Panasonic GH6

[mercer]

With a name like OM-1, which is recycled from their 35mm SLR days, you'd think they'd follow their own company's history and produce the smallest full frame camera.

And with the 12bit raw rumor, I was hoping for an internal version, or internal ProRes.

If these specs are accurate, this isn't how you make a splash. I mean, no 4K all-i?!

[kye]

6 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

I'm a bit concerned that both the Wow! Camera and the GH6 are going to underwhelm us all.

Has either Panasonic or OM solutions had any ground-breaking patents registered lately?

Have they had any major tech acquisitions lately?

I am sure the GH6 is going to be a very nice camera, but when you can buy an S5 used for like $1,500 or new with all sorts of accessories / a lens on sale for around $1,800 then I think it is going to be some tough sledding for the "around $2,500" GH6.

I think the challenge in the MFT space is the limitations of the sensor.

The GH5 and P4K basically took all the modes the sensor was capable of and enabled them, the GH5 compressed and the P4K in RAW.  

If the best MFT sensors are limited to (for example) full-readout 60p and FHD 240p, have dual native ISO, X stops of DR, and a rolling shutter then you can't make a camera that exceeds these specs, so the best you can do is give good codecs and features and make it reliable and in a good form-factor.

To be really significant, the GH6 will have to do something groundbreaking, which would require an innovative sensor or crazy processing of some kind.  

Still, a camera that combined the best specs and features of the GH5 and P4K would be pretty good and probably get my money.

3 hours ago, mercer said:

With a name like OM-1, which is recycled from their 35mm SLR days, you'd think they'd follow their own company's history and produce the smallest full frame camera.

And with the 12bit raw rumor, I was hoping for an internal version, or internal ProRes.

If these specs are accurate, this isn't how you make a splash. I mean, no 4K all-i?!

Yeah, those codecs are particularly weak.  Is Olympus known for improving the codecs in firmware upgrades after the fact, like Panasonic did with the GH5?

[Mark Romero 2]

7 hours ago, MrSMW said:

But what do I know...

I think you know a lot.

For most hybrid shooters, an a7 IV at $2,500 is going to be a lot more appealing than an m43 camera at around $2,500 unless the GH6 is absolutely freakin' bananas.

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

I think you know a lot.

For most hybrid shooters, an a7 IV at $2,500 is going to be a lot more appealing than an m43 camera at around $2,500 unless the GH6 is absolutely freakin' bananas.

Olympus as OM Systems has come back from the grave with this so-called ‘wow camera’ and maybe…and I hope it will be, - I want them to succeed.

But if it doesn’t (succeed), they are dead.

My fear with the GH6 is…and I am no tinfoil hat wearer, is that unless it’s a success, it will be the last.

If it is the last, how does that bode for Panasonic’s entire camera division?

The full frame line is hardly selling compared with the likes of Fuji & Nikon, never mind Sony & Canon.

I want Panny to succeed for 2 reasons:

A: I’m invested in the kit. Not so invested I couldn’t get out if I had to, though I’d take a hit.

B: Other than the AF issue, for so many, it could the best system available.

Except their marketing is head in the sand terrible so if the worst happens, they only have themselves to blame.

I like the underdog and will generally support them, if I can, over the bigger players, but in order to do so, they do need to make a product; I need/want, is of a minimum standard/spec and actually make some kind of effort to deserve my commitment.

In terms of kit, Panny/L Mount has been (mostly) achieving that, but as a company beyond that, I don’t care for them as I did previously with Fuji.

Ditto Sigma, I like them, their product and their company ethos. I like it that the head of the family makes launch videos he presents himself.

I don’t care for Canon’s policies.

Sony to me is just a faceless corporation taking over the World.

Nikon…are a mystery. I prefer them over the 2 above but I don’t know why…

Perhaps because they have became a bit of an underdog over the last couple of years, mainly in regard to mirrorless?

Ultimately, the bottom line for me is quite simple; “does it do what I want it to do?”

Will either of these new models do something/anything that my current system cannot?

If so, what and is the cost to change worth it?

Well I have few needs/wants beyond what I already have…

My dream camera is:

1: The S1H shrunk by around 10% in size & weight.

2: Sensor size increased from 24-47mp.

3: Some form of internal ND.

4: Decent/reliable enough AF tracking.

5: Full frame 4K 50/60p not cropped S35.

