Panasonic GH6

[kye]

On 9/18/2022 at 9:59 PM, MrSMW said:

I have often thought manufacturers shoot themselves in the foot by being so Secret Squirrel about their plans…

Actually, that's not true at all.

Let's imagine that Panasonic announced their plans for the next few years.

Scenario 1: they announce they won't upgrade their AF.  The internet goes bat-shit crazy (the way they always do) and people start trash talking the brand, which causes people to believe the system is going down, which makes people sell to get out, which causes more supply than demand, second-hand prices crash, game over.

Scenario 2: they announce they will have PDAF, certain resolutions/framerates/codecs, and perhaps other features.  Putting such stuff out into the market is basically a commitment (the saying "under-promise and over-deliver" is used for good reason and this would be the opposite) so now the competing brands can work out what they need to do to prevent Panny from having any competitive edge during this time.  Sensor manufacturers now know the public commitments Panny have made, which means that Panny won't have as good a bargaining position when buying sensors.  If Sony make a sensor that Panny need to meet their public promises, how aggressive do you think that will make them when it comes to negotiation?  
Panny will either announce features that are currently available (eg, sensor specs) in which case they will not be cutting edge, and if they announce things that are not yet possible then the sensor manufacturers could deliberately adjust their own strategy so that they can make new products but Panny cannot meet their promises.

Product design for high-tech products like this are typically done in phases where the outcome isn't yet known.  For example, in year 1 they might confirm the overall architecture of the device and (with some rough performance / features as placeholders) would make sure that the controllers and screens and batteries and all the other stuff is worked out.  Year 2 might have working prototypes being built with placeholder chips (maybe you use the latest version of whatever that chip is but know a new version is expected in the final year of development - most chipsets have similar instructions etc so you can kind of prepare for the newer ones in this way).  Then year 3 might be the final year where you get samples of the final chipsets and sensor, do your optimisations to things like sensor configuration (in ARRI they have multiple divisions whose only job is to tweak the sensor and image processing voltages / clock speeds / algorithms etc), and get commercial relationships confirmed like ordering the parts in the quantity you need and arranging deals for codecs and IP stuff.  This is why companies are often pushing products out without the complete set of features, and why things like the GH5 unlocked lots more modes and codecs, deals with RED / BM / Atomos / Apple for codecs are often added after launch or shipping, etc.

So in the final year you have a few versions of a working camera but haven't confirmed which sensor you'll use, so you can release a camera with the older one (and probably price it a little less) or go with the newer one and have better specs and charge more.  If you announce your roadmap you're giving away all your options when these stages of the camera design arrive.

It might be a nice thing to have as a consumer, but it would completely screw the company.

[Thpriest]

Maybe so but it’s a balancing act. Panasonic did well with their L mount lens road map. We could see the cameras were going to be supported by a great range of lenses.

Whilst the AF in the m4/3 line has improved a bit it’s not enough. Panasonic needs to show us they are going to get it right in the next generation S line cameras. I know so many freelancers like me that rely on AF on a second camera in an interview. My Panasonics have never managed to pull that off without some kind of focus hunting or wobble going on at times. If I new they were going to resolve that I’d be investing in more of their lenses now.

[newfoundmass]

First, I genuinely believe that Panasonic not only offers the best value, but their video capabilities are significantly better than their competitors. 

Still, I think it's important for Panasonic to be more aggressive in letting people know what their plans are and to meet the needs of the market. Sony and Canon don't need to do it because they're leading the industry, but Panasonic absolutely does. I don't know how else to say it, but the auto focus perception is killing them. I will maintain until I'm blue in the face that the AF isn't as bad as people claim, but the bottom line is people demand Sony and Canon level AF. It is what it is, and the longer they delay it the worse their long term prospects seem. 

[TomTheDP]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

First, I genuinely believe that Panasonic not only offers the best value, but their video capabilities are significantly better than their competitors. 

Still, I think it's important for Panasonic to be more aggressive in letting people know what their plans are and to meet the needs of the market. Sony and Canon don't need to do it because they're leading the industry, but Panasonic absolutely does. I don't know how else to say it, but the auto focus perception is killing them. I will maintain until I'm blue in the face that the AF isn't as bad as people claim, but the bottom line is people demand Sony and Canon level AF. It is what it is, and the longer they delay it the worse their long term prospects seem. 

 

I feel like their cameras are close to Cinema level but far enough away that they mostly attractive the low level + consumer crowd. Which is why auto focus is probably holding them back.

I'd love to see them put out something like the FX6. There 6k 3:2 option has made me consider buying an S1 again with all the cheaper anamorphic lenses coming out. 

[kye]

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Sony and Canon don't need to do it because they're leading the industry, but Panasonic absolutely does.

Which means that Sony and Canon can afford to do it and Panasonic absolutely cannot.

