Panasonic GH6

[BTM_Pix]

21 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Would mess with Panasonic's entire naming history for a GH series camera to be anything but MFT Mount. 
If the "GH6" has an L Mount then it makes far far more sense to call it "S2H" instead. (or adopt some of the Sony/Olympus/Canon naming with "Mark X", and go with "S1H mk2")

That was where I was going with it, that there might not actually be a GH6 and that the new "highest end without being a full frame" hybrid will actually be the bottom of the S range rather than the highest of the MFT range.

A camera that would act as a gateway drug into the L mount full frame range that you can adapt your existing MFT lenses to would be more useful to Panasonic than trying to squeeze the last pips out of MFT for a new flagship GH.

EDIT > THIS FALLS APART WHEN FACTS ARE INTRODUCED REGARDING FLANGE DISTANCE

[Kisaha]

It will definitely be another GH camera.

There are too many happy GH5 users waiting for a mix of GH5 and GH5S with more megapixels (24-28 will do) for the perfect hybrid m43.

Olympus is out of the way and there are still unlimited m43 lenses and bodies in the wild that need a new body for 2021.

If they can keep a state of the art hybrid machine closer to 1500$ than 2000 mark, then they can have an instant hit. Mark my words!

Even for 1799$, depending the specs, can be the best camera to have for the less money.

I haven't been convinced from Fuji just yet and Panasonic has already delivered to us workhorse video mirrorless cameras for cheap. The lens selection is probably EF worthy right now and there are a lot of other companies going the m43 way to keep the mount afloat for at least a decade more.

The success of the Pocket4K and EZ cameras proves that for the right price, people do not have a problem with a smaller sensor. You can have m43 lenses on a cheap cine camera, hybrid, even the 8K Sharp that is coming!

I believe Panasonic has everything in house to build the perfect m43 tool, only shadow is the autofocus capabilities, we can not pretend that it doesn't exist in 2020. Even me, shooting video manually (even with C cameras) all the time, I want my next hybrid to have good AF just in case and to explore the new possibilities. Touch AF is a must also (I am using that reliably on my NX for years).

The "excuse" of a small sensor can keep the price low as well without fear for canibalizing their full frame series, because most people want full frame, whatever that means.

[kye]

16 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:nge.

A camera that would act as a gateway drug into the L mount full frame range that you can adapt your existing MFT lenses to would be more useful to Panasonic than trying to squeeze the last pips out of MFT for a new flagship GH.

Can MFT be adapted to L-Mount?  I suppose that with the larger diameter of the L-mount an MFT lens could sit slightly inside the L-mount?

[BTM_Pix]

9 minutes ago, kye said:

Can MFT be adapted to L-Mount?  

It can in my imagination but clearly that doesn't chime with the actual facts !

I've no idea how I've got it into my head that it was shallower. 

In my defence I was primarily thinking of chips at the time.

[billdoubleu]

10 minutes ago, kye said:

Can MFT be adapted to L-Mount?

It's possible, just not ideal. I grabbed a couple 3D models last year and played around with a design. I'm not sure it would be worth it. As much as I love MFT cameras, I've been considering a FF move myself.

[Video Hummus]

A7SIII is the closet FF camera that has come to pulling me out of MFT land as a primary camera. The 12MP sensor kinda kills it for me. I wish it was closer to 20MP for photography. 15MP might have been doable...

MFT still has steam in it for at least one more round of GH and GX cameras. I honestly think they are waiting for a more compelling MFT sensor from Sony. That, or they are experimenting with doing something funky with S35 or preparing a FF S L-mount camera that will replace the MFT GH cameras.

So I wait for news on GH6 camera while still happily enjoying my 5S.

BTW, since this thread hasn’t been derailed enough already. Here is a shot from my first outing out with the 7Artisans 60mm macro. I sipped coffee with my hand on the shutter for about 45 mins off and on until one lucky bee came along.

 

[billdoubleu]

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

A7SIII is the closet FF camera that has come to pulling me out of MFT land as a primary camera. The 12MP sensor kinda kills it for me. I wish it was closer to 20MP for photography. 15MP might have been doable...

For me, I'm loving the colors coming out of the S1/ S1H. I just wish the S1 was dual base ISO like the S1H. The #1 problem I run into with my G85 & GX85 is image quality beyond ISO 800. I need a camera that allows me to stop down for some depth in low light.

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

MFT still has steam in it for at least one more round of GH and GX cameras. I honestly think they are waiting for a more compelling MFT sensor from Sony. That, or they are experimenting with doing something funky with S35 or preparing a FF S L-mount camera that will replace the MFT GH cameras.

I definitely think that's the issue. It seems Sony are barely innovating in sensor technology period, let alone MFT. Look at all of these companies using not only the same sensor as their competition, but, the same sensor in multiple model iterations. The only spec that seems to move forward lately is resolution.

