Panasonic GH6

[Video Hummus]

23 hours ago, sanveer said:

So it isn't a Sony sensor for a change(?). It wouldn't be TowerJazz Semiconductor/ Tower Semi, I am guessing, either. Like someone on some rumours blog suggested (photorumors/ 43rumors?), it's probably an ONSemi sensor.

There isn't any 25MP MFT sensor leak or Information of any kind. Usually there is some kind of Sony product paper out there. So my guess was it could be manufactured by Canon. Why? It's most probably BSI and it has a form of DGO of some derivative. Unless Canon isn't manufacturing their own BSI sensors? Is the sensor in the R3 a Canon manufactured sensor or Sony (there were rumors they were perhaps having Sony do the fab)?

On Semi doesn't have any 4/3 sensors listed on their product page. I doubt they are the provider.

That leaves Samsung as a possibility.

10 hours ago, Davide DB said:

BTW this guy tests and uses a bunch of gear but basically he is a Sony A7 guys. 

Well, by his own admission, GH6 images are way better under most conditions. While images sucks for both cameras at 6400 already, GH6 surrenders to A7SIII at ISO 12800.

Repeat with me: I - S - O  1 - 2 - 8 - 0 - 0

my question is: who shoot at ISO 12800?

Hereafter some bookmarks for GH6 Vs A7SIII:

• 9:05 onwards GH6 resolution is better.
• 15:20 onwards ISO test. GH6 wins hands down up to ISO 6400.
• 27:00 onwards DR test. Again GH6 is better.

I feel like the A7SIII was hyped to the max but it honestly performs pretty badly between its native ISOs. Kinda weak codec mushy stuff as well. Side by side against the GH6 it looks like crap as far as useable detail. GH6 has the detail without being over-sharp looking. Honestly, the image looks pretty damn good. I wish it had better AF because it would be on my shortlist.

[kye]

11 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Well, by his own admission, GH6 images are way better under most conditions. While images sucks for both cameras at 6400 already, GH6 surrenders to A7SIII at ISO 12800.

Repeat with me: I - S - O  1 - 2 - 8 - 0 - 0

my question is: who shoot at ISO 12800?

I do...  but I'm not about to jump around saying that it's a critical feature for everyone.

I think it's about shooting in available-light.

I currently own a GH5 and have f0.95 primes to get as much light into the camera as possible, but it's a stretch.  I shoot auto-ISO so I don't know the exact values, but I can tell you that I've pulled the camera up to my eye in a low-light situation and as I've adjusted the aperture from F2.8 (which it might have been during the day) to f095 I see the image go from looking like the worst colour science in the world to looking lovely with rich colours and a nice contrast.

Here's a few previously posted frame grabs that show the lighting conditions.

This was maybe 50m or more from the banks of the river and the only lighting was the lighting from the shore:

and a BTS of that shot, taken with a smartphone camera:

Another:

I find that essentially the GH5 sees slightly better in low-light than I do when paired with an f0.95 lens, so it is an equivalence to human vision.  

Unfortunately, getting lenses that are still sharp at f0.95 is very rare, and also you have no head-room for seeing anything that is hard to see with the naked eye.  There's still heaps of noise in those images though:

IIRC this was shot with the 4K 150Mbps LongGOP codec on the GH5 in HLG, so there's already likely to be NR applied in-camera and also some detail loss from the 150Mbps codec too, so in reality it was noisier than this.  I might have even applied my own NR in post on this image already, I can't recall.

So, it's unlikely to be at baseISO here, which means that the image could have been better with better low-light.

Once again, I'm not claiming that everyone needs amazing low-light, but I certainly use it and will benefit from the improvements in the GH6 over the GH5.

[projectwoofer]

6 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

6 stops under is dramatic but this issue shows up at 2 stops under. I have noticed in RAW its not there, even at 6 stops under its not there.

 

In my experience it doesn’t, I’ve shot a lot of low light shots with 2 stops under, never saw anything like that. But I don’t want to argue, if you can see it, maybe it’s there, if I can’t see it, I’m a happy S5 user….

[PannySVHS]

S1 (so S5 and S1H) gives me incredible low light quality. Never had FPN but never underexpose by 5 stops in lowlight. 🙂 I underexposed a good deal and recovery from the Long Gop codec was spectacular to me.

