Panasonic GH6

[kye]

11 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I am one of those that believe that 8K is too soon, I wouldn't say no to 5K or 6K for re-framing/downscaling/stabilizing purposes, just to be safe for the next few years. 

We already have 5K in the GH5.  There's only one mode that uses it, but it's there and is used for downscaling in most of the other modes of course.

I'm much more interested in a camera that does 4K and 1080p better.  I'd take Dual-ISO or eND over any increase in resolution any day of the week.  We already have 400Mbps 4K 422 10-bit ALL-I, there aren't many people who can claim much benefit for a "better" output file than that, especially considering that the 4K killer mode is also already downsampled.

EOSHD seems to be one of the most technically savvy and demanding community of GH5 users and have a look at how we're delivering.  Resolution is not the answer.

[Mmmbeats]

2 hours ago, kye said:

We already have 5K in the GH5.  There's only one mode that uses it, but it's there and is used for downscaling in most of the other modes of course.

I'm much more interested in a camera that does 4K and 1080p better.  I'd take Dual-ISO or eND over any increase in resolution any day of the week.  We already have 400Mbps 4K 422 10-bit ALL-I, there aren't many people who can claim much benefit for a "better" output file than that, especially considering that the 4K killer mode is also already downsampled.

EOSHD seems to be one of the most technically savvy and demanding community of GH5 users and have a look at how we're delivering.  Resolution is not the answer.

This all day long.

I feel like we're at where we were many years ago with photography, when stores were selling cameras based solely on 'megapixels' - the more the better!  It took a while for the buying public to re-educate themselves about this.

The jump from SD to HD was amazing.  I was a big enthusiast and early adaptor.  I was boring people silly about it!

The jump from HD to 4K was pretty cool, but that's about all.  From a filmmaking perspective it added some nice options for delivering in 1080.  HDR made more of an impact on me overall.

For me the whole 8K / 12K thing is being driven by the sales floor.  People like a bigger number.

One thing though - 400Mbps can be improved on I think.  It's very similar in quality to the 150Mbps LongGop.

 

[Hanriverprod]

• Super 35mm image sensor and a Micro Four Thirds (MFT) lens mount
• pdaf or dpaf
• 4K up to 60p or 120p at 10 bit 4:2:2
• 4K internal raw 24p and 30p
• electronic ND
• dual iso

[kye]

1 hour ago, Hanriverprod said:

• Super 35mm image sensor and a Micro Four Thirds (MFT) lens mount

That would rule it out for me.  I've already invested in a lens collection that is at my preferred focal lengths, I don't want to have to re-buy my lenses to keep the same FOV as what I have (or in the case of the 7.5mm Laowa I simply cannot replicate the FOV as there is no equivalent lens).

Your suggestion is half-way to suggesting a FF GH6, which exists - it's called the S1H.

[Hanriverprod]

1 hour ago, kye said:

That would rule it out for me.  I've already invested in a lens collection that is at my preferred focal lengths, I don't want to have to re-buy my lenses to keep the same FOV as what I have (or in the case of the 7.5mm Laowa I simply cannot replicate the FOV as there is no equivalent lens).

Your suggestion is half-way to suggesting a FF GH6, which exists - it's called the S1H.

"Native Field of View for Any LensImagine having a 4K video camera that could utilize any number of lenses, of various formats and sizes, and the camera just knew how to properly map the pixels on the sensor chip to properly frame your lens of choice ... Now, stop imagining. Thanks to the revolutionary technology we call Variable Scan Mapping, VSM for short, the GY-LS300 lets you choose the lens you want as it enables the camera to maintain the native angle of view for a large variety of lenses including many popular Super 35, MFT and Super 16. "

from:

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/4k/brochure/gyls300v3web.pdf

Am I understanding this wrong?

[kye]

41 minutes ago, Hanriverprod said:

"Native Field of View for Any LensImagine having a 4K video camera that could utilize any number of lenses, of various formats and sizes, and the camera just knew how to properly map the pixels on the sensor chip to properly frame your lens of choice ... Now, stop imagining. Thanks to the revolutionary technology we call Variable Scan Mapping, VSM for short, the GY-LS300 lets you choose the lens you want as it enables the camera to maintain the native angle of view for a large variety of lenses including many popular Super 35, MFT and Super 16. "

from:

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/4k/brochure/gyls300v3web.pdf

Am I understanding this wrong?

This feature, as I understand it, talks to the lens and then just crops into the sensor to only use the image circle that the lens covers.

There are some issues:

• Doesn't work with non-native lenses, or lenses that don't talk to the camera (ie, all my lenses)
• The GH5 has a 5K MFT sensor.  To have the same pixel density it would need 7.4K S35 or 10.7K FF.  If it didn't have that resolution then there would be less pixels in the MFT image circle and I'd effectively get a downgrade. 

