect in terms of imaging but it also loses the form factor and weight aspect as well.

Right now, I suspect if the general public could only buy the GH5 or the S5 (ie, no other cameras existed on Planet Earth), more than 95 (95.39% to be precise) would opt for the full frame camera because it's:

Full frame.

Slightly smaller/lighter (real world there's nothing much in it) and yes, most of the FF lenses are monsters but the 20-60mm and 85mm are not bigger or heavier than their 4/3 counterparts and there's more coming.

It's more recent. Much more recent. But still hasn't had a review on DP Review. The slackers.

Without PDAF though, they might as well not bother.

Internal electronic ND would be VERY welcome.

[TomTheDP]

The Pocket 4k is still relevant. Lots of people want compressed RAW and it’s the only affordable option delivering that. But the price point is right where it should be. It hasn’t dropped in price or lost value on the used market. Something like the XT3 started at 1400 quickly dropped in price and only gets $800-$900 on the used market. The features didn’t hold there value against full frame. BRAW on the P4k is more important for a lot of people than sensor size. I think if the specs are good enough and price low enough a GH6 could do well. 8k sensors even if they are M43 probably aren’t cheap. Blackmagic is really profiting off their own BRAW technology which Pana doesn’t have. If Panasonic delivered 8k, 4k 120p, and internal NDs at $1200 it would do very well. I am not sure that’s possible at such a low price point tho.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

My two cents: the GH6 will have a new sensor, probably 8k (because others have, and the Youtube "experts" will kill the camera if only is 4k), and in tradition of the GH series proabably will have a lot of amazing specs (4k120p for sure, and 10 bit-4:2:2).

But still think that Panasonic will stick to DFD, and the camera will sell much less because of it. Maybe if it is a stacked sensor, the could always sample the sensor at lower resolution and with higher fps than the recorded image (the Samsung NX1 allgedly samples its sensor at 120fps, even in 4k) to make DFD more reliable (saw some tests that DFD is much better in 1080p60 than in 1080p24). But still think that wil never be as precise as PDAF.

[TomTheDP]

42 minutes ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

My two cents: the GH6 will have a new sensor, probably 8k (because others have, and the Youtube "experts" will kill the camera if only is 4k), and in tradition of the GH series proabably will have a lot of amazing specs (4k120p for sure, and 10 bit-4:2:2).

But still think that Panasonic will stick to DFD, and the camera will sell much less because of it. Maybe if it is a stacked sensor, the could always sample the sensor at lower resolution and with higher fps than the recorded image (the Samsung NX1 allgedly samples its sensor at 120fps, even in 4k) to make DFD more reliable (saw some tests that DFD is much better in 1080p60 than in 1080p24). But still think that wil never be as precise as PDAF.

I don't think 8k or 120fps will get much attraction with vloggers. The most important thing for vlogging is auto focus, stabilization, and maybe low light performance. Pana's IBIS has always been an attraction for vloggers but if the GH6 doesn't have PDAF I don't see it being any better for vlogging than a GH5 or G85. 

I guess with a higher res 8k sensor it could be a decent hybrid video/photography camera. Though I think its main user base will be video centric people. 

[Origami101]

One thing to note, we're not seeing the steady trickle of rumours from Panasonic you'd expect if the GH6 were imminent. All the 4/3 rumors post that kicked this thread back to life shared was that, yes, Sony's listed a new m4/3 sensor in their catalog. It's pure guesswork that's heading to a GH6. Where're the hints and teases you'd expect from the Panasonic side ('Breaking! the GH6 features [shiny new spec]!'? 

 

[Video Hummus]

8 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Without some significant upgrades, it might also bring MFT users including GH5 owners to that fork in the road where they choose another route.

Yep, and that describes exactly what I did. When they released the S5 without PDAF I saw the writing on the wall. I simply want a camera with excellent AF regardless if I use it 90% of the time or 30% of the time...it's there when I need it.

It's a shame really, Panasonic offers all these excellent features, great camera bodies that double as weapons, good menus, excellent features sets, great firmware updates, but the market demands good AF and they have been left behind.

[newfoundmass]

14 hours ago, kye said:

Actually, the 12-35/2.8 equivalent for FF is 24-70/5.6 so the 24-70/4 version is better, and the 24-70/2.8 is a FF lens that MFT never offered.

