Panasonic GH6

[MrSMW]

14 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I'm just asking Panasonic to rise to the occasion or at least let us know what's going on so we can make whatever decisions we might need to take. Stop leaving us in the dark, please. 

Maybe it's just the way I see things and what I'd do, but I have never understood this kind of mentality in any business, ie, not telling your potential customers what's coming.

This industry is one of the worst offenders.

If I was a hobbiest, I wouldn't care so much and would be quite happy to see what comes along whenever that may be and make my purchase decisions based on that.

But for business users, we like to plan and cost things because ultimately these things are tools to us.

At least with Fuji, they have recently confirmed an XH2 will be coming. Just what and when, remains to be seen.

We know that Canon and Sony will bang out cameras year on year and whilst they might not always suit our purposes or having overheating issues, we just know that any investment in Sony or Canon lenses is a good one.

Nikon...meh. They are beginning to slide now and just making follow on products that lack some of the features those they are following (Canon and Sony) have.

But Panasonic... FFS Panasonic. There's a reason why you only have a 2.8% share of the FF camera market and it is mostly due to your AF...or at least it's perceived AF (which is excellent for stills, but most do not realise that) and you have excellent ergos, build, menus, photo & video quality...but you have more secrets than Secret Squirrel (and he had a few).

My best guess is they believe they are protecting their interests, but I think they are mostly pissing people off.

I've said it before and I stand by it. If they do pop out a GH6 any time soon and it doesn't have PDAF, I think they are headed down the toilet because just about nobody will buy it

Where that would leave L Mount is anybodies guess and that in itself just needs one more tweak and that's the fecking AF for us non-manual focusers who make up 99.9% of the real world.

Rant over.

[IronFilm]

On 2/5/2021 at 8:20 PM, kye said:

Panasonic and Olympus even labelled their f2.8 lenses "PRO" which is completely ridiculous.

It is not ridiculous in the slightest. 

Heck, there are even pro lenses which are f5.6!!

F-Stop has relatively little to do with if they're "pro" or not. 

[IronFilm]

On 2/6/2021 at 1:50 PM, kye said:

I disagree - the A7S3 didn't get cancelled by the internet for not having 8K.

I really think that the A7S2 was the spiritual sibling of the GH5 - both were workhorses that had sore points and weren't perfect.  Sony updated the A7S2 with another camera that extended it's usefulness to working pros but didn't go 8K, and the reception was very positive.

Of course, who knows if the GH6 would get a warm welcome if it got a workhorse update, because unfortunately it lacks the PDAF and FF sensor of the A7S3.

I feel like all that the GH6 needs to do to find success, is match the specs of the GH5/GH5S combo and add an eND. That alone would make the GH6 a very compelling choice for many people, anything else would merely be a cherry on the top.

[Thpriest]

eND, GH5S or better lowlight, best IBIS, 10 bit 4k 50p and 6k 25p and Sony class AF. There's your winner

 

*It goes without saying that there'd be no extra crop and all the other stuff we love.

[Origami101]

This is just a Wishlist, not even speculation what a potential GH6 might have. But if I were Panasonic -- which I'm not! -- I'd go bold: micro 4/3s is always going to have a perceived, though not necessarily actual, image quality deficit versus 135 and APS-C formats. So play up your strengths and use the cost savings from the cheaper sensor to bundle in better tech.

For the body, pick up the refinements from the S series like that gorgeous 5.7m dot viewfinder, highres touchscreen, and 8 way joystick. Also sweat the details, for example, calibrating both the EVF and touchscreen from the factory.

Emphasize connectivity. I'd like to see the latest Wifi 6 and Bluetooth 5.1 or 5.2. Then add 2 thunderbolt 4 connectors. 

Aggressively ditch the legacy stuff. Cut the card slots and instead offer 128 or 512GBs of internal storage. Make transferring data off via thunderbolt or wifi simple, fast and dependable. 

Push the boundaries on tech. How about H.266 as an option? For stills, 10 bit HEIF and Display P3. And please, toss the proprietary raw and go with DNG. Adopt the latest 1.6 spec and use that semantic and tone mapping Apple's done on the iPhone 12 Pro (ProRAW is just a DNG file). 

For autofocus, I doubt Panasonic will go with phase detect. But maybe this'll be the update that makes DFD great. Drive that at 240 hertz with improved algorithms and processing power, especially for subject recognition, and it could be pretty good. While you're at it, profile the Olympus lenses (I suspect they may have done this but don't advertise the fact. But if that's the case, make it official. You want m4/3s to be as attractive a platform as possible). 