[Video Hummus]

2 hours ago, kye said:

This feature, as I understand it, talks to the lens and then just crops into the sensor to only use the image circle that the lens covers.

 

It’s user controllable as well.

8 hours ago, kye said:

I'm much more interested in a camera that does 4K and 1080p better.

A fast, high mega pixel sensor will give you just that. I don’t care about 1080p anymore. It’s a resolution I use when I have to for higher frame rates. It’s 4K capture and delivery for me always.

So a sensor that can deliver 16:9 6K up to 60p (not using the entire sensor) would allow for oversampled 4K up to 60p. The higher frame rates historically used pixel-binning to achieve it. Again a higher MP count would be helpful.

Hell 6K all the way for me. I think it’s the sweet spot for a video mirrorless camera because it’s flexible. Ability to go up to 8K when processed smartly with a upscaler for use on larger productions or for stock footage. Ability to go down for better 4K...and 1080p.

But not to sound like I’m disagreeing. As my original post about it was exactly that...there as some many other things they could add to improve the shooting experience and workflow that are more valuable than resolution or even DPAF. 

[Towd]

17 hours ago, Hanriverprod said:

Super 35mm image sensor and a Micro Four Thirds (MFT) lens mount

The more I think about it the more I really like the idea of the GH6 going to some kind of multi-aspect sensor format like the JVC LS300 .  It would silence the haters who think m43 is going to die, and would open up opportunities to shoot super 35 with adapted lenses.  They could also expand the m43 spec to cover the s35 sensor area with a tweak to the name like "Micro Four Thirds Plus" or "Cinema", etc.  So some lenses are m43 and some are labelled m43+.

13 hours ago, kye said:

The GH5 has a 5K MFT sensor.  To have the same pixel density it would need 7.4K S35 or 10.7K FF.  If it didn't have that resolution then there would be less pixels in the MFT image circle and I'd effectively get a downgrade. 

In regards to Kye's concern about a reduced resolution for people who just want to shoot m43, I ran some numbers using a 3.33 µm pixel pitch which is the GH5's pixel size and came up with the following at various image sizes:

• Super 35 (24.89 x 18.66mm):   7474 x 5603 or 42 mpix
• APS-C (23.6 x 15.7mm):             7,087 x 4715  or 33 mpix
• Academy 35: (21.95 x 16mm):  6592 x 4804 or 32 mpix
• DCI m43 like GH5s (19.26 x 10.2mm): 5784 x 3063 or 18 mpix
• standard m43 (17.3 x 13mm):   5196 x 3907 or 20 mpix
• m43 square (17.3 x 17.3mm):    5196 x 5196 or 27 mpix

If Panasonic were to reduce the pixel pitch just a hair to 3.24 µm they could actually hit 8k in super 35 while slightly increasing all the other resolutions:

• Super 35 (24.89 x 18.66mm):   7682 x 5759 or 44 mpix
• standard m43 (17.3 x 13mm):  5340 x 4012 or 21 mpix

I could also see them not going all the way up to true Super 35 and just topping out at the APS-C size for cost or heat reasons.  But, with a slightly greater reduction in pixel pitch, they could offer 8k in APSC and ~6k in m43.

If they had an easy way to swap between the various sensor sizes and could deliver 10 bit 24fps in 8k Super 35 and 120 fps in 4k m43  with a variety of frame rates in between in the way Red camera's work, they'd have a very interesting camera.

This would also give them a good reason to charge $2000 for the camera on release as I can't see Panasonic interested in launching a GH6 for less than they launched the GH5.

[Amazeballs]

That would be a trully interesting and innovative m43 camera if they dare to put S35 sensor in there and deliver an option to tune the image circle for every lens (and remember it). 

[Kisaha]

We have praised JVC for that in this forum for years now, I was using such a camera for years, but unfortunately there were some minor issues that didn't turn it into the indie hit of this generation, but I am sure it sold well above what people assume..

I am not one for resolutions, but I have some standards.

At least 24mgpxls for photography, and I can see that 6K can be amazing as a middle ground between 4 and 8K, and even 5K would be good enough for me, as I would like to have a little bit of wiggle room.

Dual ISO, the situation with the AF is something to consider, a little bit better ergonomics on the body (yes, I am a spoiled NX1 owner!), maybe a little bit less weight (too heavy for ligh m43 lenses) and we are set. Everything else is already there. My only real issues with the GH5 are the ISO and stills, they were both sub par the larger sensored competition.

4K/60 is good enough for me. Internal RAW is not going to happen. eND - I wish, that would be incredible.

