Panasonic GH6

[Mark Romero 2]

Here's a side-by-side-by side comparison between GH6, GH5 and S5. Unfortunately she doesn't state whether she is using Dynamic Range boost or what picture profiles or lenses, nor which autofocus settings she is using, so it is going to have only limited value. But at least it is a head-to-head-to head comparison that is "sort of" real world related.

 

[webrunner5]

3 hours ago, sanveer said:

"Featuring a 20% increase in resolution, the GH6 touts a new, higher-res Micro Four Thirds sensor."

Isn't 20MP to 25MP a 25% resolution increase? Or am I missing something? So they count the sensor resolution, beyond the effective pixels? 

Maybe it is the Quad Theory where it really is half that much????

[kye]

14 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

The 2x digital zoom is something I am really missing on my Lumix S1. There is only Full Sensor readout and then two crops for APS-C and a pixel to pixel readout. Last one is for HD only of course. 2x digital HD with potential for downsampling from 3k would have been pretty sweet, also for 4 to 3 formats. 2x crop works for my humble GX85 both in 16 to 9, 1 to 1 and 4 to 3 aspect ratios, latter two in 4K photomode. But none of that is in the S1. Menues are overkill too, despite missing this dear feature.

Hope the GH6 has a menu structure rather like the GH5 but I doubt that

Perfect HD, that´s also something the GH5 stands for and kye has been promoting a great deal. Something I really loved about the GH5 when using it.

I was really happy when I realised that the GH5 2x in 1080p was downsampled - it is even downsampled in the 1080p60 too, so if you shoot 1080p ALL-I codec then you get full-readout and 2x digital zoom downsampled in every framerate, and you also get the 1:1 ETC which is a ~2.5x zoom.

14 hours ago, projectwoofer said:

There’s a way to get downsampled FHD on the S series by using the live cropping mode but set the cropping to the full sensor. It’s only FF 30fps or APS-C 60fps though. Still, much better FHD quality than the regular FHD modes.

How odd that the larger cameras don't have as good video modes in this way.  The GH5 was the flagship though so maybe the S1H has those modes?

7 hours ago, sanveer said:

At 27:45, he mentions 16-bit RAW. Which me6snd that the signal strength (can be further widened and?) can help with exposure latitude making it as good (if better than) RAW codecs on larger cameras. Though he mentions that it's for photo (for now?). Maybe, if it does external 16-bit RAW, that would be superb. Also, I hope Panasonic releases a much thinner version of that awful looking Yagn, for real-time compressions into an external RAW recorder (SSD) at 1:3 to 1:18, thereby circumventing that RED patent and also having a recorded for quicker turnaround. 

Fascinating about the 16-bit output.  I guess it might depend on the sensor mode.  IIRC other sensors sometimes have a higher bit-depth readout mode with limited fps, and then a reduced bit-depth mode where they get higher fps readouts, so maybe the 16-bit can only happen at 10fps or something.  

It would be great to see if that's possible at the 60fps speeds that the DR boost feature can do for video.

5 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

This is a decent point actually, but the GH5 native ISO for V-log is *optimal* rather than compulsory.  You can expose below it and take a slight DR hit.  Whereas the GH6 ISO 2000 requirement is a *minimum* for DR Boost, and if you want to expose at a lower gain setting you take a huge hit by switching to non-boost.

That makes sense.  Potentially then it's quite a different equation for your ND setup, but I keep thinking that all you need to do is work out what the maximum and minimum amount of ND you will need in daylight and just buy a fixed ND that compliments your vND to give you that range.  Then after sunset you remove the fixed ND and your vND should cover the range of shooting under artificial lights.  ISO 2000 should be a good base ISO for most low-light situations, so you should be using your vND even after dark anyway.

5 hours ago, sanveer said:

"Featuring a 20% increase in resolution, the GH6 touts a new, higher-res Micro Four Thirds sensor."

Isn't 20MP to 25MP a 25% resolution increase? Or am I missing something? So they count the sensor resolution, beyond the effective pixels? 

The GH6 is 5760 x 4320 and the GH5 is 5184 x 3456 so if you multiply those out then you get a 38% increase in total number of pixels, or a 11% increase in width, so not entirely sure where they're getting that number either.

Still, it's more pixels, and not stupidly more pixels, which is probably the right balance.