[currensheldon]

Lots of cool ideas there, but for video shooters, only having 512gb internal storage before off-loading would be a nightmare. Got to keep the card slots. 

In my opinion, they have to do a couple of BIG things. Those would be:
- Internal eND - Be the first
- Internal BM Raw or ProRes Raw - even if this was available out the USB-C to an external SSD (like the Sigma FP), that would be HUGE. Being able to bypass the Ninja V would be so great. 

Then also some :
- PDAF - They have to do it at this point. Or figure out a way to make DfD/Contrast aas good as the competition. 
- 5.9k or 6k like the S1, S5, S1H would be fine, but they'll probably go for 8k. 
- Timecode - Get that Netflix appoval
- 180-240fps in 4k - Just to beat the full-frame models

Some other cool ideas would be to have a battery grip also have two mini XLRs, or have one mini XLR on the body. We'll seee.

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, Origami101 said:

Aggressively ditch the legacy stuff. Cut the card slots and instead offer 128 or 512GBs of internal storage. Make transferring data off via thunderbolt or wifi simple, fast and dependable. 

Hell no!
Nobody wants to run out of space in the middle of a shoot, and not be able to swap cards out in a jiffy.

[MrSMW]

No to an internal SSD also but a MASSIVE yes to an electronic variable ND.

Next best option would be a drop in solution between the lens and body.

I wish there was an option for my S5 for this as I need both a VND and to retain a lens hood so have glued a slimmer aftermarket hood to my variable ND so I rotate that instead/at the same time.

 

[Origami101]

The idea for internal storage is to free up space in the camera -- for a larger battery, bigger heatsink, even a more powerful processor -- while pushing the need for any additional storage to the Thunderbolt ports, which can link to fast SSDs. How often would you record more than 512GBs in a session and not be using a rig and external monitor where you could easily slot whatever storage you need in?

[Mark Romero 2]

So for a GH6, my wish list would be...

Dual Gain Output sensor similar to that in the C70 (but in m43 sensor size) that expands the dynamic range.

A better LOG codec that can handle that increased dynamic range.

Ability to output Black Magic RAW (BRAW)

6K ???

4K 120 ???

Oh, and one other thing: Add some phase-detect autofocus pixels. I mean, just get the cameras to focus as well as my 7-year-old Sony a6000, which has about the most rudimentary sony phase detect AF system  and still blows my $2,500 S1 out of the water 😞

[MurtlandPhoto]

1 hour ago, Origami101 said:

The idea for internal storage is to free up space in the camera -- for a larger battery, bigger heatsink, even a more powerful processor -- while pushing the need for any additional storage to the Thunderbolt ports, which can link to fast SSDs. How often would you record more than 512GBs in a session and not be using a rig and external monitor where you could easily slot whatever storage you need in?

I can get on board with this if implemented right. Put some sort of connection at the bottom of the camera (a la battery grip contacts) to attach a purpose-built SSD enclosure for extended recording. Make it compatible with standard internal 2.5" SSDs. 

[Stab]

I really don't think there is a big market anymore for a GH6 at this point. And that Panasonic agrees.

I mean, the GH5 and GH5-s were about €2000 and €2500 at release and for that money you can now buy an S5 or an S1. Or buy something from Sony or Fuji. Image quality is virtually (for 99% of 'normal' people) indistinguishable between all camera's at that price point. Besides that, 'micro 4/3' sounds small and incomplete. 'Full frame' sounds like an end goal. Finally, you can use the whole, full frame. And it costs the same? And has better performance in low light? And you are an instant professional when shooting with it? I'm pushing it now, I know. I'm just not seeing any advantage anymore. Most of us bought GH-line camera's for the video quality and options that they had. But most of us slapped a speed booster on it to compensate for the 'small' sensor. You could also sell your GH5, get an S5 with an adapter and use your current lenses in aps-c mode. Or even in full frame if they cover that.

So that leaves the only crowd for a GH6:

- People who really love light and small lenses
- People who already own native M43 lenses and want to keep using them

I also sold my GH5 and GH5-S and G7 with speedbooster and got 2x S1 and an S5 in return. Even for anamorphic shooters there isn't really a reason to stick to m43 anymore. The new S-cams have a 4:3 mode which is about 1.33x crop. And every competitor now offers 10-bit recording modes. I mean, I would love it if they could push the boundaries again with a shiny new GH6, but I don't think it makes sense anymore from an economic perspective. Besides above reasoning, there is a pandemic going on and camera-sales are at an all time low. 