[maxmizer]

On 8/24/2020 at 11:27 AM, kye said:

That would rule it out for me.  I've already invested in a lens collection that is at my preferred focal lengths, I don't want to have to re-buy my lenses to keep the same FOV as what I have (or in the case of the 7.5mm Laowa I simply cannot replicate the FOV as there is no equivalent lens).

Your suggestion is half-way to suggesting a FF GH6, which exists - it's called the S1H.

i disagree, it could be a big move for everyone, think how many hollywood professionals could film with a small m4 / 3 camera ...

[Thpriest]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

eND - I wish, that would be incredible.

This is key to making m43 a real winner. And punch in to check focus whilst recording!

[hyalinejim]

3 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

punch in to check focus whilst recording!

This would be so good for interviews.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

Panasonic interview in Imaging Resource: https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2020/08/20/panasonic-interview-covid-development-full-frame-micro-four-thirds

"Mr. Yamane: Yes, we believe L-mount is a highly optimum mount for video shooting. And so going forward, we'd like to make L-mount a standard of the video shooting industry. Within the alliance, we'd like to discuss how to strengthen our video performance, and make it a kind of a standard for the video shooting world.

DE: You hope L-mount could maybe become like the PL-mount, so very popular.

Mr. Yamane: Yes. Yeah, this is my personal hope, that L-mount could be the standard format for video shooting."

About m43:

"For telephoto or super-telephoto, maybe we should go with the Micro Four Thirds, which makes a more compact package with high-zoom. So we are studying the future development plan, including Micro Four Thirds."

"Mr. Yamane: We introduced the S-series of full-frame cameras, and we target high picture quality with the S-series. However, there is some video footage which only Micro Four Thirds can realize, in terms of optimum depth of field, mobility, zoom ratio and so on. So Micro Four Thirds is also a precious asset for us to cover video shooting needs. The GH-series has been already used by lots of videographers, and it is used for high-end video shooting by one-man operations. So without fail, by using the GH, customers can make very attractive footage using the characteristics of Micro Four Thirds. We are now studying how we are going to evolve GH series going forward, [to make the most of its advantages].

DE: Hai. (Yes)

Mr. Yamane: Thanks to Micro Four Thirds' smaller sensor size, it is good for high-speed response; high frame-rate video"

For me, looks like that video would be all in L-Mount, and m43 would be for niche formats.

(before calling me m43 hater - I ONLY have m43 cameras)

[currensheldon]

For MFT and GH6 to survive now that everyone has caught up with the GH-series but in full-frame (10-bit, All-I, 60fps in 4k, etc) is to offer things that will take another 3-4 years for other manufacturers to do (especially since Canon and Sony have just put out their mirrorless video flagships):

- high frame rates (for sure), including 120-180fps in 4k at good bit rates (and not insane ones like R5). Maybe even 480fps in HD?
- e-ND - they HAVE to have internal ND filters.
- GH5s or better low light - just to at least be in the same ballpark as Super35/full-frame (meaning usable to 6400 ISO, which is 98% of use cases)
- Internal raw or at least some form of 12-bit compression that gets you close to raw quality (BM Raw?) 
- Great XLR capabilities - perhaps a better version of the grip that is also dual XLRs? I would prefer this than the hotshoe one so there is still a place to mount a microphone without a cage (or to keep your monitor centered over camera).
- Global Shutter or miniscule rolling shutter - MFT has always been good for this, but now to take it a step further. 
- $1799 or lower - Has to be cheaper than entry-level full-frame and something like the XT3. 
- Tof AF? - I don't care a ton about AF (always seems to fail me in critical moments with Canon/Sony so I don't use it), but so many people care A LOT, that they have to do something.
- Insanely good IBIS - This has always been Panasonic's strong suit, but Canon has caught up. So 8-10 stops of IBIS and improved mechanism for walking forward to create close-to-gimbal like movement. 

Pair this camera with the 10-25mm f1.7 and video shooters are set.

[Thpriest]

28 minutes ago, currensheldon said:

For MFT and GH6 to survive now that everyone has caught up with the GH-series but in full-frame (10-bit, All-I, 60fps in 4k, etc) is to offer things that will take another 3-4 years for other manufacturers to do (especially since Canon and Sony have just put out their mirrorless video flagships):

- high frame rates (for sure), including 120-180fps in 4k at good bit rates (and not insane ones like R5). Maybe even 480fps in HD?
- e-ND - they HAVE to have internal ND filters.
- GH5s or better low light - just to at least be in the same ballpark as Super35/full-frame (meaning usable to 6400 ISO, which is 98% of use cases)
- Internal raw or at least some form of 12-bit compression that gets you close to raw quality (BM Raw?) 
- Great XLR capabilities - perhaps a better version of the grip that is also dual XLRs? I would prefer this than the hotshoe one so there is still a place to mount a microphone without a cage (or to keep your monitor centered over camera).
- Global Shutter or miniscule rolling shutter - MFT has always been good for this, but now to take it a step further. 
- $1799 or lower - Has to be cheaper than entry-level full-frame and something like the XT3. 
- Tof AF? - I don't care a ton about AF (always seems to fail me in critical moments with Canon/Sony so I don't use it), but so many people care A LOT, that they have to do something.
- Insanely good IBIS - This has always been Panasonic's strong suit, but Canon has caught up. So 8-10 stops of IBIS and improved mechanism for walking forward to create close-to-gimbal like movement. 