4 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

There is no live cropping on the S1. Crazy. @projectwoofer GH5 is so much more versatile when it comes to filming and crop modes. Owning it for almost two years and three months, I still have not warmed up with my S1 despite the potentially awesome image quality. Seems like the S5 is much more fun with its swivel screen and right handed mode dial operation.

Anyhow, GH6 looks like a winner.

Yeah, odd, but I agree that the GH6 is a winner.

I see so many tiny little improvements they've made - I was contemplating writing a summary of what improvements I see that would be relevant to me in the real world and how I shoot.

4 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Here's a side-by-side-by side comparison between GH6, GH5 and S5. Unfortunately she doesn't state whether she is using Dynamic Range boost or what picture profiles or lenses, nor which autofocus settings she is using, so it is going to have only limited value. But at least it is a head-to-head-to head comparison that is "sort of" real world related.

The ISO performance on the GH6 is pretty darn good!

[sanveer]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Fascinating about the 16-bit output.  I guess it might depend on the sensor mode.  IIRC other sensors sometimes have a higher bit-depth readout mode with limited fps, and then a reduced bit-depth mode where they get higher fps readouts, so maybe the 16-bit can only happen at 10fps or something.  

It would be great to see if that's possible at the 60fps speeds that the DR boost feature can do for video.

I was thinking on similar lines. Either it does it like the photo modes of (single frame) uncompressed RAW on photos, or, that it does it like the Alexas, combining 2x14-RAW channels and creating a 16-bit frame (for video). While it would be superb, either way, if it were for video, it would obviously leapfrog the competition, just like the GH5 did, because it combines 2 exposures, having a lot more dynamic ranges and also having insane exposure latitude (way beyond everything at its price range and a lot beyond). This would mean that Panasonic finally gets much better quality photos (one of the complaints of M43 users was not having photos with much greater exposure latitude, like the 14-bit on larger sensor cameras).

Usually sensor have many different readout speeds at different frame rates. So, it could also be possible, that Panasonic uses this sensor in another specialist camera, that does 16-bit video, instead of on the GH6. Though that would be a huge missed opportunity for the GH6.

[sanveer]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Maybe it is the Quad Theory where it really is half that much????

Actually the Quad (Pixel) Theory is on the OM-1, and it is (IMHO) solely limited to the autofocus pixels. Panasonic's GH6 doesn't have the Quad Pixel CFA.

Interestingly, OM is claiming to working on finalising more features, since the OM has some insane processing capabilities. I am hoping it does 14-bit HDR RAW, by combining multiple frames, like on smartphones. I hope it can also do  smartphone kind of HDR video as well, at 10-bit 4-2-2, instead of merely 4-2-2. 

[sanveer]

2 hours ago, kye said:

I see so many tiny little improvements they've made - I was contemplating writing a summary of what improvements I see that would be relevant to me in the real world and how I shoot.

Please do share the details here, too.

(I find that the GH6 seems to have been improved in so many amazing ways. The 100MP handheld alone is pretty insane.).

[projectwoofer]

9 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

There is no live cropping on the S1. Crazy. @projectwoofer GH5 is so much more versatile when it comes to filming and crop modes. Owning it for almost two years and three months, I still have not warmed up with my S1 despite the potentially awesome image quality. Seems like the S5 is much more fun with its swivel screen and right handed mode dial operation.

Anyhow, GH6 looks like a winner.

That’s crazy indeed! I guess the S1 being the first of the FF line has some functions missing that they added later to the other models. I’m really pleased with the S5, I like the fact that’s it’s light and small but the image quality is there.
 

I’m really not sure why the FHD modes on the S-series are so soft though. @kye I shoot 4K mainly but the occasional FHD pixel pixel mode for extra reach or the ultra slow motion in FHD is sometimes useful. At least, the ultra slow motion from the S5 although still has moire, it’s not that pronounced as in the GH5. The GH5’s 120fps for example is a bit sharper but with much more moire artifacts than the S5’s. Anyway, I’m always upscaling that FHD footage to 4K with an AI upscaler and I know that is not what a purist would do but the upscaled footage looks so nice and usable so I’m happy with the result.

