Panasonic GH6

[sanveer]

Is there some way to stop the FF trolling on this thread? 

[BTM_Pix]

23 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Is there some way to stop the FF trolling on this thread? 

Only if @Andrew Reid pops in and ups the ante with some GFX100 MF trolling of the FF trolling  

[eleison]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

Only if @Andrew Reid pops in and ups the ante with some GFX100 MF trolling of the FF trolling  

 

MF?????  Don't give the Hollywood studio's any new ideas.  I'm still waiting for advance consumer/prosumer full frame cameras to catch up with the big boys.  I want to be on full frame for a while before the industry starts to make my mouth water towards even larger format cameras.......... and then we can start this debate all over again (but instead of m43, it will be full size vs MF :-)

[eleison]

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Those are still a very very small niche of the total number of commercial productions made. 

You can't even buy an Alexa 65

  

This. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Arri LF wouldn't even exist if Arri could have launched their 4K S35 sensor first. Unfortunately that is taking them a lot of time, that was meant to come out this year, but has already been pushed back to next year. 
 

True.  Full frame is niche compared to the total number of commercial productions made.  However, S35 is very popular.  But then, one has to sift through a lot of chaff, to get to the grain (look at the cream de la cream, and see what the DP's are using).  That being said, both format are larger than m43.

It seems like Arri doesn't even care for the 4k s35 sensor any more since they keep delaying it and putting their resources in larger sensors. Oh, well.. fun times.  At this rate, it seems like in 5 years, I will probably be lusting after MF.  Darn it, GAS!!!

[Thomas Hill]

8 hours ago, eleison said:

I want to be on full frame for a while before the industry starts to make my mouth water towards even larger format cameras.....

Then I suggest that you avoid Andrew's GFX article and related threads like the plague or at least like the covid 19.

[IronFilm]

12 hours ago, eleison said:

It seems like Arri doesn't even care for the 4k s35 sensor any more since they keep delaying it and putting their resources in larger sensors. Oh, well.. fun times.  At this rate, it seems like in 5 years, I will probably be lusting after MF.  Darn it, GAS!!!

Their larger sensors is just the same sensor but a bigger cut of the sensor wafer. 

It's their work around to get 4K until their S35 4K sensor is ready to be launched. 

 

[Video Hummus]

Now that Canon and Sony have played their video hand with the R5/6 and A7SIII (Sony still has a A7IV in their sleeves) respectively, the ball as been kicked—no absolutely belted—into Panasonic’s court.

Panasonic has been absolutely silent either twirling their thumbs in worry or rubbing their hands in anticipation.

Besides the very vague rumors is there anything more concrete out there about future products from them, wether MFT or FF?

I can see Panasonic competing with the A7S fairly easily if they sort out their AF. It’s not a stretch seeing them deliver a MFT camera with oversampled 4K up to 120p quite easily.

The Z-Cam E2M4 is doing 160FPS 4K at 13 stops DR on the same sensor Family as the GH5S/P4K.

With a newer Sony STARVIS 4/3 sensor and upgraded internals with those ever so practical Panasonic focused design we may see a another leap mirrorless technology from them.

Really hoping we will get some more info with @Andrew Reids upcoming interview with them.

[anonim]

Regarding market moment and actual crisis context, IMO Panasonic decision about (existence and possible specs of) GH6 is crucial in their mirrorless camera history. Excluding maybe ready out of the box best AF, Panasonic has literally all ingredients, knowledge and experience immediately at disposal to make the biggest and most complete (mirrorless video oriented cameras) hit till now - even including already established connection with BRAW codec. It will be extremely interesting decision, and me personally afraid that - alas - it will be bad-calculator circumspectively wrong 🙂

[sanveer]

4 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Now that Canon and Sony have played their video hand with the R5/6 and A7SIII (Sony still has a A7IV in their sleeves) respectively, the ball as been kicked—no absolutely belted—into Panasonic’s court.

Panasonic has been absolutely silent either twirling their thumbs in worry or rubbing their hands in anticipation.

Besides the very vague rumors is there anything more concrete out there about future products from them, wether MFT or FF?

I can see Panasonic competing with the A7S fairly easily if they sort out their AF. It’s not a stretch seeing them deliver a MFT camera with oversampled 4K up to 120p quite easily.

The Z-Cam E2M4 is doing 160FPS 4K at 13 stops DR on the same sensor Family as the GH5S/P4K.

With a newer Sony STARVIS 4/3 sensor and upgraded internals with those ever so practical Panasonic focused design we may see a another leap mirrorless technology from them.

Really hoping we will get some more info with @Andrew Reids upcoming interview with them.

At 1:21:30 onwards, without explicitly saying it, Sean Baker implies that things are in the offing. Meaning the GH5 successor, and that users should just be a little more patient.