Pair this camera with the 10-25mm f1.7 and video shooters are set.

m43 needs a companion f1.7 zoom.  Maybe 30-60mm or longer.

[IronFilm]

On 8/24/2020 at 9:27 PM, kye said:

That would rule it out for me.  I've already invested in a lens collection that is at my preferred focal lengths, I don't want to have to re-buy my lenses to keep the same FOV as what I have (or in the case of the 7.5mm Laowa I simply cannot replicate the FOV as there is no equivalent lens).

This isn't a big deal at all, you can just have smart variable re-scaling, like the JVC LS200 does!

On 8/24/2020 at 11:36 PM, kye said:

• Doesn't work with non-native lenses, or lenses that don't talk to the camera (ie, all my lenses)

You can set it manually. 

On 8/24/2020 at 11:36 PM, kye said:

• The GH5 has a 5K MFT sensor.  To have the same pixel density it would need 7.4K S35 or 10.7K FF.  If it didn't have that resolution then there would be less pixels in the MFT image circle and I'd effectively get a downgrade. 

Doesn't have to be 7.4K in S35, it could be a bit lower resolution (6K) and still be 4K when in 4/3" mode.  

4 hours ago, Thpriest said:

This is key to making m43 a real winner. And punch in to check focus whilst recording!

Was using that so much today with my Sony PMW-F3 while doing voxpops on the street, it is so handy to be able to do it while recording. 

[Video Hummus]

3 hours ago, Thpriest said:

m43 needs a companion f1.7 zoom.  Maybe 30-60mm or longer.

Add in a 6K ex-teleconvert feature...killer combo.

[sanveer]

4 hours ago, currensheldon said:

For MFT and GH6 to survive now that everyone has caught up with the GH-series but in full-frame (10-bit, All-I, 60fps in 4k, etc) is to offer things that will take another 3-4 years for other manufacturers to do (especially since Canon and Sony have just put out their mirrorless video flagships):

- high frame rates (for sure), including 120-180fps in 4k at good bit rates (and not insane ones like R5). Maybe even 480fps in HD?
- e-ND - they HAVE to have internal ND filters.
- GH5s or better low light - just to at least be in the same ballpark as Super35/full-frame (meaning usable to 6400 ISO, which is 98% of use cases)
- Internal raw or at least some form of 12-bit compression that gets you close to raw quality (BM Raw?) 
- Great XLR capabilities - perhaps a better version of the grip that is also dual XLRs? I would prefer this than the hotshoe one so there is still a place to mount a microphone without a cage (or to keep your monitor centered over camera).
- Global Shutter or miniscule rolling shutter - MFT has always been good for this, but now to take it a step further. 
- $1799 or lower - Has to be cheaper than entry-level full-frame and something like the XT3. 
- Tof AF? - I don't care a ton about AF (always seems to fail me in critical moments with Canon/Sony so I don't use it), but so many people care A LOT, that they have to do something.
- Insanely good IBIS - This has always been Panasonic's strong suit, but Canon has caught up. So 8-10 stops of IBIS and improved mechanism for walking forward to create close-to-gimbal like movement. 

Pair this camera with the 10-25mm f1.7 and video shooters are set.

You nailed it.

I see the G9 at $999 almost everywhere. In terms of hardware it is superior to the GH5, has better photo capabilities, better low light imaging, much better burst modes, HiRes Mode, much better IBIS, better design etc.

After the S5 at under $2000 with free Vlog(?), Panasonic should just resume the GH lineup, with a price between the G9 and GH series, and preferably much closer to G9.

Smartphone sensors are getting bigger and their zoom and low light capabilities are growing exponentially. That's the biggest competition to ILCs. And FF cameras at $2000 are the other issue.

Panasonic needs to move fast. Outline the roadmap instead of sounding confused in interviews (IR interview). 

[kye]

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Doesn't have to be 7.4K in S35, it could be a bit lower resolution (6K) and still be 4K when in 4/3" mode.   

That would mean that shooting on the GH5 in MFT 4K was a downsampled image from 5.2K, and then shooting on the GH6 in MFT 4K would be a straight 4K and not downsampled.

Ie, a downgrade.