So who else, except people who love small and light lenses and or already own a gh5, would the camera appeal to?

[Mark Romero 2]

2 hours ago, Stab said:

I really don't think there is a big market anymore for a GH6 at this point. And that Panasonic agrees.

I mean, the GH5 and GH5-s were about €2000 and €2500 at release and for that money you can now buy an S5 or an S1. Or buy something from Sony or Fuji. Image quality is virtually (for 99% of 'normal' people) indistinguishable between all camera's at that price point. Besides that, 'micro 4/3' sounds small and incomplete. 'Full frame' sounds like an end goal. Finally, you can use the whole, full frame. And it costs the same? And has better performance in low light? And you are an instant professional when shooting with it? I'm pushing it now, I know. I'm just not seeing any advantage anymore. Most of us bought GH-line camera's for the video quality and options that they had. But most of us slapped a speed booster on it to compensate for the 'small' sensor. You could also sell your GH5, get an S5 with an adapter and use your current lenses in aps-c mode. Or even in full frame if they cover that.

So that leaves the only crowd for a GH6:

- People who really love light and small lenses
- People who already own native M43 lenses and want to keep using them

I also sold my GH5 and GH5-S and G7 with speedbooster and got 2x S1 and an S5 in return. Even for anamorphic shooters there isn't really a reason to stick to m43 anymore. The new S-cams have a 4:3 mode which is about 1.33x crop. And every competitor now offers 10-bit recording modes. I mean, I would love it if they could push the boundaries again with a shiny new GH6, but I don't think it makes sense anymore from an economic perspective. Besides above reasoning, there is a pandemic going on and camera-sales are at an all time low. 

So who else, except people who love small and light lenses and or already own a gh5, would the camera appeal to?

You raise some great points. 

The GH5 set a pretty high bar, and it took several years for full frame cameras to catch up.

A GH6 would have to be as far ahead of today's competitors that the GH5 was when it was released.

[Vintage Jimothy]

5 hours ago, Stab said:

I really don't think there is a big market anymore for a GH6 at this point. And that Panasonic agrees.

I mean, the GH5 and GH5-s were about €2000 and €2500 at release and for that money you can now buy an S5 or an S1. Or buy something from Sony or Fuji. Image quality is virtually (for 99% of 'normal' people) indistinguishable between all camera's at that price point. Besides that, 'micro 4/3' sounds small and incomplete. 'Full frame' sounds like an end goal. Finally, you can use the whole, full frame. And it costs the same? And has better performance in low light? And you are an instant professional when shooting with it? I'm pushing it now, I know. I'm just not seeing any advantage anymore. Most of us bought GH-line camera's for the video quality and options that they had. But most of us slapped a speed booster on it to compensate for the 'small' sensor. You could also sell your GH5, get an S5 with an adapter and use your current lenses in aps-c mode. Or even in full frame if they cover that.

So that leaves the only crowd for a GH6:

- People who really love light and small lenses
- People who already own native M43 lenses and want to keep using them

I also sold my GH5 and GH5-S and G7 with speedbooster and got 2x S1 and an S5 in return. Even for anamorphic shooters there isn't really a reason to stick to m43 anymore. The new S-cams have a 4:3 mode which is about 1.33x crop. And every competitor now offers 10-bit recording modes. I mean, I would love it if they could push the boundaries again with a shiny new GH6, but I don't think it makes sense anymore from an economic perspective. Besides above reasoning, there is a pandemic going on and camera-sales are at an all time low. 

So who else, except people who love small and light lenses and or already own a gh5, would the camera appeal to?

Not to mention, as far as I can tell, there hasn't been much in the way of introducing and releasing new lenses for the M43 mount that are unique to the ecosystem either. 

Meanwhile, the full frame lens market is exploding with new glass. Obviously a lot of that is due to certain mounts (L, RF and Z mounts for instance) still being relatively new and their companies are trying to catch up to Sony and the E-mount to flesh out their lineups, but even the E-mount has a lot of new glass coming out these days from third party companies. 

Micro Four Thirds though? Not so much. Obviously there are already plenty of native lenses out there for the ecosystem, but between Olympus folding, as well as the lack of new glass and new bodies from Panasonic, it really does feel like M43 is generally a dead-end at this point. The GH5 and the Pocket 4K seem likely to be the final hurrays. 

