Panasonic GH6

[John Matthews]

8 hours ago, kye said:

I have the GH5 and GX85 but not the GH6, but I absolutely agree that although the GX85 is a great 4K 8-bit camera, the 1080p on the GH5 is in another league entirely.  Prior to the GH5 I was using the XC10 and shooting C-Log, which in theory is a better colour science and a better codec, but the XC10 is only 8-bit and is way noisier, and you can absolutely tell the difference in post.  Watching colour grading tutorials with ARRI footage they seem to be able to push and pull it anywhere in basically any direction and it just goes there flawlessly - the GH5 feels like that in post.

I've (finally) worked out colour management in Resolve and graded a bunch of clips from different cameras and the files from the GH5 were the easiest to grade by a large margin.

The fact the GH6 has more modes / frame-rates / codec options would just be better again than the GH5.  I have heard it is noisier though.

IMO, the biggest difference between the GH6 and other Lumix cameras is the colors, almost from any profile. Record a human in a scene and the difference is genuinely eye-popping. I've also seen side-by-sides of other FF Lumix cameras and I still prefer the GH6 colors. Maybe it's because of the bit-depth or processing,  but it's definitely there. Granted, you can probably match them.

[ac6000cw]

On 7/8/2023 at 5:36 PM, John Matthews said:

Thanks for that. I can't tell any difference in those two frames in terms of detail. I know the GH6 has many more codec options and frame rates available over the GH5, but when it comes to pure image quality of 1080p 10bit at 24, 25,30, 50, and 60, I just wasn't sure. I've also heard the GH5s and G9 are exceptional (not sure for their 1080p). I was thinking about it earlier and I have to wonder if the GH6 has better noise performance in 1080p, due to the different sensor and processor. There must be some there.

I know my GH2 shoots WAY wider than most other M43 cameras, but I wasn't aware of any difference between the GH6 and other M43 cameras. Could this be due to a different tripod plate? The difference is so minor.

 

On 7/8/2023 at 10:49 PM, kye said:

I have the GH5 and GX85 but not the GH6, but I absolutely agree that although the GX85 is a great 4K 8-bit camera, the 1080p on the GH5 is in another league entirely.

Of the Panasonic cameras I've owned:

The 1080p on the G9 is superb (GH5 standard AFAIK), as is the 4k. MIx 1080p and 4k on a 4k timeline and it's not that obvious which is which unless you pixel-peep (and that's 28Mbps long-GOP 1080 50p versus 150Mps 4k 50p too!).

The 1080p on the GX80/GX85 is a bit soft, the G80 is sharper but more prone to aliasing. Neither is in the same league as the G9 - but that's a rather larger and heavier camera, so there's swings and roundabouts and I really like the feel of the GX80 in the hand. Whereas the G80 just feels 'functional' and soul-less...

(A bit off-topic, but about a week ago I succumbed to a used OM-1 at a very good price - not had a lot of time to test it, but the video quality seems a big step up from the E-M1 iii - the 1080p in particular, which I wasn't expecting - it looks generally much cleaner and more detailed. An OM-1 versus G9 1080p comparison using the same lens might be interesting...).

 

[John Matthews]

Panasonic just released firmware 2.3. In it, there are various things. I'd be interested in knowing some thoughts of users. I feel like it's a bigger update than they previously said.

 

[John Matthews]

I feel like there's a little less delay when making short sequential clips. There's a little more delay on the first clip, but it seems to start and stop a little better. Does anyone else have that impression?

[kye]

12 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Panasonic just released firmware 2.3. In it, there are various things. I'd be interested in knowing some thoughts of users. I feel like it's a bigger update than they previously said.

 

Not a user, but having RAW 5.7K60 and C4K120 and 4.4K anamorphic seems a lot like it's now in cinema camera territory.  Things like the ability of RED cameras to have RAW at high frame rates was one of the things that I thought separated them from the usual prosumer cameras that mere mortals like I could afford.

Maybe I'm just behind the times, but if you were shooting something serious like high-end music videos / high-end docs / low-budget features and had the ability for 5.7K up to 60p (for those emotional/surreal moments) and also C4K 120p for any special effects shots (like if shooting an emotional sports doco) then it makes it a serious camera for those tasks.

[John Matthews]

5 hours ago, kye said:

Not a user, but having RAW 5.7K60 and C4K120 and 4.4K anamorphic seems a lot like it's now in cinema camera territory.  Things like the ability of RED cameras to have RAW at high frame rates was one of the things that I thought separated them from the usual prosumer cameras that mere mortals like I could afford.

Maybe I'm just behind the times, but if you were shooting something serious like high-end music videos / high-end docs / low-budget features and had the ability for 5.7K up to 60p (for those emotional/surreal moments) and also C4K 120p for any special effects shots (like if shooting an emotional sports doco) then it makes it a serious camera for those tasks.