[Mmmbeats]

5 hours ago, kye said:

 

That makes sense.  Potentially then it's quite a different equation for your ND setup, but I keep thinking that all you need to do is work out what the maximum and minimum amount of ND you will need in daylight and just buy a fixed ND that compliments your vND to give you that range.  Then after sunset you remove the fixed ND and your vND should cover the range of shooting under artificial lights.  ISO 2000 should be a good base ISO for most low-light situations, so you should be using your vND even after dark anyway.

I think this is what most people are going to do.  It troubles me though because you are shooting through 3 bits of tinted glass (2 polarised planes in the variable ND).

My experience of variable ND (Tiffen 2 - 8 stops) is mixed.  Around 85% of the time it is fantastic with little to no noticeable cast.  Many shots I forget that there was even any ND used.

But the times when problems are introduced can be very hard to predict.  Weird casts seem to appear based on such criteria as window coatings in buildings (especially office blocks and new-build public buildings), light bouncing off buildings, the sun at certain angles to the filter, etc.   The cast can also range from muddy brown to grey-blue (at high ND's).

It can also play funny with other filtration, such as diffusion.  All of which makes me a little nervous about stacking variable ND with more stuff. 

[92F]

Yes it's not a good thing to put several ND

[kye]

7 hours ago, sanveer said:

I was thinking on similar lines. Either it does it like the photo modes of (single frame) uncompressed RAW on photos, or, that it does it like the Alexas, combining 2x14-RAW channels and creating a 16-bit frame (for video). While it would be superb, either way, if it were for video, it would obviously leapfrog the competition, just like the GH5 did, because it combines 2 exposures, having a lot more dynamic ranges and also having insane exposure latitude (way beyond everything at its price range and a lot beyond). This would mean that Panasonic finally gets much better quality photos (one of the complaints of M43 users was not having photos with much greater exposure latitude, like the 14-bit on larger sensor cameras).

Usually sensor have many different readout speeds at different frame rates. So, it could also be possible, that Panasonic uses this sensor in another specialist camera, that does 16-bit video, instead of on the GH6. Though that would be a huge missed opportunity for the GH6.

I suspect that they might be pushing the limits of the current technology so who knows what would be possible and what wouldn't be possible.

I do know that CPU manufacturers have been hitting limitations on the technology and then having breakthroughs to surpass those limits every few years for decades and decades, and they're normally related to how small you can make things, so having a 6K sensor with all the processing and all the ADCs etc might well be nearing a limit, especially once you factor in the dual-gain functionality.  

Both the C70 DGO sensor and the Alexa ALEV sensors are lower resolution and physically larger, so they might be really pushing it - who knows.

Panasonic were pretty good about squeezing lots of stuff out of the GH5 in firmware updates, so I'd imagine they'll do the same with the GH6, so watch this space 🙂 

4 hours ago, projectwoofer said:

That’s crazy indeed! I guess the S1 being the first of the FF line has some functions missing that they added later to the other models. I’m really pleased with the S5, I like the fact that’s it’s light and small but the image quality is there.
 

I’m really not sure why the FHD modes on the S-series are so soft though. @kye I shoot 4K mainly but the occasional FHD pixel pixel mode for extra reach or the ultra slow motion in FHD is sometimes useful. At least, the ultra slow motion from the S5 although still has moire, it’s not that pronounced as in the GH5. The GH5’s 120fps for example is a bit sharper but with much more moire artifacts than the S5’s. Anyway, I’m always upscaling that FHD footage to 4K with an AI upscaler and I know that is not what a purist would do but the upscaled footage looks so nice and usable so I’m happy with the result.

The slow-motion is one thing the GH6 has really upped, with the 4K120 and 1080p240 10-bit at 800Mbps, which is a huge upgrade from the 1080p 8-bit VFR bitrates on the GH5.

3 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

I think this is what most people are going to do.  It troubles me though because you are shooting through 3 bits of tinted glass (2 polarised planes in the variable ND).

My experience of variable ND (Tiffen 2 - 8 stops) is mixed.  Around 85% of the time it is fantastic with little to no noticeable cast.  Many shots I forget that there was even any ND used.

But the times when problems are introduced can be very hard to predict.  Weird casts seem to appear based on such criteria as window coatings in buildings (especially office blocks and new-build public buildings), light bouncing off buildings, the sun at certain angles to the filter, etc.   The cast can also range from muddy brown to grey-blue (at high ND's).

It can also play funny with other filtration, such as diffusion.  All of which makes me a little nervous about stacking variable ND with more stuff. 