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

So I wait for news on GH6 camera while still happily enjoying my 5S.

Cool camera, but I need IBIS.

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

BTW, since this thread hasn’t been derailed enough already. Here is a shot from my first outing out with the 7Artisans 60mm macro. I sipped coffee with my hand on the shutter for about 45 mins off and on until one lucky bee came along.

 

Very nice!

[Video Hummus]

So Forbes says the Sony Sensors business is absolutely booming. They hold 50% of the global sensor market. A whopping 70% of the smartphone sensor market.

Via sonyalpharumors: https://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2020/07/one-investors-view-on-sony-cis-business.html

If you look at the segments that are growing the most is smartphones, automotive, and security.

The security sector of sensors could be interesting to look at in regards to MFT, as its pretty well know a lot of MFT sensors used in cameras are based off an initial design for security purposes. I believe these are the Sony STARVIS line of sensors.

The most well know and successful one being the IMX299 which is used in GH5S, P4K, Zcam E2 and the IMX272 (I’m going off memory I might be wrong) which is the very heavily used 20MP sensor in the GH5 and EM1 cameras.

The security camera market, currently, is pushing heavily into the 4/3 sized sensors for the extra low-light and quality you get from them compared the the 1” sensor. If you look at any high-end security cameras they tend to trend towards using 4/3 sized sensors.

Hopefully as demand continues to increase in the security market we will see more capable 4/3 sensors coming from Sony and we will also see more affordable 4/3 based security cameras coming to the consumer market. The Ubiquity line of G cameras comes to mind (https://www.ui.com/products/#unifivideo). I will be installing Ubiquiti cameras soon at my business so I’ve been knee deep in researching this area.

As you can see in the chart the camera slice of the sensor market is absolutely tiny. I think this is part of the reason why we see a stagnation in the FF sensor market. There are many FF cameras that are using the exact same Sony sensor for multiple generations of products now.

I’m still curious to know what sensor that Sharp 8K camera was using. I get mixed findings on wether it was a Sony sensor or an in-house development from Sharp. I see this company come up a lot: http://www.socle-tech.com/SHARP_image_Sensors.php

Which is a Foxconn owned company. The sensor is also 33MP which currently there are no published sensors from sony with that spec.

So it leads me to believe its a “in-house” MFT sensor that isn’t from Sony, which is kinda remarkable.

 

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

Towerjazz used a Nikon Z image in one of their reports, leading to believe that the Z6 or the Z7 have a Towerjazz sensor. If this is the case, could be a good alternative.

But very interesting report about the security market size. Yeah, that is what could bring a new MFT sensor.

[kye]

3 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

 

Of course, the sector that is about to explode in the above image is the Automotive one - currently only premium cars have any cameras in them at all (reverse camera) but in a decade or so every car will have a bunch of them installed.  There are all sorts of challenges with lighting too, considering that cars need to be able to see objects that are far away at night and also have to obey very strict safety requirements so can't install floodlights to light everything around them either, so low-light performance will be a large consideration.

That actually gives me a lot of hope for the MFT camera market, as it will essentially have its sensor tech bankrolled by the autonomous car market, much like the video editing market has the GPU arms race being bankrolled by the video game industry.

Due to size constraints I don't see FF sensors being adopted for automotive purposes, and I struggle to think of another industry that is about to explode that will bankroll FF sensor development.  In terms of tech, the cine-camera and professional photography markets are nothing compared to other market segments.

[IronFilm]

Interesting theory @kye, I'd love to believe it too, but what makes MFT sensors so much more special for automotive cameras vs using 1" sensor (or even smaller)?

[kye]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Interesting theory @kye, I'd love to believe it too, but what makes MFT sensors so much more special for automotive cameras vs using 1" sensor (or even smaller)?

No idea.

I guess bigger is better for low-light, but bigger requires bigger optics, so there would be a limit.  MFT seems like it might be around that size, but who knows.

[newfoundmass]

Do these companies ever design the sensor and then send it to Sony to make? Or do companies just depend on Sony to develop them on their own and then use what is available to them? I'm admittedly not the most knowledgeable about sensor tech. I know some cameras share sensors, but like, does it make sense for companies to just rely on Sony deciding whether or not they're going to make a sensor? Cause that seems like a bad idea to me? 

[sanveer]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

Do these companies ever design the sensor and then send it to Sony to make? Or do companies just depend on Sony to develop them on their own and then use what is available to them? I'm admittedly not the most knowledgeable about sensor tech. I know some cameras share sensors, but like, does it make sense for companies to just rely on Sony deciding whether or not they're going to make a sensor? Cause that seems like a bad idea to me? 