I find it amusing that people are so self-entered when it comes to what they want.  As a customer they declare that the best strategy for a brand is to basically do everything they could possibly want, and then as a business, those people will turn around and criticise their own customers for not understanding the realities of what it takes to run a business.

Most of the claims that people on here make about cameras are equivalent to the delusional demands that a bridezilla would make at the first sign that the work doesn't revolve around them.

*shrug*

Panasonic makes cameras exactly the same as any other manufacturer - some good points and some bad points.  If you want good AF then Canon will gladly accept you as a customer once you've been knocked in the side of the head with the cripple-hammer, or go to Sony who will gladly have you as a customer once you've been smashed in the wallet with their price-hammer.

[kye]

40 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

I feel like their cameras are close to Cinema level but far enough away that they mostly attractive the low level + consumer crowd. Which is why auto focus is probably holding them back.

...or who don't know enough about cameras to have moved on from AF being the only topic they think matters.

Do we have any idea how things like the BGH1 sold?  I heard basically nothing online about it, so I'd assume that the market for Panasonic small cine-style cameras probably isn't that big.  and if it didn't sell then Panasonic won't be rushing into that segment either.

[TomTheDP]

7 minutes ago, kye said:

...or who don't know enough about cameras to have moved on from AF being the only topic they think matters.

Do we have any idea how things like the BGH1 sold?  I heard basically nothing online about it, so I'd assume that the market for Panasonic small cine-style cameras probably isn't that big.  and if it didn't sell then Panasonic won't be rushing into that segment either.

Yeah but the BGH1 was so bare bones compared the FX6 imho. I am just speculating here based on my own thoughts though. I never use auto focus so it doesn't at all matter to me. If the S1 had raw internal like the FP I would have held onto it. 

[kye]

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

Yeah but the BGH1 was so bare bones compared the FX6 imho. I am just speculating here based on my own thoughts though. I never use auto focus so it doesn't at all matter to me. If the S1 had raw internal like the FP I would have held onto it. 

Yes, the FX6 is a much more 'complete' cinema camera in that way, no doubt.  I mentioned it just because I think that's the only real venture that Panasonic has made in the direction of a more cinema camera since the EVA1, which was what - 4 years ago.  

Considering the headway that other brands have made in the small cine form-factor (Komodo, C70, FX6, etc), maybe there's a place there for an appropriately sized Panasonic camera?  Would be interesting to see what they'd come up with.

[TomTheDP]

11 minutes ago, kye said:

Yes, the FX6 is a much more 'complete' cinema camera in that way, no doubt.  I mentioned it just because I think that's the only real venture that Panasonic has made in the direction of a more cinema camera since the EVA1, which was what - 4 years ago.  

Considering the headway that other brands have made in the small cine form-factor (Komodo, C70, FX6, etc), maybe there's a place there for an appropriately sized Panasonic camera?  Would be interesting to see what they'd come up with.

I guess the EVA1 was never a big seller. They really skimped on the quality with that one though, felt so cheap. It kind of has a new life now with the BM Video Assist RAW capabilities. 

I have been interested in the BGH1, but I heard that there is latency from the SDI, which would be a bummer if true. 

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I don't know how else to say it, but the auto focus perception is killing them. I will maintain until I'm blue in the face that the AF isn't as bad as people claim, but the bottom line is people demand Sony and Canon level AF. It is what it is, and the longer they delay it the worse their long term prospects seem.

Ditto, the perception of their AF, particularly on social media, especially YouTube. 

There are ‘Why I switched to Panny’ posts for sure, but for every one and every positive comment, there are 9 negatives and those 9 negatives based on limited or zero use, ie, most just repeating a myth/perception.

The reality is in most situations for my use case it’s more than good enough, but the fact remains it is the weakest (by far) of the main manufacturers who produce ‘hybrid’ cameras, principally; Fuji, Nikon, Canon and Sony.

They do not need to do too much to retain my business as my move to Nikon is not yet a done deal.

As things stand, there is nothing else available that can equal my 3 body/4 lens planned Nikon future…

…unless Panny can spring something soon that ticks the same boxes.

Unlike Kye’s opinion, I don’t think there is anything wrong with wishing for better things from a system you are heavily invested in but everyone is entitled to an opinion!

I’m also a fan of the underdog and the unorthodox.

Part of my attraction to Fuji and for the decade I used them was because they were the underdog that overachieved.

I would not invest in a system just because they were the underdog, - I still have certain requirements that have to be checked off and one reason I did not go down the Sigma FP/L route, - just a few too many dealbreakers and even a single one is enough to say no.

But L Mount as a whole has now reached a point…or rather I have reached a conclusion, does so many things so well, but it turns out has a couple of chinks in it’s armour I have not been able to overcome.

AF is not actually one of those chinks. At least not at dealbreaker level. For me.