I wear polarising sunglasses basically the whole time I'm outside (Australia has much more glare than most other places) and I frequently see strange things like patterns in different types of safety glass and strange reflections / textures from objects etc that are to do with the polarisation of the light.  Even the blue of the sky doesn't look even because the polarisation of the very left of the sky is different from the middle and from the very right side, so lots of strange polarisation happens in real life.  

I don't shoot with NDs so I normally don't see these issues, but yeah, it's an interesting one.  Might be worthwhile getting a set of fixed NDs to give you flexibility in case you hit something that just reacts strangely with the vNDs you have, and then you can just dial things in and fine-tune with aperture if required.

[Mark Romero 2]

The GH6 is looking better and better to me...

On the other hand, with all the insane deals on the S5 lately (like, $2,200 for the S5 body PLUS the 20-60mm lens PLUS the 85mm f/1.8) you got to think that SOMETHING is up regarding an S5 replacement???

I am, though, a DR junkie, and apparently the a7 IV has close to one more stop of DR than the Panasonic Full Frame S-Series of cameras (S-LOG 3 compared to V-LOG), so I might go that way instead (and yes, give up the great stabilization, the waveforms, the friendly interface, the luminance spot meter, the ability to shoot at 6K if I were ever to get an external recorder).

No idea how S-LOG 3 in aps-c mode on the a7 IV looks though. 

[projectwoofer]

42 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

The GH6 is looking better and better to me...

On the other hand, with all the insane deals on the S5 lately (like, $2,200 for the S5 body PLUS the 20-60mm lens PLUS the 85mm f/1.8) you got to think that SOMETHING is up regarding an S5 replacement???

The S5 is still a relatively new camera, I don't think a replacement comes in the near future. My prediction is: a replacement for the S1H will come first, maybe next year? And after that we could see an S5 replacement, maybe in 2024 or so. I don't think there will be a replacement for the S1 though...

[Mark Romero 2]

9 minutes ago, projectwoofer said:

The S5 is still a relatively new camera, I don't think a replacement comes in the near future. My prediction is: a replacement for the S1H will come first, maybe next year? And after that we could see an S5 replacement, maybe in 2024 or so. I don't think there will be a replacement for the S1 though...

I agree, it is a new camera, and probably will see an S1H replacement soon(ish).

On the other hand, I can always dream, right?

Just saying that if they somehow put PDAF and allowed recording out to an SSD via USB, well, I think you might see a lot of youtubers with videos titles like, "I'm leaving CaNikSony for Panasonic."

[PannySVHS]

@projectwoofer If the S5 only had full HDMI, it would be the perfect camera for me. Crazy, that a thing like live cropping is not on the S1. I mean, it´s on my GX85. What the heck!

5 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

The GH6 is looking better and better to me...

Im, though, a DR junkie, and apparently the a7 IV has close to one more stop of DR than the Panasonic Full Frame S-Series of cameras (S-LOG 3 compared to V-LOG)

Nah, you cannot turn off noise reduction in the A7iv. So they should be about the same regarding "honest" DR.

[projectwoofer]

24 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

@projectwoofer If the S5 only had full HDMI, it would be the perfect camera for me. Crazy, that a thing like live cropping is not on the S1. I mean, it´s on my GX85. What the heck!

Nah, you cannot turn off noise reduction in the A7iv. So they should be about the same regarding "honest" DR.

Yeah, the mini HDMI is a bit of a bummer, on the other hand was thinking, if one would like to use an external recorder wouldn’t a cage be necessary? In that case there’s a nice mini to full HDMI adapter that can be screwed on the case and makes the whole connection much more secure.
Like this one for example: 

https://www.smallrig.com.de/products/smallrig-ultra-slim-4k-hdmi-adapterkabel-c-bis-a-3020?variant=37399680975021&currency=EUR&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gclid=Cj0KCQiA64GRBhCZARIsAHOLriLGQc8X8UW5_kTXTgq4_VQVMo1yulOUnYiewRds8mIJQHooMPRLZucaAjY_EALw_wcB

[Jimmy G]

On 3/1/2022 at 10:46 PM, hyalinejim said:

From official specs it looks like 100 is base ISO for regular profiles:

[Normal]
Dynamic Range Boost OFF (Base ISO 100): Auto / 50 (Extended ISO) / 100-12800
Dynamic Range Boost ON (Creative Video Mode) (Base ISO 800): Auto / 800-12800

[V-Log]
Dynamic Range Boost OFF (Base ISO 250): Auto / 125 (Extended ISO) / 250-12800
Dynamic Range Boost ON (Creative Video Mode) (Base ISO 2000): Auto / 2000-12800

[Hybrid Log Gamma]
Dynamic Range Boost OFF (Base ISO 250): Auto / 250-12800
Dynamic Range Boost ON (Creative Video Mode) (Base ISO 2000): Auto / 2000-12800
 

Good to have that confirmation of what CineD had been reporting...

...and addresses Kye's previous questions...

On 3/1/2022 at 8:36 AM, kye said:

This is where I get confused - there are actually 4 base-ISO settings aren't there?

V-Log with DR boost and without, and non-V-Log profiles with DR boost and without.  I thought that the ISO 250 was the Base ISO for non-Vlog profiles, and the 2000 was for V-Log and DR boost?

...good to know for sure...thanks! 🙂

[Jimmy G]

On 3/2/2022 at 3:19 PM, sanveer said:

At 27:45, he mentions 16-bit RAW. Which me6snd that the signal strength (can be further widened and?) can help with exposure latitude making it as good (if better than) RAW codecs on larger cameras. Though he mentions that it's for photo (for now?). Maybe, if it does external 16-bit RAW, that would be superb. Also, I hope Panasonic releases a much thinner version of that awful looking Yagn, for real-time compressions into an external RAW recorder (SSD) at 1:3 to 1:18, thereby circumventing that RED patent and also having a recorded for quicker turnaround. 

 

Thanks for that panel discussion link, truly informative!

The section that I most wanted answered was regarding whether or not the USB-C port will be able to provide both power and data transfer (e.g. power the unit while recording RAW to an SSD) simultaneously? At the 55:50 mark Panasonic's Matt Fraser goes to check it out with the camera he has but the subject never gets revisited in the video.

If it does turn out to be functional/possible then I would hope that either Panasonic or some 3rd-party folks might also be working on some sort of SSD/battery combo device to fill that need and provide for that functionality? Maybe something in a battery grip design with a short USB-C cable that will both record-from and power-the-unit at the same time?!

To muse further...had they added an HDR rear display (ala Atomos, BlackMagic, etc.), it would then have negated the need for a cumbersome Ninja or VideoAssist for monitoring (?), would make for a tidy and stealthy package for us folks who like-to and need-to travel as light as possible!

____________________________

Regardless of my hopeful ramblings...the camera is shaping up to be a 10-bit internal recording beast, it will be nice to stretch my creative impulses with locational natural-lighting possibilities with the extra DR and bit-depth and see how it helps out in those brutal imaging and lighting environments outdoors (i.e shooting into the sun or against excessive specular highlights, etc.). Fingers still crossed on the whole internal RAW thing (ala Nikon, Canon, etc.) coming to be for this camera. 🙂

 

[kye]

2 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

Fingers still crossed on the whole internal RAW thing (ala Nikon, Canon, etc.) coming to be for this camera.

Panasonic have announced that it'll get external RAW with Atomos recorders.  My question is, have any of the cameras with internal RAW started off with external RAW only?

I'm thinking that the external RAW may be an indicator that they've chosen that direction, rather than internal RAW.

This makes sense, especially considering that Prores is internal, so even those who want to use a professional codec have an option for internal recording and the run-n-gun minimalist approach that this offers.

[Matthew Capowski]

I haven't seen anywhere, does the GH6 have a super 16 crop mode, and if so, what are the resolutions and frame-rates available?

[kye]

53 minutes ago, Matthew Capowski said:

I haven't seen anywhere, does the GH6 have a super 16 crop mode, and if so, what are the resolutions and frame-rates available?

I haven't seen this anywhere either, but the GH5 had that because of the ETC mode and the resolution of the sensor, but now that's changed on the GH6 it'll be interesting to see.

I'd imagine they'd include a 2x digital zoom function, but that will have a crop-factor of 4, rather than the 2.88 for S16.  You could always shoot 5.7K with the custom frame guides set to frame up a S16 crop, then crop in post.  It's cumbersome but possible, although I certainly wouldn't claim it was ideal.