If an SH2 only had 4:, I’d buy it in a heartbeat.

If it had some or any of the rest, bonus.

I hope the reveal of both of these new boys is not a disappointment, even if neither are for me, simply for the sake of the camera industry at a wider level.

[kye]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

Olympus as OM Systems has come back from the grave with this so-called ‘wow camera’ and maybe…and I hope it will be, - I want them to succeed.

But if it doesn’t (succeed), they are dead.

My fear with the GH6 is…and I am no tinfoil hat wearer, is that unless it’s a success, it will be the last.

I think the GH6 will have to be impressive to be a success.  In this sense, it will have to really beat the FF offerings, which have caught up and overtaken the GH5.

Unfortunately, people want things like you mentioned, which are better delivered by FF.

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

My dream camera is:

1: The S1H shrunk by around 10% in size & weight.

2: Sensor size increased from 24-47mp.

3: Some form of internal ND.

4: Decent/reliable enough AF tracking.

5: Full frame 4K 50/60p not cropped S35.

The advantages of MFT are many, but you're just not interested in them.  You want features that are better delivered by a larger sensor (47MP), are easier to deliver in a larger body (ND), are well catered for in the common sensors (PDAF), and you're willing to have something almost the size of an S1H, which is absolutely enormous compared to MFT.

I wonder how much Sony have chosen not to develop innovative MFT sensors in order to drive people to FF where they can easily compete?  It's a smart strategy.

[MrSMW]

Well I should be able to have it! 😜

Most anyway...

OK, the size/weight could stay as that doesn't really bother me.

The sensor is already in the S1R. Does 4k, but in 8 bit only.

Internal ND already exists in several cameras, for stills and video including the Fuji X100, since the F, if not previously?

The decent/reliable AF has to be phase probably...

The full frame/zero crop is processing power or something isn't it?

Not very far off really, ie, it's all doable in 2022 I'd have thought?

Then just make a shrunk down version for the 4/3rders and we'll all be happy 🥰

 

[Jimmy G]

22 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

I'm a bit concerned that both the Wow! Camera and the GH6 are going to underwhelm us all.

Has either Panasonic or OM solutions had any ground-breaking patents registered lately?

Have they had any major tech acquisitions lately?

I am sure the GH6 is going to be a very nice camera, but when you can buy an S5 used for like $1,500 or new with all sorts of accessories / a lens on sale for around $1,800 then I think it is going to be some tough sledding for the "around $2,500" GH6.

The key piece of "ground breaking" technology I've been waiting to get my hands on is Panasonic's long-talked-about organic sensor technology (first announced back in 2013, FWIW)..."global shutter", "15-to-16 stops" DR, voltage-controlled "variable ND filter" functionality...all quoted from here by Panasonic's Takashi Ishii...

An exclusive insight into the Panasonic 8K organic sensor - YouTube

 

 

He goes on to say, "But this organic sensor technology will be implemented into the cinema and studio camera and even into the consumer including Lumix after the Tokyo Olympic Games." at the 2:35 Mark (above link) back in 2019 at IBC.

Well, it's 2022 now and I'm more than a bit discouraged to discover just how long it's taking Panasonic to get something out of R&D and into its customer's hands...9-years has been a long time to wait and I'm no longer a 50-something fellow. LOL

That they offer nothing else new in the GH6 (cough, 8K) this one inclusion of organic sensor technology (re: global shutter, 15–16 stops DR, Variable ND) would be cause for major celebration by this user.

Jimmy G 🙂

2013 Panasonic Citation:

Fujifilm and Panasonic jointly develop an organic CMOS image sensor technology using organic photoelectric conversion layer | Headquarters News | Panasonic Newsroom Global

https://news.panasonic.com/global/press/data/2013/06/en130611-7/en130611-7.html

[Trankilstef]

According to 43rumors : 

Quote

 

A source told me this about the soon to be announced new GH6:

- Rolling shutter is eliminated

- Not sure if they also eliminated mechanical shutter but there is a chance for it.

- And last but not least a massive improvement in AF. It may called DFD AI. They claim that tracking is 5 times better than in GH5."

 

Ok so we can basically say goodbye to the pdaf technology...
5 times faster than GH5, it litterally means nothing. They had similar claims when they introduced the Panasonic s5. How can they be that stubborn, especially for a video centric camera?
It's the only thing that prevented them to rule the video centric mirrorless game.