[TomTheDP]

14 hours ago, Vintage Jimothy said:

Not to mention, as far as I can tell, there hasn't been much in the way of introducing and releasing new lenses for the M43 mount that are unique to the ecosystem either. 

Meanwhile, the full frame lens market is exploding with new glass. Obviously a lot of that is due to certain mounts (L, RF and Z mounts for instance) still being relatively new and their companies are trying to catch up to Sony and the E-mount to flesh out their lineups, but even the E-mount has a lot of new glass coming out these days from third party companies. 

Micro Four Thirds though? Not so much. Obviously there are already plenty of native lenses out there for the ecosystem, but between Olympus folding, as well as the lack of new glass and new bodies from Panasonic, it really does feel like M43 is generally a dead-end at this point. The GH5 and the Pocket 4K seem likely to be the final hurrays. 

Most people using the P4K are adapting other glass to it. That is where M43 is still super useful, you can pretty much mount anything to it. Of course any mirrorless camera mount is pretty much like that. 

[hoodlum]

Based on information coming from OM Digital Solutions it looks like a new sensor is coming later this year in an updated E-M1X. With their renewed focus on wildlife I would think this sensor would have a faster readout like a99/a1.  I would expect to see the GH6 around the same time with the same sensor.  
 

https://www.43rumors.com/qa-with-om-digital-solutions-uk-hints-a-new-high-end-e-m1xii-might-be-coming/

[Origami101]

On 2/10/2021 at 9:29 PM, Vintage Jimothy said:

... between Olympus folding, as well as the lack of new glass and new bodies from Panasonic, it really does feel like M43 is generally a dead-end at this point. The GH5 and the Pocket 4K seem likely to be the final hurrays. 

Unless we see some signs of life from Panasonic on the m4/3 front soon, that's probably the right conclusion. It's been three years since their last substantially new m4/3 camera, the GH5S. Compare that against the four S series bodies and new lens line launched and the attention they've lavished on that mount. Here, for example, is a description of their promised future firmware update. 

What irritates me is there's no business case for the L mount, at least not for Panasonic. Assaulting Canon, Nikon, and Sony where they're strongest is simply foolish. To succeed, the S series cameras would have to not just be better but dramatically better, and they're not. Good specs aren't sufficient, particularly when there's no existing users or lenses (discounting the dozen or so Leica users), the autofocus is subpar, and they've done a bang up job alienating their m4/3 user base signalling they're bored with that and would like them all to migrate. I'm sure they will, just more likely to Fuji or Sony or Canon than L mount.

[Mark Romero 2]

7 hours ago, Origami101 said:

What irritates me is there's no business case for the L mount, at least not for Panasonic. Assaulting Canon, Nikon, and Sony where they're strongest is simply foolish. To succeed, the S series cameras would have to not just be better but dramatically better, and they're not.

The Af is substandard compared to other cameras, no doubt about that. And full frame is indeed where the other competitors are headed.

But for hybrid shooting, the S-Series of cameras are really good.

I am really impressed by VLOG at ISO 4000. 

The S1H has 6K internal, and that is coming to the S1 in the next firmware update (this spring?!?!?!)

The Panasonic lenses (although there aren't that many of them) are great for shooting video (as long as you get things in focus). Minimal focus breathing, near parfocal performance on the zooms, linear focus, adjustable amount of focus throw. 

Maybe no one cares about that but people like me. Which is a way of saying, yes, the full frame cameras need to be significantly better to grab a larger part of the market.

The thing is, for m43 (and for Panasonic in particular), they really are only missing:

1) Great AF

2) Better Low-light / high iso

3) Better dynamic range / lattitude

4) More AI features???

5) 6K internal?

6) ProRes Raw over HDMI

So they are going to be dependent on what Sony or any other chip fabricator comes up with. (An m43 sensor with dual gain optimization like the Canon C70 has would be great and would take care of #2 and #3 above).

[newfoundmass]

There can be a future for M43, it just really depends on if Panasonic wants there to be one and if they're willing to pull out all the stops. Everyone has caught up or surpassed them, so they need to do something that grabs people's attention like they did for the GH4 and GH5. 3 years ago I'd have said there is little doubt that they will but then came the LX100 II, G95, and G100. Those releases pained me as a Panasonic user because of how underwhelming they were, particularly given how interested I was in the LX100 II and G95. 

Things like eND, internal ProRes (even if not Raw), proxy recording (especially if they go with 8K), and other higher end features need to be seriously considered. And it needs to be competitively priced. 