 

I have to agree with you. M43 could easily get a new video sensor (or 2), that have atleast another 0.5 to 1 stop more dynamic range than what is already on the GH5 and GH5s, along with much higher frame rates. Panasonic should just hurry up with that. They could release the camera at the end of the year, but they should atleast start giving us hints and posting rumors on M43rumors.com.

Sometimes curiously does kill the cat 😉

[kye]

Who knows what Panasonic will do.  

I finally found the video I've been looking for though..  the GH5 was almost an 8K HDR camera.  See below (linked to the right time-stamp):

Given that Panasonic seems to have been trying to get the maximum out of the hardware possible, if they simply updated the GH5 to include all 2020 parts instead of 2016 parts and did the same "what can we possibly get out of this hardware" approach, it would truly be something to see.

Considering that in some ways Sony has made a huge statement with the A7S3 that it's ok to make a camera that 'just works' and isn't about chasing outright pixel counts or clickbait marketing headlines, the GH6 could be a 20MP dual-ISO version of the GH5 with beefed up image processing pipeline so we could have things like 4K60 10-bit HLG, 1080p240 10-bit, with the updated colour science from the S1H, with less rolling-shutter, etc.  Even just those upgrades would be spectacular.

I'm still championing the idea of an internal eND that can be managed by the camera for auto-exposure, and combined with ISO would allow a fixed shutter angle and aperture and it would adjust exposure from full-sun to darkest low-light.

[kye]

7 minutes ago, sanveer said:

At 1:21:30 onwards, without explicitly saying it, Sean Baker implies that things are in the offing. Meaning the GH5 successor, and that users should just be a little more patient.

Awesome.  I'm willing to wait for something great.

Quick decisions are often bad decisions, and the GH5 was made so much better in firmware updates rather than up front, but I don't think the current market really responds to that.  I can see Panasonic waiting a little bit longer, getting the extra modes configured and tested, and then coming out with an absolute cracker of a camera.  

The video I posted above talks about using the 5K sensor in the GH5 to de-squeeze in-camera to get 10K or 8K files SOOC, so even if they don't go for extra resolution sensor but up the image processing they can still get out larger resolution files by de-squeezing in-camera.  There are also a whole spectrum of algorithms for upscaling, such as Resolves Super Scale function, as well as other image processing functionality that might be useful, so going that route might yield a spectacular upgrade.

[anonim]

Unfortunately I tend to believe that future of m43 as looks dictated with position in Panasonic's plans is pretty bad. Panasonic team simply don't wish - or don't dare - to offer m43 camera that is far above in--the-field capabilities of their FF line, let alone EVA line... but moment of technology is quite such. All that FF line still severely struggle to bring even at lower (I mean mostly mostly capable LSI and codec and bit/bitrate wise) level, m43 already matured. Simply, Panasonic team IMO is also captivated in some sort of market autism that today is common for all Japanese manufacturer.

There's simply no wide place for 4000+ euros prized photo-body cameras. There also was no place for highly restrictive GH5s for 2500e without daring to give RAW but with daring to cut off IBIS because of task of gluing camera to moving car - and even more for such long keeping price at that level. Population of younger and aspiring dreamers or even more ambition travelers (even at Western countries that rapidly lose their previous standard) has no money for overheated price lust - they don't want to endlessly dispute about specs, salivate about sensor size, 10% more or less Bokeh, DOF, etc. - but to learn, create and promote themselves as distinctive creative individuals.

And at the moment when Japanese manufacturer finally are forced to drop their lust for more than 200% profit margin, BM's clever, more spec wise friendly and more honest in offering products already eat up most of the wider circle (out of die-hard AF users) market. 

Also unfortunately, after several misleading states about GH5s (totally false or deliberately misleading quoting of true usable DR, about cheap reason for omit of IBIS, misery of argument for stubborn keeping destructive NR algorithm etc) by mr Frazer, I concluded that he is just logically and predictable boastful front man without any decision relevance.

[Video Hummus]

2 hours ago, anonim said:

Unfortunately I tend to believe that future of m43 as looks dictated with position in Panasonic's plans is pretty bad. Panasonic team simply don't wish - or don't dare - to offer m43 camera that is far above in--the-field capabilities of their FF line, let alone EVA line... but moment of technology is quite such. All that FF line still severely struggle to bring even at lower (I mean mostly mostly capable LSI and codec and bit/bitrate wise) level, m43 already matured. Simply, Panasonic team IMO is also captivated in some sort of market autism that today is common for all Japanese manufacturer.