Another missed opportunity if it appears to be true (rated FT4).
 

[sanveer]

17 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

That they offer nothing else new in the GH6 (cough, 8K) this one inclusion of organic sensor technology (re: global shutter, 15–16 stops DR, Variable ND) would be cause for major celebration by this user.

Your be glad to know that 14 stops is the theoretical limitation of a senior's dynamic range, because of the lens flare. So everyone claiming 17 stops, are just gassing. Without exceptional lens coatings on on all lenses of the various lens elements, it is apparently impossible to breach the 14 stops limit. "Camera DR is often limited by flare light, which is stray light in the image, primarily caused by reflections between lens elements."

https://www.imatest.com/2019/07/making-dynamic-range-measurements-robust-against-flare-light/#:~:text=Introduction,by reflections between lens elements.

 

17 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

He goes on to say, "But this organic sensor technology will be implemented into the cinema and studio camera and even into the consumer including Lumix after the Tokyo Olympic Games." at the 2:35 Mark (above link) back in 2019 at IBC.

That organic sensor was apparently a gas-guzzler/ battery leech, and the advantage of the organic sensor was mostly imaginary BS ala the Emperor's New Clothes. 

If anything the Blackmagic 12k is superb for what it does. It does 12k and 8k, and many other resolutions, many with no crop. If Panasonic did their homework well, they could have picked that sensor and tweak the circuit for improving things, for 8k. They were too busy chasing their imaginary organic sensor (Samsung btw has some interesting paper on an organic sensor, which seemed more promising, though not sure what happened to it). 

[kye]

2 hours ago, sanveer said:

Your be glad to know that 14 stops is the theoretical limitation of a senior's dynamic range, because of the lens flare. So everyone claiming 17 stops, are just gassing. Without exceptional lens coatings on on all lenses of the various lens elements, it is apparently impossible to breach the 14 stops limit. "Camera DR is often limited by flare light, which is stray light in the image, primarily caused by reflections between lens elements."

https://www.imatest.com/2019/07/making-dynamic-range-measurements-robust-against-flare-light/#:~:text=Introduction,by reflections between lens elements.

This absolutely blows my mind and makes all kind of sense.  I've made a new thread because I think it needs to be highlighted more than in here, where it'll get buried quickly.

2 hours ago, sanveer said:

That organic sensor was apparently a gas-guzzler/ battery leech, and the advantage of the organic sensor was mostly imaginary BS ala the Emperor's New Clothes. 

If anything the Blackmagic 12k is superb for what it does. It does 12k and 8k, and many other resolutions, many with no crop. If Panasonic did their homework well, they could have picked that sensor and tweak the circuit for improving things, for 8k. They were too busy chasing their imaginary organic sensor (Samsung btw has some interesting paper on an organic sensor, which seemed more promising, though not sure what happened to it). 

So, the GH6 could have that sensor from the UMP12K, retain the MFT mount, and just use the middle 8K part as it is MFT sensor sized?  That would be incredible.  Could that be mounted on an IBIS mechanism?  I don't really know how those things work.

In theory then, assuming it kept the GH5 ethos, it could offer 8K downsampled to any resolution you want.  The UMP12K can do 8k120 and 8k160 in 2.4:1 aspect ratio, so with downsampling it could offer 120p in any resolution you wanted without cropping.  

That would be something to put the GH6 on the map!

[Jimmy G]

3 hours ago, sanveer said:

Your be glad to know that 14 stops is the theoretical limitation of a senior's dynamic range, because of the lens flare. So everyone claiming 17 stops, are just gassing. Without exceptional lens coatings on on all lenses of the various lens elements, it is apparently impossible to breach the 14 stops limit. "Camera DR is often limited by flare light, which is stray light in the image, primarily caused by reflections between lens elements."

https://www.imatest.com/2019/07/making-dynamic-range-measurements-robust-against-flare-light/#:~:text=Introduction,by reflections between lens elements.

 

That organic sensor was apparently a gas-guzzler/ battery leech, and the advantage of the organic sensor was mostly imaginary BS ala the Emperor's New Clothes. 

If anything the Blackmagic 12k is superb for what it does. It does 12k and 8k, and many other resolutions, many with no crop. If Panasonic did their homework well, they could have picked that sensor and tweak the circuit for improving things, for 8k. They were too busy chasing their imaginary organic sensor (Samsung btw has some interesting paper on an organic sensor, which seemed more promising, though not sure what happened to it). 