You may never be able to win over the people that refuse to use anything other than full frame, but there are a lot of people that don't care about sensor size and care more about what it can do more than anything. I think the Pocket 4K and 6K, and even the ZCams, have shown that to be true. If your provide value it will succeed. If you don't then it won't. 

One thing is for sure, at least for me: if they let M43 go out with a whimper I don't see myself going with Panasonic or the L-mount. As much as I love my Panasonic cameras and as much as I'm tempted by their FF offerings, I'd really feel as though they abandoned us loyal M43 users. I also have my doubts about the L-mount in general, and Panasonic in particular. The alliance doesn't seem very unified, Panasonic lenses are still very expensive compared to their Sony equivalents, and Panasonic's stubbornness when it comes to AF in my opinion has become a serious detriment to the brand at this point. As much as I hate to admit it, the influencers have influenced people into making it into THE selling point and it's impossible to ignore how many people, from larger to smaller YouTubers, have left Panasonic. It's pretty much the first thing people tell me they want more when asking for camera recommendations. As much as it shouldn't, that stuff matters a lot now. 

I'm watching for developments and already looking at plan b myself. Plan b is just trying to decide between Sony and Fuji, though the unlimited recording with Sony makes it the favorite which doesn't make me very happy. 

[Mark Romero 2]

10 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Things like eND, internal ProRes (even if not Raw), proxy recording (especially if they go with 8K), and other higher end features need to be seriously considered. And it needs to be competitively priced.

I don't know if you watched the video by Photo Joseph where he interviews Matt Frazer from Panasonic but the issue with a built in neutral density filter is that they would have to take out the mechanical shutter to make room for it (if they wanted to continue using the same lens mount). So, if they made a camera with a build in ND, they would need to have electronic-shutter only. Now, that might not be a bad thing, but I am guessing the sensor would require very fast read speeds.

Here's a link to the interview. Worth watching if you are interested in the full frame cameras.

 

10 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Panasonic lenses are still very expensive compared to their Sony equivalents

If we are comparing first-party lenses (i.e., Actual Sony-brand lenses to actual Panasonic-brand lenses) aren't they more-or-less the same price about now? For example, I think there is only a $100 difference between the cost of the 24-105 f/4 lenses (and if you can live with the AF woes, the Lumix lens is MUCH better for video than the Sony lens, and has 1:2 macro to boot). Panasonic 85mm f/1.8 is $50 more than Sony version. The Panasonic 24-70 f/2.8 is about $100 more than the Sony version. 

Yes, the Panny 16-35 f/4 is $250 more than the Sony equivalent. (about $1,500 vs about $1,250... pardon my America-centric prices, everyone not in the US of A)

I guess the biggest savings though is that 1) There are enough second-hand Sony lenses on the used market to reduce the price by around third off the new price if one doesn't mind buying a used lens, and 2) there are a boatload of third-party lenses at less expensive prices available for Sony.

10 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

and Panasonic's stubbornness when it comes to AF in my opinion has become a serious detriment to the brand at this point.

Agreed. I am sad that my seven-year-old a6000 (bought second hand for $300) and $100 kit lens focuses better than my S1 and 24-105 f/4 do. Heck, my a5100 that I bought off craigs list for $125 has better AF than my S1 😞

10 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

As much as I hate to admit it, the influencers have influenced people into making it into THE selling point and it's impossible to ignore how many people, from larger to smaller YouTubers, have left Panasonic. It's pretty much the first thing people tell me they want more when asking for camera recommendations. As much as it shouldn't, that stuff matters a lot now. 

Well... true. Part of that has been Sony's "fault" since they had to really do something to catch up to Canon and Nikon. 

On the other hand, when a Panasonic lens DOES focus, it has one of the most beautiful transitions in to focus one can imagine. Meaning, it is slow but smooth, while I find Sony AF fast but jarring. Probably a lot of that has to do with the amount of focus breathing I have seen on most Sony lenses, plus it appears to my eyes that the AF on Panasonic lenses tends to ease in to focus.

10 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I'm watching for developments and already looking at plan b myself. Plan b is just trying to decide between Sony and Fuji, though the unlimited recording with Sony makes it the favorite which doesn't make me very happy.

If the a7 IV comes out and the only thing it offered (above the a7 III) was 10-bit 4:2:2 4K at 30p and 60p, I would probably switch from Panny to Sony and not really regret it.