That's a pretty interesting question. I am guessing it's perhaps a mix of both. That's why the 24MP FF sensor is shared across the board (with Panasonic not having it with PDAF), and each of the manufacturers has different dynamic range and slight tweaks here and there. Whereas the 26MP APS-C sensor is unique to Fuji, so maybe they got lucky with the sensor size and wafer pixel density. Circuitry perhaps helps determine bit depth among  a few other things. It may have to do with cost cutting among other things. Am quite curious why Samsung doesn't make image sensors for ILCs (since it was already making its own ILC sensors). And it is officially the 2nd largest image sensor maker, after Sony. It could easily eat into Sony's ILC sensor market share. 

[Kisaha]

1 hour ago, sanveer said:

Am quite curious why Samsung doesn't make image sensors for ILCs (since it was already making its own ILC sensors). And it is officially the 2nd largest image sensor maker, after Sony. It could easily eat into Sony's ILC sensor market share. 

They have their hands full with their mobile phones. They do not make enough sensors even for their phones.

They try to increase their share though.

Do not forget that they had APS-C BSI 28mpxls 5 years ago and no overheating.

[sanveer]

17 hours ago, Kisaha said:

They have their hands full with their mobile phones. They do not make enough sensors even for their phones.

They try to increase their share though.

Do not forget that they had APS-C BSI 28mpxls 5 years ago and no overheating.

They did reach 24% Market Share for one of the quarters this or last year. Also, Samsung has planned to reach 50% Market Share (not sure if it is 5 years or 10 years), so it has no reason not to be ambitious. 

[Kisaha]

On 8/16/2020 at 8:18 PM, sanveer said:

They did reach 24% Market Share for one of the quarters this or last year. Also, Samsung has planned to reach 50% Market Share (not sure if it is 5 years or 10 years), so it has no reason not to be ambitious. 

Of course, Samsung is always ambitious, that is how they get here!

I was expecting such a move years ago, I am not sure why it took them so long, first of all they need all these for their phones and other devices, and still buy from Sony.

They will be very aggressive the next few years and maybe that will bring another camera sensor on the market, which is always good for the customer.

[Video Hummus]

On 8/15/2020 at 6:13 PM, sanveer said:

That's a pretty interesting question. I am guessing it's perhaps a mix of both. That's why the 24MP FF sensor is shared across the board (with Panasonic not having it with PDAF), and each of the manufacturers has different dynamic range and slight tweaks here and there.

This is how it is with some sensors made for industrial applications and then tweaked by a camera manufacture (or sony themselves) for camera use.

I think the differences in DR are all on the processing side and perhaps how each camera can keep the sensor cool or at least in optimum performance range.

The S1H is a good example. They do heavy noise reduction and perhaps the cooling helps keep the sensor DR performance near what they would measure in the lab, ie perfect conditions.

[sanveer]

4 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Of course, Samsung is always ambitious, that is how they get here!

I was expecting such a move years ago, I am not sure why it took them so long, first of all they need all these for their phones and other devices, and still buy from Sony.

They will be very aggressive the next few years and maybe that will bring another camera sensor on the market, which is always good for the customer.

I am guessing, that, per mm of real estate, ILC sensors are a lot more expensive than smartphone sensors. Especially considering, that the smaller the size of a sensor, the lesser wastage from the original wafer, from which it is cut. That is one reason why larger sensors are a lot more expensive too. Plus even by real estate, considering that most smartphones nowadays have 3 sensors or more, smartphones sensors probably sell a lot more than any other sensor category. So maybe that's why Samsung realises, that ILC sensors are probably, not that profitable. And they don't want to be in a market that is more niche.

 

1 hour ago, Video Hummus said:

This is how it is with some sensors made for industrial applications and then tweaked by a camera manufacture (or sony themselves) for camera use.

I think the differences in DR are all on the processing side and perhaps how each camera can keep the sensor cool or at least in optimum performance range.

The S1H is a good example. They do heavy noise reduction and perhaps the cooling helps keep the sensor DR performance near what they would measure in the lab, ie perfect conditions.

I guess you're kindda right. Wiring of the sensor would determine both bit depth, and dynamic range. So theoretically, if a smartphone sensor and a medium format sensor, both had the same pixel density, same bit depth, same average voltage (at the pixel level?), and similar processing, then the smartphone and medium format camera should both produce similar dynamic range, as well as exposure latitude. Obviously cooling, like you mentioned ensures that processing isn't hampered in any way, thereby  compromising image quality. When the GH5 came out, I noticed that DXO Mark rated it at 13 stops of dynamic range, which was more than many APS-C and even a few FF sensors. 

 

[newfoundmass]

Looks like they're announcing a new battery with the S5 that will be compatible with the GH5, GH5s and G9. Guessing it might end up being the same battery they'll use for the GH6?