Um, that Imatest article is a PSA, of sorts, alerting customers about misrepresentative claims for certain SDR-class products claiming "exagerrated" HDR-level sensor performance using their test equipment. From that same link...

<<

Key takeaways—Flare light was not an issue with the high-quality DSLR/mirrrorless lenses we tested in the past, but it has become a major factor limiting the performance of recent low-cost lenses intended for the automotive or security industries. We have seen examples of how flare light can improve traditional DR measurements while degrading actual camera DR. 

Our approach to resolving this issue is to limit quality-based DR measurements (the range of densities where SNR ≥ 20dB for high quality through SNR ≥ 0dB for low quality) to the slope-based DR. This works because, for patches beyond the slope-based limit (where the slope of log pixel level vs. log exposure drops below 0.075 of the maximum slope):

     •Contrast is too low for image features to be clearly visible.

     •Signal is dominated by flare light, which washes out real signals from the test chart; i.e., the “signal” is an artifact, not the real deal.

Limiting quality-based DR in this way significantly improves measurement accuracy, and perhaps more importantly, can help prevent inferior, low-quality lenses being accepted for applications critical to automotive safety or security.

>>

___________________________

Also, that you could provide a citation for your "gas-guzzler/ battery leech" statement would help move this conversation forward; as noted in my previous post's link, Panasonic's Rep clearly states that this technology will be heading to their "cinema and studio camera and even into the consumer including Lumix" products so it would be helpful to know that feeding an organic sensor might require new battery/power considerations...otherwise the comment remains as unsubstantiated conjecture.

As for the BM plugs, this thread regards GH6 rumors. Speaking of which...

...latest off the rumor vine sites is...

<<

rolling shutter is eliminated

>>

...one down, two to go! Now if they start talking "voltage-controlled variable ND" and "15–16 stops DR" methinks it bodes well for an organic sensor...finally! Ha!

🙂

[ac6000cw]

On 2/12/2022 at 11:18 AM, kye said:

So, the GH6 could have that sensor from the UMP12K, retain the MFT mount, and just use the middle 8K part as it is MFT sensor sized?  That would be incredible.  Could that be mounted on an IBIS mechanism?  I don't really know how those things work.

In theory then, assuming it kept the GH5 ethos, it could offer 8K downsampled to any resolution you want.  The UMP12K can do 8k120 and 8k160 in 2.4:1 aspect ratio, so with downsampling it could offer 120p in any resolution you wanted without cropping.  

That would be something to put the GH6 on the map!

According to this post in the UMP12K thread by androidlad that sensor is a customised version of a 120Mp Canon industrial sensor, so may be too expensive for use in a $2500 camera, even if Canon were willing to sell it to Panasonic (and able to, given that BM may have exclusive rights to that version of it).

[newfoundmass]

I've never used a gh5 for my sports work and thought "this rolling shutter is so bad." If no rolling shutter is one of its big selling points, then I can't say I'm be impressed. Rolling shutter is another one of those things that the viewer doesn't notice. 

DfD with genuine AI has potential, but we'll have to see it in real usage and what AI actually means in this context. People are dead set on PDAF, and I get it, but I don't know that there's anything stopping DfD from being as good as PDAF with the right processing. If you remove the pulsating, which has gotten better in the most recent releases, and increase its accuracy, you should be capable right? 

I've decided to stick with M43 for a couple more years, but don't see myself buying a GH6. I think I'll end up snagging up two used GH5 bodies and selling my G85 and GX85 so that all 3 of my cameras will be the same. 

[kye]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

I've never used a gh5 for my sports work and thought "this rolling shutter is so bad." If no rolling shutter is one of its big selling points, then I can't say I'm be impressed. Rolling shutter is another one of those things that the viewer doesn't notice. 

DfD with genuine AI has potential, but we'll have to see it in real usage and what AI actually means in this context. People are dead set on PDAF, and I get it, but I don't know that there's anything stopping DfD from being as good as PDAF with the right processing. If you remove the pulsating, which has gotten better in the most recent releases, and increase its accuracy, you should be capable right? 

I've decided to stick with M43 for a couple more years, but don't see myself buying a GH6. I think I'll end up snagging up two used GH5 bodies and selling my G85 and GX85 so that all 3 of my cameras will be the same. 

