Panasonic GH6

[kye]

57 minutes ago, Django said:

I wish things were different as well but what I expect in 2022 from a +$2K MFT camera is absolute innovation, IQ and speed. Give us S35/FF shooters a major incentive to revert to a smaller sensor. 
 

It probably wouldn’t sting so bad if it weren’t from a MFT camera nobody was expecting: OM-1. Now that camera really delivers. Quad-fuckin-pixel AF. A first! Also brings live-NDs, computational photography, AI AF etc..

That’s not to say GH6 doesn’t improve or bring valuable features to the table (namely ProRes & that wide DR mode) but is that going to be enough? Why is the AF still lagging and not stellar on version 6?

Lets wait & see, a spec sheet may not tell the whole story but again OM-1 sort of stole the GH6 thunder away by raising that MFT bar pretty high!

I think we'll have to see.

The OM-1 spec sheet wasn't gobsmacking, but the images looked good.

If ARRI was about to release the Alexa and someone leaked the spec sheet and posted it to the forums then in only a few pages people would be dancing around each other singing "ARRIs going bankrupt!".

[Django]

2 hours ago, kye said:

I think we'll have to see.

The OM-1 spec sheet wasn't gobsmacking, but the images looked good.

If ARRI was about to release the Alexa and someone leaked the spec sheet and posted it to the forums then in only a few pages people would be dancing around each other singing "ARRIs going bankrupt!".

Why always bring ARRI in every single discussion lol? The OG Alexa dropped twelve years ago, is a Mammoth size cam built for Hollywood standards and costs six-figures when paired along ARRI lenses.

it couldn’t be further away removed from this topic. It’s like comparing a Rolls Royce and a three-door electric Honda. The former has no competition, lives in its own class and reputation, while the later is all about specs, current market and value..

Again OM-1 introduces Quad-Pixel DPAF.. something Canon has been planning for years but hasn’t even yet implemented on its flagship R3. That’s a pretty big deal that took the whole industry by surprise. One can only applaud OM systems. But on the other hand that just makes Panasonic and GH6’s still DFD contrast AF system a bit of a head scratcher. Sorry to say. Although maybe the reasoning is GH fans simply don’t care about AF? On the basis that ARRI Alexa users don’t seem bothered by its absence either ! 😆

[jgharding]

The AF section of this video is relevant.

Essentially OM1 quad pixel AF is near perfect.

 

[kye]

1 hour ago, Django said:

Why always bring ARRI in every single discussion lol? The OG Alexa dropped twelve years ago, is a Mammoth size cam built for Hollywood standards and costs six-figures when paired along ARRI lenses.

it couldn’t be further away removed from this topic. It’s like comparing a Rolls Royce and a three-door electric Honda. The former has no competition, lives in its own class and reputation, while the later is all about specs, current market and value..

Again OM-1 introduces Quad-Pixel DPAF.. something Canon has been planning for years but hasn’t even yet implemented on its flagship R3. That’s a pretty big deal that took the whole industry by surprise. One can only applaud OM systems. But on the other hand that just makes Panasonic and GH6’s still DFD contrast AF system a bit of a head scratcher. Sorry to say. Although maybe the reasoning is GH fans simply don’t care about AF? On the basis that ARRI Alexa users don’t seem bothered by its absence either ! 😆

There's obviously a pretty significant difference between you and I.  It's probably safe to say that we don't understand each other.  That's fine, and I'm very aware that people come from different backgrounds and have different perspectives and values.

But here we are in a Panasonic thread talking about the GH6...

...me posting here as a long-term MFT shooter and GH5 owner who doesn't use AF, who has posted a lot about wanting Prores and better noise performance and various other things that the GH5 struggled with and the GH6 seems to have, who owns lots of nice fully-manual MFT glass, and who will probably buy a GH6 in the next couple of years, and I'm saying that AF isn't necessarily a critical factor.  

...and you're posting here as a non-MFT user, who seems to have heavy interest in huge resolutions and in PDAF, disagreeing with me about what the average GH6 user would want.

I guess I'm just wondering, what makes you think you understand the target audience for this camera?  Like, at all?

[Django]

11 minutes ago, kye said:

There's obviously a pretty significant difference between you and I.  It's probably safe to say that we don't understand each other.  That's fine, and I'm very aware that people come from different backgrounds and have different perspectives and values.

But here we are in a Panasonic thread talking about the GH6...