It’s turned out to be the 1.5x crop for 4K 50p and recording limits on the S1R’s.

There’s still a chance for me with L Mount but they need to come up with ‘my’ spec camera really soon or I cannot see any other future than the one I am currently headed for.

[kye]

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Unlike Kye’s opinion, I don’t think there is anything wrong with wishing for better things from a system you are heavily invested in but everyone is entitled to an opinion!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, it would just be nice to have more than one or two comments in a row in a Panny thread that didn't talk about AF.

It's like in the entire world of film-making that nothing else exists.  It makes it so that nothing else can be discussed, doesn't add anything new to the discussion and just wastes everyones time.

[PannySVHS]

I would love to hear more about image quality, also compared to the Lumix S line. Lowlight and absolute dynamic range is a stellar feat of the S line. But cameras like bmmcc, bmcc have great motion, color, awesome color response i  grading. Motion with my bmmcc looks so beautiful, camera motion is top notch. Imagewise I often prefer my bmmcc over my S1, despite its much, much weaker lowlight and HD only compared to the 4k/6k S1.

Would to hear more from @deezid
how well gh6 fares compared to the Lumix S line. He was a great fan of the artefact free cinema worthy image of the full frame Panasonic cameras. And he didnt love the internal image from the Fuji xh2s.

Also @hyalinejim
would love to hear your observations. Still a great fan of your gh5 observations. @kye
like you i am seeing these kinda cameras as MF beauties. Side note I like the af for photo since my gf1. I got the blazingly fast 14mm now. Fun tiny lens, which was part of a large Gh4 package, with many Cmount lenes and adpaters snd more. I couldnt resist. 🙂 And Gh6 feels growingly tempting from film iq and usuabilty poinf of view. Btw gh6 even betters gh5s in lowlight, holds onto resolution and colour much better, as you can check out on youtube.

What i would like to see: S16 crop mode like the Gh5 has, Hd full sensor modes, S16 4to3 mode with full s16 width, 16 and 2/3 inch modes. Thank you! 🙂

 

[Thpriest]

I think Panasonic offers the best value and an incredible image. I had the GH5 and GH5S for years. The 10-25 f1.7 was a fantastic lens. I have a S1 and S5 now and the only thing I miss is no crop in 4K 50p.

The problem with Panasonic AF is reliability. If I could control when it is going to hunt or wobble it’s be ok but sometimes it just seems to forget that it has to have something in focus in AFC! 
 

But I still am sticking with them as everything else is great.

[deezid]

3 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I would love to hear more about image quality, also compared to the Lumix S line. Lowlight and absolute dynamic range is a stellar feat of the S line. But cameras like bmmcc, bmcc have great motion, color, awesome color response i  grading. Motion with my bmmcc looks so beautiful, camera motion is top notch. Imagewise I often prefer my bmmcc over my S1, despite its much, much weaker lowlight and HD only compared to the 4k/6k S1.

Would to hear more from @deezid
how well gh6 fares compared to the Lumix S line. He was a great fan of the artefact free cinema worthy image of the full frame Panasonic cameras. And he didnt love the internal image from the Fuji xh2s.

 

The GH6 is my favorite MFT camera atm.
Best processing and color science to me and already asked Panasonic Lumix engineers for an optional Sharpening OFF (maybe -1 sharpening like the S1H did with NR).

To be fair no other MFT cameras but the GH5 II was completely sharpening free and maybe the BMD P4K with CDNG before BRAW became a thing but had heavy Gen 4 color science flaws like gamut clipping.

The S series line up is a bit cleaner, perfect for greenscreen work but color science on the GH6 is definitely better.

The X-H2S doesn't work for me with its heavy chroma filtering, especially in dark areas, but also heavy oversharpening.

 

[FHDcrew]

GH5 II had no internal sharpening?  That’s very cool. NLOG on my Z6 feels a bit over sharpened; I’m thinking of going the Prores RAW update to be able to bypass sharpening and NR. 

[TomTheDP]

1 hour ago, deezid said:

The GH6 is my favorite MFT camera atm.
Best processing and color science to me and already asked Panasonic Lumix engineers for an optional Sharpening OFF (maybe -1 sharpening like the S1H did with NR).

To be fair no other MFT cameras but the GH5 II was completely sharpening free and maybe the BMD P4K with CDNG before BRAW became a thing but had heavy Gen 4 color science flaws like gamut clipping.

The S series line up is a bit cleaner, perfect for greenscreen work but color science on the GH6 is definitely better.

The X-H2S doesn't work for me with its heavy chroma filtering, especially in dark areas, but also heavy oversharpening.

 

Yeah the XH2S indeed looks over sharpened. It's obvious when compared to the bmpc6k and Komodo, because it looks a good deal sharper. 