You can make the argument that the 12-35/2.8 is a 2.8 ff equivalent based on exposure, even if it's not equivalent based on DoF, but even then, a FF sensor gathers so much more light that the noise performance and quality of colours is probably the same between MFT at 2.8 and FF at 5.6.

It really irritates me how people adjust for crop factor on focal length but not on aperture, and Panasonic and Olympus even labelled their f2.8 lenses "PRO" which is completely ridiculous.

I'm aware, but it's still much more expensive than what I paid to get my current lineup. The bang for buck value M43 has just isn't there. 

[Thpriest]

At present I'm keeping my GH5 and GH5S for streaming and some 2 camera jobs along with the 12-35 2.8 and 35-100 2.8.

I have already sold my Sigma 18-35. The Speedbooster and my Voigtlanders are on sale. I'm going to put the 10-25mm up for sale to. Really great kit but as I had to buy a Sony A7iii for client work I'm thinking about going all in on Sony. 

I love those Panasonics but I would need a really good reason to trust that m43 has a future. I'd suggest that someone tell Panasonic that they need a very clear GH6 announcement very soon before many others jump ship.

[newfoundmass]

Their silence is another thing that doesn't make me feel particularly confident. I know it seems like I'm being negative, I'm honestly looking for a reason to stick with M43, but things have changed rapidly in the last 2 years and everyone has caught up. Back then they were the only one that had all the features they had, so it was easy to make the argument (which I made) that AF wasn't a big deal when they gave you everything else they did. And still, I find the AF on my GH5 to be OK, but I'm also aware that my needs aren't the same as other's needs and for a lot of people AF is one of the main selling points. 

I'm just asking Panasonic to rise to the occasion or at least let us know what's going on so we can make whatever decisions we might need to take. Stop leaving us in the dark, please. 

[kye]

7 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

The Pocket 4k is still relevant. Lots of people want compressed RAW and it’s the only affordable option delivering that. But the price point is right where it should be. It hasn’t dropped in price or lost value on the used market. Something like the XT3 started at 1400 quickly dropped in price and only gets $800-$900 on the used market. The features didn’t hold there value against full frame. BRAW on the P4k is more important for a lot of people than sensor size. I think if the specs are good enough and price low enough a GH6 could do well. 8k sensors even if they are M43 probably aren’t cheap. Blackmagic is really profiting off their own BRAW technology which Pana doesn’t have. If Panasonic delivered 8k, 4k 120p, and internal NDs at $1200 it would do very well. I am not sure that’s possible at such a low price point tho.

That's an interesting observation, maybe adding RAW would be a good strategy.

The GH5 and P4K seem completely different to me, having almost opposite strengths and weaknesses:

• GH5 vs P4K...
• IBIS vs none
• Great battery life vs not
• All-in-one design vs needing a rig
• Great build quality vs not
• h264 vs RAW / Prores
• bitrates capped vs bitrates scale with frame rate 
• complicated UI vs great UI
• hybrid vs cine

If you look at the P4K one of the killer features why you would put up with the terrible battery life and other things is RAW. Giving a GH6 RAW would potentially start to capture why the P4K remains popular.  

With all the new cameras it seems like they're abandoning the decent bitrates on the resolutions other than their flagship modes, so I'm thinking that the natural successor for good image quality might be a compressed RAW format that downscales from the whole sensor.  They're ALL-I so are easy to edit and you also get 12-bit colour which is fantastic.

Maybe a GH6 that does compressed RAW, has upgraded colour science, maybe has some other things like dual ISO etc, maybe that would do well because it would be a way of getting RAW with IBIS in a reliable compact package.
Obviously the biggest omission there is PDAF, but the P4K doesn't have it, so who knows.  All BM cameras have this stigma of poor AF too, and they seem to be offering features that keep people buying.

6 hours ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

My two cents: the GH6 will have a new sensor, probably 8k (because others have, and the Youtube "experts" will kill the camera if only is 4k), 

I disagree - the A7S3 didn't get cancelled by the internet for not having 8K.

I really think that the A7S2 was the spiritual sibling of the GH5 - both were workhorses that had sore points and weren't perfect.  Sony updated the A7S2 with another camera that extended it's usefulness to working pros but didn't go 8K, and the reception was very positive.

Of course, who knows if the GH6 would get a warm welcome if it got a workhorse update, because unfortunately it lacks the PDAF and FF sensor of the A7S3.