...me posting here as a long-term MFT shooter and GH5 owner who doesn't use AF, who has posted a lot about wanting Prores and better noise performance and various other things that the GH5 struggled with and the GH6 seems to have, who owns lots of nice fully-manual MFT glass, and who will probably buy a GH6 in the next couple of years, and I'm saying that AF isn't necessarily a critical factor.  

...and you're posting here as a non-MFT user, who seems to have heavy interest in huge resolutions and in PDAF, disagreeing with me about what the average GH6 user would want.

I guess I'm just wondering, what makes you think you understand the target audience for this camera?  Like, at all?

Yes different strokes for different folks but let me just inform you that outside these recent debates you effectively know nothing about me or my shooting history so please keep those false assumptions to yourself.

 FYI, I've shot MFT since 2012 on the BM Cinema Camera MFT. That camera actually got me my first silver screen projection and standing ovation so believe me MFT holds a special place and is somewhat of a highlight in my career. 

As a pro, I navigate between a variety of brands, sensor sizes, resolutions etc. I thought I already made that clear to you. I use what the project requires. Shot a TV commercial last month with 20K€ cine glass.

Obviously AF didn't matter at all to me on that project, and that's because we had a full crew on hand including obviously a 1st AC on focus pulling duties.

Now the GH series, at least in my mind, was never fully in that 100% cine cam category. It's a hybrid mirrorless. People also expect to shoot stills from a hybrid and therefore have reliable AF. What made it popular for video users was that Panasonic constantly added great cine features in every model that DSLR/Mirrorless weren't yet doing. And that at a very aggressive price point.

Fast-forward to the GH5 and many of my pro shooting peers who were mostly on A7S2, switched to GH5 for that 10-bit recording. Some even bought 2 or 3 for multi-cam solo operation. That become rather tricky though due to the AF.

As Sony/CaNikon hybrids now closed the gap with 10-bit on their latest-gen cams, many have now switched back to those systems with bigger sensors, bigger lens selection and reliable AF. And my personal feeling is its going to take more than ProRes for them to go back to MFT, especially considering the hefty price rumored tag of GH6. 

That's not to say GH6 is trash, far from that. I just think it comes a bit late, without the usual exclusive cine feature (ProRes is great and counts but its already present on BMD/Nikon cams and 10-bit ALL-I high bitrate codecs are available throughout the competition) and last but not least AF is still DFD which stings even more with the OM1 announcement very strategically placed timing wise.

Just my perspective from the leaked specs, nothing definitive so make of it what you will. YMMV.

Andrew will surely have a full write-up after the official announcement next week, his analysis as an active GH6 user and longtime GH supporter will surely be much more relevant. Looking forward to it like most of you I'm sure!

 

 

 

[kye]

3 minutes ago, Django said:

Yes different strokes for different folks but let me just inform you that outside these recent debates you effectively know nothing about me or my shooting history so please keep those false assumptions to yourself.

 FYI, I've shot MFT since 2012 on the BM Cinema Camera MFT. That camera actually got me my first silver screen projection and standing ovation so believe me MFT holds a special place and is somewhat of a highlight in my career. 

As a pro, I navigate between a variety of brands, sensor sizes, resolutions etc. I thought I already made that clear to you. I use what the project requires. Shot a TV commercial last month with 20K€ cine glass.

Obviously AF didn't matter at all to me on that project, and that's because we had a full crew on hand including obviously a 1st AC on focus pulling duties.

Now the GH series, at least in my mind, was never fully in that 100% cine cam category. It's a hybrid mirrorless. People also expect to shoot stills from a hybrid and therefore have reliable AF. What made it popular for video users was that Panasonic constantly added great cine features in every model that DSLR/Mirrorless weren't yet doing. And that at a very aggressive price point.

Fast-forward to the GH5 and many of my pro shooting peers who were mostly on A7S2, switched to GH5 for that 10-bit recording. Some even bought 2 or 3 for multi-cam solo operation. That become rather tricky though due to the AF.

As Sony/CaNikon hybrids now closed the gap with 10-bit on their latest-gen cams, many have now switched back to those systems with bigger sensors, bigger lens selection and reliable AF. And my personal feeling is its going to take more than ProRes for them to go back to MFT, especially considering the hefty price rumored tag of GH6. 

That's not to say GH6 is trash, far from that. I just think it comes a bit late, without the usual exclusive cine feature (ProRes is great and counts but its already present on BMD/Nikon cams and 10-bit ALL-I high bitrate codecs are available throughout the competition) and last but not least AF is still DFD which stings even more with the OM1 announcement very strategically placed timing wise.