[newfoundmass]

13 hours ago, kye said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, it would just be nice to have more than one or two comments in a row in a Panny thread that didn't talk about AF.

It's like in the entire world of film-making that nothing else exists.  It makes it so that nothing else can be discussed, doesn't add anything new to the discussion and just wastes everyones time.

I agree, but I acknowledge what they need to do and that the long term viability of their camera division depends on getting rid of the AF stigma.

It's one thing when it's people just repeating the things they saw on YouTube but never have had actual experience with a Panasonic camera, but I own a S5, a GH5, a G85, and a GX85. I've also owned the GH3. I use these cameras for professional work, and have an interest in seeing Panasonic succeed because I am invested in their systems. While the autofocus performance on the GH5 was always better than people gave it credit for, and I find the S5 to be pretty good in that department overall, that doesn't matter if the majority of the market thinks that Panasonic AF is completely useless. The market has spoken, whether we agree or not, and they need to do something about it.

The S5 is genuinely my favorite camera I've ever used. I'll probably end up buying at least one more, given the price and quality. But I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that my eyes are looking towards the future, and it's becoming increasingly harder for me to see myself sticking with Panasonic if they can't guarantee their longevity in a shrinking camera market. I want my camera equipment to be serviceable, and I don't want to be stuck with a bunch of lenses and accessories that belong to a dead system. A lot of folks don't care about that stuff, bless their hearts, but I do. If in the next couple of years a Canon/Sony/Fuji camera comes along that offers everything I need for my specific kind of work and at a good value, it will be very hard not to unload my Panasonic gear while it still has some value and move on if they haven't improved their image problems.

There are a lot of people like @MrSMW and myself who are looking for a reason NOT to jump. The ball is in Panasonic's court whether we do or not.

[newfoundmass]

19 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I feel like their cameras are close to Cinema level but far enough away that they mostly attractive the low level + consumer crowd. Which is why auto focus is probably holding them back.

I'd love to see them put out something like the FX6. There 6k 3:2 option has made me consider buying an S1 again with all the cheaper anamorphic lenses coming out. 

I have no doubt that if they'd switched to PDAF 3 or 4 years ago they'd be neck and neck with Canon and Sony. Sony no doubt has their diehard fans, but a Lumix S1 or S5 with PDAF would've been THE YouTuber camera. Whether we like them or not, those are the users that will help ensure a company's longevity.

[MrSMW]

11 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I have no doubt that if they'd switched to PDAF 3 or 4 years ago they'd be neck and neck with Canon and Sony. Sony no doubt has their diehard fans, but a Lumix S1 or S5 with PDAF would've been THE YouTuber camera. Whether we like them or not, those are the users that will help ensure a company's longevity.

They only needed to do it 2 years ago with the S5…but even if possible, that would have severely compromised the S1 line for sure.

S1 probably too big/heavy to be a YouTubers fave I suspect…

It does keep coming back to the same old thing for me and that they are ALL good enough and ALL of them are compromised in one way or another be it price or size or weight or some ‘missing’ feature etc.

For me, the new Hassleblad is the king for stills…but it lacks any video capability and for me, that’s a dealbreaker.

The Z9 is the best hybrid (all of these my opinion for my needs BTW) but the size & weight…

R5? Questionable potential overheating…

A7iv? Cropped 4K 50p.

Lumix S bodies? Cropped 4K 50p and a bit of a size & weight issue S1 line.

Lumix GH6? M4/3 for my stills needs is an issue as is the AF.

OM-1? Just the stills and flip out screen actually but for me, beats GH6.

XH2/S? Closest to my needs…but as a pairing with my sole ‘issue’ being flip out side screen.

12 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

There are a lot of people like @MrSMW and myself who are looking for a reason NOT to jump. The ball is in Panasonic's court whether we do or not.

Indeed. Preorder went in on the off-chance I could get an XH2 and lens prior to my final job until March next year as nothing beats a real wedding when it comes to…well wedding capture 😜

There are still 4 working days left but with zero notification, it’s looking unlikely but yes, that ball is in Panasonics hands entirely. Well Panny plus Sigma and Leica actually because it would only take one of them to produce a body that meets my minimum requirement. Panny is most likely, but I’d go and will go whatever direction, whatever brand, zero loyalty, who can produce the closest to my needs by the end of next Feb absolute latest.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

Saw an article somewhere talkin about this new "joint venture" between Panasonic and Leica, and mentioning that "PDAF is a possibility". I guess that it is a good "way" to move to PDAF without having to admit their "defeat" on DFD, saying "with the joint collaboration with Leica we could bring a new AF method", something along these lines.

Panasonic was stubborn for ages to not implement IBIS in their cameras, saying that OIS was a much better solution - until they caved in because of the Olympus's IBIS success, and now they have one of the best stabilizations on market.

Japanese pride make camera manufacturers VERY stubborn.