There's simply no wide place for 4000+ euros prized photo-body cameras. There also was no place for highly restrictive GH5s for 2500e without daring to give RAW but with daring to cut off IBIS because of task of gluing camera to moving car - and even more for such long keeping price at that level. Population of younger and aspiring dreamers or even more ambition travelers (even at Western countries that rapidly lose their previous standard) has no money for overheated price lust - they don't want to endlessly dispute about specs, salivate about sensor size, 10% more or less Bokeh, DOF, etc. - but to learn, create and promote themselves as distinctive creative individuals.

And at the moment when Japanese manufacturer finally are forced to drop their lust for more than 200% profit margin, BM's clever, more spec wise friendly and more honest in offering products already eat up most of the wider circle (out of die-hard AF users) market. 

Also unfortunately, after several misleading states about GH5s (totally false or deliberately misleading quoting of true usable DR, about cheap reason for omit of IBIS, misery of argument for stubborn keeping destructive NR algorithm etc) by mr Frazer, I concluded that he is just logically and predictable boastful front man without any decision relevance.

I disagree. I think there still is life in M43. The current releases from Sony and Canon underscore the fact that the majority of FF mirrorless cameras are not bulletproof for production work.

Panasonic is slotted in between black magic and the higher end offferings from Canon/Nikon/Sony. I think they proved with the S1H that they made the right decision in form factor and including a fan and they have also proven they can deliver the image. S1H footage is beautiful.

If they can close the gap with black magic while improving on their existing AF technology (or scrapping it for something new) then they offer something much different then black magic in well-built, weather sealed, reliable, camera bodies. Something BM struggles with. I think BM puts out an amazing image, but for the fact that I have to put my camera away for light weather conditions (not to mention their track record on reliability) BM doesn’t give me what I want.

The biggest hurtle is convincing people the DoF and marginal lowlight increase (in most shooting conditions) is worth the trade for typically what M43 offers.

A competent Peter McKinnon brand ambassador wouldn’t hurt either. Panasonic has a terrible track record with marketing and telling people about their products!

[anonim]

Just now, Video Hummus said:

I disagree. I think there still is life in M43.

Actually, my intention was to note how m43 is at the very moment the most capable (even higher) indie movie making format - but it must be that my noble intention was typically lost somewhere in mine new example of advanced Sioux English language 😞

[newfoundmass]

6 minutes ago, anonim said:

Actually, my intention was to note how m43 is at the very moment the most capable (even higher) indie movie making format - but it must be that my noble intention was typically lost somewhere in mine new example of advanced Sioux English language 😞

Your English is better than our attempts at speaking your native language would be, so don't feel too bad! 

[Video Hummus]

8 minutes ago, anonim said:

Actually, my intention was to note how m43 is at the very moment the most capable (even higher) indie movie making format - but it must be that my noble intention was typically lost somewhere in mine new example of advanced Sioux English language 😞

Panasonic M43 and FF can coexist. I think its especially important, more than ever, to have the next GH camera absolutely let loose with specs and capabilities. It might hurt S1H sales...sure but I think only because the GH is so well respected at this point.

[Nmccarthy]

Yeah I'm really hyped for a gh6 for run and  gun / doc work. Tbh I'm not sure why there needs to be some sort of protection for each type of camera (43 vs super35 vs FF). The lenses and application/workflow matter so much more that I don't get why any brand needs to consider cannibalization (looking at you canon)

[Amazeballs]

Sadly still zero news on the GH6 itself 😞

[anonim]

9 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Panasonic M43 and FF can coexist. I think its especially important, more than ever, to have the next GH camera absolutely let loose with specs and capabilities. It might hurt S1H sales...sure but I think only because the GH is so well respected at this point.

IMO you already wrote the most important and the most truly part: it might hurt S1H sales... So, in theory M43 and FF CAN coexist, but in today's market reality and Panasonic position in it - I'm afraid NOT to the level of full and equally fair developing potential of both. I think that Panasonic will not put enough effort to further developing m43 before they provide (by their estimation) same or very close specs to FF line. Which is, I think, suicidal decision - it is impossible (i. e. too late) for Panasonic to be widely recognized and accepted as important FF photo tool, and although S1H without doubt has beautiful IQ as such (so what?), even Panasonic admit that selling result is disaster... mostly simply because all concept of dlsr body camera for 4000+ euros and new line of lenses for the same sum is absurd.. or nonsense dreaming of their wealthy oldtimer's CEOs.