Just my perspective from the leaked specs, nothing definitive so make of it what you will. YMMV.

Andrew will surely have a full write-up after the official announcement next week, his analysis as an active GH6 user and longtime GH supporter will surely be much more relevant. Looking forward to it like most of you I'm sure!

I'm aware you shoot with a range of equipment as you've mentioned it in other threads, but you did literally just say "Give us S35/FF shooters a major incentive to revert to a smaller sensor" only 5 hours ago!

The way that I think about the GH5 is that it fits a niche.  That niche is where:

1. you shoot handheld in rough enough conditions to need top-shelf stabilisation, or you shoot manual lenses handheld, or you want it for really long focal lengths
2. you want 10-bit internal with >100Mbps codecs
3. you care about camera size and weight

Put simply, it's anyone that shoots in difficult uncontrolled conditions.  Adventure film-makers, more wild events, serious travel, etc.  

1) The stabilisation criteria eliminates most FF cameras as they don't have the IBIS travel.  I've been reading carefully and almost all FF camera discussions include a few reputable people saying something like "the IBIS is good but isn't GH5-level".  That leaves a number of MFT cameras and a few S35/FF cameras.

2) The 10-bit internal criteria eliminates most of the other MFT cameras, and the >100Mbps codec criteria eliminates most S35/FF cameras up until the most recent batch of RAW-capable ones (eg R5) or the high-bitrate ones (eg A7S3).  Most of those are pretty expensive too.

3) The size and weight criteria eliminates almost all the rest, like the S1H, and eliminates all the ones that rely on external RAW and have poor internal codecs.

I'm sure there's a few other candidates that meet the above, but it's not a huge number.  

There's a strange mindset in the camera industry that says you either:

• want a small camera and therefore you're an amateur who doesn't care about image quality
• want image quality and therefore you're happy to have a huge camera and rig it out

This doesn't really cater to people who want a great image but want their setup to be super-portable and inconspicuous.  Being inconspicuous is often misunderstood to mean doing something wrong, but in reality it means not having a massive impact on the things you're shooting.  Having a large / complex camera (or a tripod) when shooting in public just means that instead of getting shots of real life you get shots of people all staring at you and then you get asked to leave by security.  There's a reason that people who shoot in public a lot (eg Philip Bloom) use really freaking long lenses - not much use if you'd prefer a wide.

The niche of small camera with great image quality is a very strange place, with things like the GH5, Sigma FP, BMPCC and precious few others, and almost all of those don't have stabilisation.  

I agree that those that don't fit this specific niche may be well catered for in other systems, or even the OM-1, but I still think there's a real niche where this is by far the best option, and depending on your situation, perhaps the only option.

[Django]

..but the size & weight factor now goes out the window with GH6!!! The body is bigger and heavier than Canon R6 or Sony A7IV. Both FF cameras that shoot high bitrate 10-bit internally and are in the $2.5K range.. 

[MrSMW]

9 minutes ago, Django said:

..but the size & weight factor now goes out the window with GH6!!! The body is bigger and heavier than Canon R6 or Sony A7IV. Both FF cameras that shoot high bitrate 10-bit internally and are in the $2.5K range.. 

I'd forgive it this factor if it has stellar AF.

But, as I said in another thread, I'm becoming increasingly aware of the bloat in my own kit, - bodies, lenses as individual units and then as an entire kit to lug about, set up and use.

I made a fundamental and somewhat risky choice around a decade ago to dump my full frame DSLR to go APSC mirrorless.

I feel a decade on, I need to go through a change to get back to that ethos, - compact/light/nimble/gets out of the way for maximum creativity and minimal fumbling.

[Django]

10 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I'd forgive it this factor if it has stellar AF.

But, as I said in another thread, I'm becoming increasingly aware of the bloat in my own kit, - bodies, lenses as individual units and then as collections.

I made a fundamental and somewhat risky choice around a decade ago to dump my full frame DSLR to go APSC mirrorless.

I feel a decade on, I need to go through a change to get back to that ethos, - compact/light/nimble/gets out of the way for maximum creativity and minimal fumbling.

Right well you just kinda proved my point about AF being crucial if you're considering switching entire systems. I understand wanting compact/light especially if you're on the FF Panasonic system (one of the bulkiest/heaviest) but it shouldn't come at the expense of sub-par AF, especially if you're a hybrid shooter. 

This is where OM-1 seems to fit the bill with a lightweight body (510 grams), a class-leading quad-pixel AF system, 10-bit LOG 4K60p / 240fps FHD, BSI sensor, 8 stop IBIS and a bunch of computational wizardry allowing 50MP and such.