Rolling shutter is a problem in certain situations, mostly that happen in videography.  One is when there's lots of motion and you stabilise in post, the other is when you're filming something moving - like filming out the window of a moving vehicle, which is something I do a bit.  You're right that it's not horrible though - I remember the Sony A5xxx and A6xxx range being way worse.

I also agree that DfD has huge potential but people are just sick of waiting for it because AF seems to have become something that people can't live without.  I personally don't care as I manually focus almost exclusively, but the wedding videographers who want to run around with a gimbal and keep the bride in focus at F0.5 seem to shout down anyone who suggests that there are other options.  I watch lots of YouTube channels that use Canon and Sony PDAF and they have out-of-focus shots regularly - some vlogs have more than the GH5 people used to have back in the day.  No-one seems to talk about that, or when it focuses on the background instead of the vlogger in the middle of the frame.

[webrunner5]

never mind.

[MrSMW]

8 hours ago, kye said:

I personally don't care as I manually focus almost exclusively, but the wedding videographers who want to run around with a gimbal and keep the bride in focus at F0.5 seem to shout down anyone who suggests that there are other options.

Not so sure about that Kye…

I just need AF tracking to work for anything where someone is walking towards me.

On a wedding day, the total time this happens for us about 2 minutes out of 9-15 hours coverage.

Those 2 minutes are critical stuff though; entrance of the bride/bridal party, exit of the couple, confetti aisles, sparkler aisles and maybe some exclusive couple stuff.

This is where DFD is totally unreliable.

Sometimes it will work near faultlessly.

Other times not at all.

Mostly it’s somewhere between.

I have come close so many times to just biting the bullet and trading it all for something more reliable just because of this specific issue.

Ultimately though, I have decided against and instead found a workaround as the rest of the package is too good to junk.

The workaround is on camera, hotshoe mounted action cam as backup.

OK the footage won’t be the same quality and some (hopefully most!) of the time, I will be able to extract a 3 second in focus clip from the 5-10 sequences per wedding where I need to use AF tracking.

But if not, I’ll just have to cut in some action cam footage creatively so it doesn’t look out of place. After all, I have been cutting in the same size sensor drone footage for 3 years so why not?

The rest of the time, DFD is pretty decent/no issues.

However, I am going back to manual focus for anything that isn’t the 2 minutes of every job that needs AF tracking in order to eliminate 100% any potential for even slightly OOF shots.

I’m also ditching IBIS for 90% of the day and going back to freestanding monopod as that eliminates that weird sideways jump glitch that IBIS sometimes throws up!

It will almost be like working like a proper pro… Even a Canon R5c would make sense to me now 😬

[TrueIndigo]

I use a GH5 and it's enough camera for my skills and modest ambitions. But for the sake of MFT survival, if the GH6 is evolutionary and not revolutionary then they might as well call it a GH5 III -- just how well did the GH5 II sell anyway?

[Mmmbeats]

2 hours ago, TrueIndigo said:

-- just how well did the GH5 II sell anyway?

I imagine it sold pretty much as expected as it was designed to sell into an existing and identifiable market - people like me, who were interested in buying a new GH5 despite the imminent launch of the GH6.  

[Mark Romero 2]

8 hours ago, TrueIndigo said:

I use a GH5 and it's enough camera for my skills and modest ambitions. But for the sake of MFT survival, if the GH6 is evolutionary and not revolutionary then they might as well call it a GH5 III -- just how well did the GH5 II sell anyway?

Hmmm... you got me thinking...

There are several Chinese manufacturers making m43 lenses at affordable prices, right?

So, even if OM Solutions / Panasonic decide to exit the market, maybe some Chinese manufacturers will enter in their places.

So, it wouldn't be great, but at least I think that m43 would live on.

But as long as smartphone tech keeps getting better and better, so the tech in m43 needs to keep outpacing it, otherwise their just won't be a need for it.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

Just now, Mark Romero 2 said:

Hmmm... you got me thinking...

There are several Chinese manufacturers making m43 lenses at affordable prices, right?

So, even if OM Solutions / Panasonic decide to exit the market, maybe some Chinese manufacturers will enter in their places.

So, it wouldn't be great, but at least I think that m43 would live on.

In this regard, the best thng that could happen to m43 is DJI entering the market full stop. That Lidar AF is amazing.

 

But it will not happen.