M43 in start can't provide such profit margin for Panasonic anachronistic lust that belongs to rapidly dying past of stable capitalistic (or post-WWII colonial) world and belonging market. Or, as I'm reproaching them metaphorically - biggest Japanese companies live in 'autistic' miscalculation. More and more I see them too sluggish, to incapable to adapt, above all, their passée profit expectation. They all constructed and (at behind-the-scene agreement) strongly supported (with different level of promoters) FF mantra as easy-exit for shrinking profit - but to provide real-world top usability of FF dlsr-body cameras (of course in video field) they are simply not yet capable... and IMO that's all true about actual terrorizing hot news about too-extremely-hot kit-package-bodies for 5-6000e: will such Holly Grails (or Buy-immediately-three-trophies) shut down after 15 or 45 minutes, will they resurrect after 5 or 35min... 

"Meaning the GH5 successor, and that users should just be a little more patient." Sean Baker... or "Bake-me-true"...

[kye]

11 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

If they can close the gap with black magic while improving on their existing AF technology (or scrapping it for something new) then they offer something much different then black magic in well-built, weather sealed, reliable, camera bodies. Something BM struggles with. I think BM puts out an amazing image, but for the fact that I have to put my camera away for light weather conditions (not to mention their track record on reliability) BM doesn’t give me what I want.

One issue I see a lot is that photo cameras completely incapable of decent video look like DSLRs, hybrid MILCs like the GH5 which are workhorses look like DSLRs, and small form-factor cinema cameras look like DSLRs, therefore, because they all look the same, people compare them.

The GH5 is a fundamentally different shooting experience than BM cameras for example.  

Something like the GH5 is built for run-and-gun situations out in the world far away from civilisation.  It's weather sealed so can withstand wet / heat / dust / etc.  It's got IBIS so can be hand-held with great results.  It has long battery-life so with a dozen batteries may even be fine for a week away from AC, has higher-quality consumer codecs so can record lots of footage onto reasonably priced media, and it's an all-in-one solution that only needs an external sound source for professional audio.

The P4K is the complete opposite.  It's not weather sealed.  It doesn't have IBIS so you need a tripod or rig.  It has terrible battery life, so a dozen batteries is more like a day shooting than a week.   It has high-bitrate professional formats that need large storage solutions for long duration clips.  It's not an all-in-one solution at all - to get the flexibility of the GH5 in practice you need to have a rig that has an external monitor, external power solution, external storage SSD, and that needs to be on a tripod or shoulder-rig etc.

The GH5 is designed to go out into the world and to capture the world by working around the unique foibles of the world.
The P4K is designed to have the world come to it and to capture the world by having the world work around the foibles of the camera.

The GH5 is basically the perfect solution for the kind of film-making that I do, the P4K is an absolutely terrible solution for what I do.  Most people don't shoot in situations that understand how completely different they are from each other, and because they look alike, they get compared way too directly with each other.

11 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Panasonic M43 and FF can coexist. I think its especially important, more than ever, to have the next GH camera absolutely let loose with specs and capabilities. It might hurt S1H sales...sure but I think only because the GH is so well respected at this point.

I agree.  Your point about an ambassador is a good one too, MFT isn't winning the marketing game.

Let's hope that they set a precedent with the Sony A7S3 in terms of going for 4K but doing it better and reliably and fixing the niggles, and that they can do this with a GH6 as well.

6 hours ago, Nmccarthy said:

Yeah I'm really hyped for a gh6 for run and  gun / doc work. Tbh I'm not sure why there needs to be some sort of protection for each type of camera (43 vs super35 vs FF). The lenses and application/workflow matter so much more that I don't get why any brand needs to consider cannibalization (looking at you canon)

Probably the biggest enemy we have to objectivity is confirmation bias.  So when someone spends thousands of dollars on a camera they become very invested in thinking they made the right choice, so they will argue about it on the internet with other people.  Fights about sensor size or camera brand aren't about cameras, they're about fighting to maintain the illusion that we make good decisions and are in control of our lives.

1 hour ago, anonim said:

IMO you already wrote the most important and the most truly part: it might hurt S1H sales... So, in theory M43 and FF CAN coexist, but in today's market reality and Panasonic position in it - I'm afraid NOT to the level of full and equally fair developing potential of both. I think that Panasonic will not put enough effort to further developing m43 before they provide (by their estimation) same or very close specs to FF line. Which is, I think, suicidal decision - it is impossible (i. e. too late) for Panasonic to be widely recognized and accepted as important FF photo tool, and although S1H without doubt has beautiful IQ as such (so what?), even Panasonic admit that selling result is disaster... mostly simply because all concept of dlsr body camera for 4000+ euros and new line of lenses for the same sum is absurd.. or nonsense dreaming of their wealthy oldtimer's CEOs.

I'm really hoping that Panasonic don't start playing the games of crippling part of their camera line to protect another part of their camera line.  In a sense Panasonic were a great challenger to the status quo as they didn't have a huge cine line to protect, thus the GH5 wasn't really a threat to the EVA in terms of loss of sales.