 

[kye]

1 hour ago, Django said:

..but the size & weight factor now goes out the window with GH6!!! The body is bigger and heavier than Canon R6 or Sony A7IV. Both FF cameras that shoot high bitrate 10-bit internally and are in the $2.5K range.. 

This is definitely a concern, considering how freakishly huge the S1H is. 

These pics aren't exactly the same angles, but using the mount should be a common reference point.

GH6:

GH5 II:

GH6:

GH5 II:

The fan/screen on the GH6 definitely adds some thickness to it, but it doesn't look that much larger to me.

Weight is another thing entirely, so who knows about that.  Unless I missed a site with more GH6 details?

 

[Django]

https://www.43rumors.com/gh6-vs-gh5-size-comparison/

https://www.43rumors.com/this-is-the-full-panasonic-gh6-spec-sheet/

dimensions & weight are at the bottom of the spec sheet.

[Ian Edward Weir]

I have solely used GH cameras. GH2, GH3, GH4 and GH5. When I look at the GH6 I say to myself I have the GH5 and it still kicks ass. I only use manual lens and could care less about auto focus. Being that the GH5 holds down MFT for me and some thing like the Z-Cam M4 looks like next level MFT. I'm really thinking of jumping into a S5 or the next version of the SHII. Anyone else feel the same way? The size of the GH6 looks around the same size as full frame cameras. The idea of seeing my vast collection of adapted lens in their native FOV and having the low light capabilities are more appealing than GH6. Anyone else feel this way? 

[Jimmy G]

@kye @Django re: ARRI

Seeing how the vast majority of recent Sundance films used their cameras, I can certainly understand a potential camera buyer's curiosity and desire to know how well a particular camera holds up against ARRI's offerings...

The Cameras Behind Sundance 2021: ALEXA Mini Rules, and the BMPCC Chimes-In - Y.M.Cinema - News & Insights on Digital Cinema

https://ymcinema.com/2021/01/31/the-cameras-behind-sundance-2021-alexa-mini-rules-and-the-bmpcc-chimes-in/

...methinks the ARRI image/look is (has become) the, cough, "gold standard" within certain creative circles.

That said, I think what Panasonic is offering with their MFT lineup, and the GH line in particular, is meant to appeal to both professionals and non- alike. Being able to shoot untethered clearly has it's advantages for numerous environments (bumper cams, bike cams, underwater, spelunking, hiking, street, immediately come to mind), it would be nice to see them include all flavors of output (read: RAW, ProRes, etc.) internally, as well.

Early "leaked" specs (if they are to be believed) seem to indicate a move in that direction, some of us have absolutely zero desire for an external recorder. This S1 shooter is, in fact, still quite pissed at Panasonic that the XQD slots have never been used to their potential, 1400/1700MBs sustained write speeds would easily accommodate ProRes HQ and RAW. (Not too late for a firmware update, folks! 😉 )

_______________________________________

 

@kye Re: ARRI ALEV sensor

Panasonic's organic sensor technology has been an ongoing interest of mine for the past several years, I can see how their organic film technology can provide for increased DR, and how their architecture provides for global shutter ability...it's been an excruciatingly long wait (originally announced in 2013, to my knowledge) to see some form of this tech make it to market. I'm a bit of a geek here with and Associates Degree in Communications Technology (heavy on components and circuit design) so I find plowing through technical specs sheets to be interesting and, I suppose, less-daunting than for folks without the background...though I consider myself a dabbler, at best. LOL

The ARRI image you provided seems to indicate single channel CMOS outputs that are split, er, "after the fact" for the high and low sensitivities. I have not looked into what ARRI/OnSemi have created, perhaps someone will come along with a link revealing something more than a simple brochure image? Not the same as a dual-pixel approach.

In simple terms, the goal here is to increase the dB response of the system. Where each stop of DR equals ~6dB, a 100 dB system output would provide (100 ÷ 6 = ) ~16.67 stops of DR. My guess is that ARRI is employing some sort of dual gain (perhaps via applied bias voltage) amplifier to their CMOS output voltages to, er, suss out (derive) both high and low signal ranges. Again, not the same as the dual-pixel approach my example showed where high and low ranges are measured/attained on sensor.

_______________________________

 

TLDR: regardless the methodology, wider DR is wider DR...here's to success no matter how the various companies get there! 🙂

 

[webrunner5]

I think the GH line is just not worth doing anymore. Other than smaller lens sizes, which if your using MF doesn't even count, they make the nearly the same size lens for FF, why bother. Well maybe anamorphic but the FF Panny stuff has that also. 