It's WAY more than what I need! I would have probably purchased a G9 hadn't it been for the ridiculously low price, new, with 3 year warranty for a flagship product. I have absolutely no need for it other than creativity.

I'm going to watch the Lumix live stream tomorrow as I think they'll say something. Still, the bigger feature for me is the high frame rates on an external SSD.

[John Matthews]

I'm not sure this was covered, but I have seen some people ask if the GH6 will receive ProRes LT. It probably won't. Lumix USA covered it in this week's stream. Basically, they say their 400Mbps, 600Mbps, 800Mbps ALL-I codecs are equivalent to ProRes LT, ProRes, and ProRes HQ in terms of quality and edit-ability. Not sure how accurate that actually is.

 

[kye]

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I'm not sure this was covered, but I have seen some people ask if the GH6 will receive ProRes LT. It probably won't. Lumix USA covered it in this week's stream. Basically, they say their 400Mbps, 600Mbps, 800Mbps ALL-I codecs are equivalent to ProRes LT, ProRes, and ProRes HQ in terms of quality and edit-ability. Not sure how accurate that actually is.

 

This page is my reference for bitrates and other technical details:

https://blog.frame.io/2017/02/13/compare-50-intermediate-codecs/

It doesn't show all the resolutions, but Prores is a constant bitrate-per-pixel (so UHD is 4x 1080p and DCI4K is 4x 2K) so you can always figure it out for custom resolutions.

That said, for UHD, the bitrates are: HQ is 707Mbps, 422 is 471Mbps and LT is 328Mbps.  

If their 5.7K is the same aspect ratio as UHD then it would be 2.2x the number of pixels and bitrate.  I guess 400Mbps isn't that far off if that's for 5.7K.  I know that 1080p HQ is about 175Mbps, and the attraction for me was that UHD Prores Proxy was 145Mbps, so you get the benefit of the higher res without the ridiculous data rates.  Still, 400Mbps isn't that much more than 175Mbps.

[John Matthews]

2 hours ago, kye said:

This page is my reference for bitrates and other technical details:

https://blog.frame.io/2017/02/13/compare-50-intermediate-codecs/

It doesn't show all the resolutions, but Prores is a constant bitrate-per-pixel (so UHD is 4x 1080p and DCI4K is 4x 2K) so you can always figure it out for custom resolutions.

That said, for UHD, the bitrates are: HQ is 707Mbps, 422 is 471Mbps and LT is 328Mbps.  

If their 5.7K is the same aspect ratio as UHD then it would be 2.2x the number of pixels and bitrate.  I guess 400Mbps isn't that far off if that's for 5.7K.  I know that 1080p HQ is about 175Mbps, and the attraction for me was that UHD Prores Proxy was 145Mbps, so you get the benefit of the higher res without the ridiculous data rates.  Still, 400Mbps isn't that much more than 175Mbps.

They said in the live stream that they were considering ProRes Proxy, but they need to have enough people who want it (go to the comments section of the youTube video). I'm not really sure they'd do it though.

Thanks for the link. It's quite comprehensive. Personally, I don't need ProRes. I'd rather bake in my noise reduction rather than increase render times.

[John Matthews]

On 7/14/2023 at 12:12 PM, kye said:

I know that 1080p HQ is about 175Mbps, and the attraction for me was that UHD Prores Proxy was 145Mbps, so you get the benefit of the higher res without the ridiculous data rates.

Is this what you do? That sounds like a winner.

[kye]

3 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Is this what you do? That sounds like a winner.

Not really, and it's sort-of complicated.  The short version is I choose the mode with the bit-rate and codec I want, then look at what resolution options the camera gives for those settings.

The long version is that it's more complicated, and you should really do tests to see what works best for you as it might vary between situations, for example if it involves more or less movement in the frame, more or less noise in the image, etc.

At a high-level, there are a few advantages to shooting at the delivery resolution:

• The downsampling happens in-camera, rather than in your NLE, so it should be faster in post
• Rolling shutter might be less
• Bit depth on the sensor read-out might be higher

But, there are also some advantages to shooting a higher resolution and downsampling in post:

• Downsampling in post is likely to be higher quality than in-camera, because in-camera it has to be done real-time and things like battery life and heat dissipation are considerations
• Any non-native resolutions might involve line-skipping, pixel binning and other non-optimal downsampling, which this may avoid
• Compression artefacts tend to scale with the resolution, so downsampling to timeline resolution in post lessens how visible these are
• You can punch-in in post more if the need arises, which also occurs when stabilising
• For a given bitrate the image quality is normally higher at a higher resolution, so you're starting with a better position

For my setup, I shoot the GH5 in the 200Mbps ALL-I mode because it's ALL-I and therefore is nicer in post.  I decided this over the 150Mbps 4K mode because that is IPB, making it much more intensive to edit with, and also over the 400Mbps 4K ALL-I mode because that would require me to buy a UHS-II card which was hugely expensive.
However, I shoot the GX85 in the 4K 100Mbps IPB mode rather than the 1080p 20Mbps IPB mode.  The 4K mode is IPB, but having 100Mbps is more important than the editing performance.  I'd rather have a 100Mbps ALL-I mode, but if we're wishing for things then we'd be changing topics, so I choose the best from what I have.