 Times have changed but the GH line hasn't evolved enough to stay relevant especially when they are charging the same money for it as an FF camera. Crazy ass strategy.

[Jimmy G]

32 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I think the GH line is just not worth doing anymore.

>snip<

Well, I'll respectively have to disagree...back in my Canon HD-shooting days I greatly enjoyed being able to shoot both full frame (5DII) and with APS-C (7D) for the advantages both sensor sizes offered...low light and ultra wide for the FF and, um, more pixels-per-duck (ha!) with the same telephoto lenses on APS-C. Same, too, with my previous Sony a7SII, a7R and a6300 setups. This still holds true for me today...

Since going all-in with Panasonic with their L-mount I've been eagerly eyeing their MFT offerings waiting for the right time to invest in that mount-system for the very same reasons I owned FF/APS-C. I've been a hair-away from pulling the trigger on a GH5S for the past few years but the lack of IBIS/Dual-IS has always been the sobering omission that kept that from ever happening. The S1's crop modes have been my "sort-of" solution for more PPD (quack) but I decided to take to public encouraging (shaming, actually) Panasonic to finally get their act together and get their Organic sensors out of R&D and into customer's hands. (We'll see how that paid off next week! LOL!)

Now, while the GH6 will in no way offer the size and weight savings of, oh say, a G95, it will still resemble the classic SLR look that (in my experience) most non-photography folks ignore in public settings. And, for me, a 100-400 will still frame like my Sigma 300-800mm with all the advantages of being hand-holdable and providing incredible Dual-IS, er, yumminess! And that 300-800 will frame like a 600-1600mm...duckies, here I come!

So, yeah, this shooter is eagerly awaiting next week's announcements and is hoping all my check-boxes for what I'd like to see in this camera get filled! 🙂 Long live MFT!

[webrunner5]

I have just been on my computer looking at my multiple hard drives and sifting through 20 different cameras I have had in the last several years and the GH5 stuff has to be the least favorite of all of them looks wise. It is just flat and lifeless compared to everything else I have owned. I have thousands of pictures and videos and it is far and away the least favorite. YMMV.

[Davide DB]

I don't understand... Granted that we will then need to see the files generated, I don't understand how you can compare the two cameras on video specs.

It seems to me that the OM-1 has almost the same specs as the current GH5 except for 240 fps in Full HD and external ProRes.

Just fto name a few:

OM-1

H.265 Long GOP/MOV 4:2:0 10-Bit

DCI 4K (4096 x 2160) at 23.98p/25p/29.97p/50p/59.94p [77 to 152 Mb/s]

H.264 Long GOP/MOV 4:2:0 8-Bit

DCI 4K (4096 x 2160) at 23.98p/25p/29.97p/50p/59.94p [102 to 202 Mb/s]

GH6

K120p 4:2:0 10bit 300Mbps
4K 60p 4:2:2 10bit 800Mbps/600Mbps
5.7K 60p 4:2:0 10bit 300Mbps
C4K 120p 4:2:0 10bit 300Mbps
C4K 60p 4:2:2 10bit 800Mbps/600Mbps

 

[Amazeballs]

Seems like a good incrimental upgrade but not a revolutionary one. AF is DFD again.. phfff. I am glad I've swtiched to Sony afterall.  I love Panasonic cameras and hope they survive a forever shrinking market. At least with one of their systems. 

[MrSMW]

52 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

I don't understand... Granted that we will then need to see the files generated, I don't understand how you can compare the two cameras on video specs.

It's inevitable, but I agree and don't really see them as rivals.

The GH line is a niche filmmakers dream.

The OM-1 is clearly being marketed at folks who like adventure sports in extreme climes (or at least imagine they do, a bit like owners of 4WD vehicles in cities that never climb anything more than the occasional kerb) and wildlife people.

I think the OM is also more hybrid/stills orientated whereas the GH's have always been about the video side of things really.

I imagine as a result the OM is going to have much wider appeal all things being equal.

[mercer]

For years, people complained that they couldn't get internal raw video on their cameras and now Panasonic is releasing a camera with internal ProRes (the next best thing to raw) and people aren't impressed?

ProRes is a professional codec.

With that said, is $2500 too expensive for a GH camera... YUP!

Can you imagine what the S2H will cost? $5000? Way too much for that camera too... even with ProRes.

I'm curious why more of the pros, on this site, aren't buying a Komodo or C300 Mark III?