In terms of the GH6 and Prores, they're all 10-bit ALL-I modes (as they should be!) so the performance in post is mostly a moot point compared to IPB codecs, so it's probably more a case of making the trade-off between disk space and if you need the extra resolution for anything in-particular.

I think with projects that are more straight-forwards then shooting at 200Mbps 1080p is perfectly sufficient.  Remember that many low-budget feature films were shot with 1080p Prores HQ around 170-180Mbps and they were screened in theatres on screens larger than the walls of most private home-theatres, so the image quality should be sufficient for anything we could be doing.  
If you're shooting in uncontrolled situations where post is difficult, or if you're unsure what the footage will be used for in future, or if you're doing VFX, essentially if there are any special circumstances around the project, then having more resolution and MUCH higher bitrates might be worthwhile.

There's an argument to be made for shooting slightly higher than the delivery resolution, at maybe 2.5K for a 1080p master, so that's something to think about as a sort-of middle ground, if that is available in the GH6 - I'm not that aware of what modes it offers and I know the GH5 has some intermediate sizes, like 3.3K 4:3 in the anamorphic modes.

[Davide DB]

Any rumors on GH7 ora a GH6 successor with PDAF?

Perhaps panasonic is still capitalizing on the releases of the S5II/S5II-X? Yet with Sony's new releases they should get a move on.

[MrSMW]

The wait for the GH6 was years.

I suspect any GH7 might not be perhaps as long but I wouldn’t imagine anything sooner than 2025?

Just speculating…

[Davide DB]

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

The wait for the GH6 was years.

I suspect any GH7 might not be perhaps as long but I wouldn’t imagine anything sooner than 2025?

Just speculating…

At that time we will have A6800 and FX40... 

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, Davide DB said:

At that time we will have A6800 and FX40... 

At least…

I think they should have either launched the GH6 sooner than they did, or waited even longer and gave it PDAF.

For me, it was a moment like when Fuji released the XH1 only to pop out the XT3 6 months later.

GH6 and S5ii…

I know we can’t always have everything we want, when we want it and the GH6 ticks a lot of boxes for many but the lack of phase and the need to shoot what is it, 2000 iso to get the most DR requiring a lot of ND? 

I went off it at that point and tried an OM-1 which I loved…except not so much video.

M4/3 died for me then. Not because there is anything inherently wrong with it, just that APSC and FF offers me more of what I personally want.

I would like to see the format developed and who knows. I never say never, just what works.

[PannySVHS]

M43 is even more attractive to me now for my own personal artistic film and photo pleasure. Just bought a red GM5 and got a G1 and G3 some weeks ago, both of them for 24 Euro with shipping! I agree though regarding the GH6. Panasonic should have either marketed it differently as a true cinema camera or have given it PdAF. @MrSMW Besides that, it should offer a true zero sharpening setting like the GH5 II does and Braw to SSD. Too bad one has to lump a monitor around for it.

At least Braw on the GH6 offers highlight recovery. But so does the P4K. Only found one video so far on youtube about highlight recovery on the GH6. Don't know if the benefits of the Dual Gain sensor are supported.

 

 

[John Matthews]

19 hours ago, Davide DB said:

At that time we will have A6800 and FX40... 

Those will just be firmware updates of the A6700 and FX30 with a couple of features removed and rebranded as "new". Isn't that how Sony rolls? Mark my words: "the A7S3 will NEVER get animal detect".

[Davide DB]

I film 99% underwater and very deep so for me a small setup is paramount. M43 ticks alla my requirements and I'm happy with my  GH5, GH5S and GH5M2 except.... AF.

A good underwater housing costs about 4500 euro and it's tailored on a specific model. So an upgrade for underwater shooting is very expensive. IMO GH6 fratures doesn't worth 4000 euro plus the camera body.

I will consider to upgrade only for PDAF. You cannot imagine what Sony autofocus is capable of underwater. It's the market standard but I hate Sony colors.

[John Matthews]

2 hours ago, Davide DB said:

I film 99% underwater and very deep so for me a small setup is paramount.

That makes a lot of sense to stick with a GH5s. Hopefully, the S5ii's AF will get into the M43 cameras. I think it will. It basically is with Olympus cameras. Actually, have you tried the OM-1? I know a lot of pros use Olympus cameras underwater.

[kye]

13 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Those will just be firmware updates of the A6700 and FX30 with a couple of features removed and rebranded as "new". Isn't that how Sony rolls? Mark my words: "the A7S3 will NEVER get animal detect".

I never thought about it that way but I think you're right......  Sony delivers enormously expensive firmware updates, they just come with a free camera!