Still, the GH6 looks extremely tempting to me. What I also love is to have the mode dial at the right hand where the shutter button / record button is located. Whereas for my S1 I have to reacht left for the mode dial. My little GX85 has it on the right side and it just feels right there for a hybrid. 4K 50p 10bit 422 Long Gop and All-I on the GH6 with juicy bitrates are very tempting indeed.

ISO 6400 give more detail than the GH5s as shown in Jordands comparison with the SH1. If I was in the position to buy a system camera for video I would go for the GH6. Actually I would wait a bit to see the footage coming out of it. If the digital edgy sharpness of the GH5 is gone it would be a no brainer for me if buying a new camera. I just don´t buy new cameras usually though.:)

Kye in a BTS shot is quiet a sight.:) @kye

[TomTheDP]

ISO 12,800 gives you the opportunity to shoot at higher f-stops in lowlight, which was traditionally impossible without a lot of artificial light.

But anyways the GH6 looks like a solid low light performer and just a good all around performer.

[kye]

The size comparison is available now on camerasize.com: https://camerasize.com/compare/#698,888

Panasonic DC GH5 is 0% (0.1 mm) wider and 2% (2.2 mm) shorter than Panasonic Lumix GH6.

Panasonic DC GH5 is 12% (12.2 mm) thinner than Panasonic Lumix GH6.

Panasonic DC GH5 [725 g] weights 12% (98 grams) less than Panasonic Lumix GH6 [823 g] (*inc. batteries and memory card).

Panasonic DC GH5 dimensions: 138.5x98.1x87.4 mm (camera body only, excluding protrusion)
Panasonic Lumix GH6 dimensions: 138.4x100.3x99.6 mm (camera body only, excluding protrusion)

 

 

[sanveer]

5 hours ago, kye said:

Panasonic DC GH5 is 0% (0.1 mm) wider and 2% (2.2 mm) shorter than Panasonic Lumix GH6.

Panasonic DC GH5 is 12% (12.2 mm) thinner than Panasonic Lumix GH6.

Panasonic DC GH5 [725 g] weights 12% (98 grams) less than Panasonic Lumix GH6 [823 g] (*inc. batteries and memory card).

Interesting, most of the size increase seems to have been due to the new articulating screen and the sturucyursly sturdiness of the frame. 

[sanveer]

On 2/27/2022 at 10:34 AM, Video Hummus said:

On Semi doesn't have any 4/3 sensors listed on their product page. I doubt they are the provider.

That leaves Samsung as a possibility.

Except Sony, most other sensor manufacturers, especially of specialised sensors, don't really disclose sensor details, until much later, if at all. Also, if its a Canon sensor, I doubt Panasonic would wanna disclose it. They are anyway so guarded about sensor details.

I wish Samsung were in the game, again. Though I doubt it. There is some secret code among sensor makers, and most make the same or similar sensors, and development seems almost, secretly, together or similar.

[sanveer]

On 2/27/2022 at 10:34 AM, Video Hummus said:

 Is the sensor in the R3 a Canon manufactured sensor or Sony (there were rumors they were perhaps having Sony do the fab)?

Wasn't Sony having TSMC fan their sensors? 

[Rob6]

What lenses do you guys recommend for the gh6? What are your favorites for the micro 4/3 system. Looking at getting one for a b or c camera for video at events. Thanks!

Also why can't they have it record in prores on the cfexpress and then some other format on the sd card like h.265. The R5 does something like there were it can write raw to the cfexpress and lower quality h.265 to the sd card...

[Django]

3 hours ago, sanveer said:

Except Sony, most other sensor manufacturers, especially of specialised sensors, don't really disclose sensor details, until much later, if at all. Also, if its a Canon sensor, I doubt Panasonic would wanna disclose it. They are anyway so guarded about sensor details.

 

Why would Canon make a m43 sensor? And if it did, you'd think Pan would license DPAF.

As for R3: At the heart of the EOS R3 is a back-illuminated, stacked sensor – developed exclusively by Canon.

Maybe @androidlad knows something about GH6 sensor manufacturer?

[mercer]

It could be a Fairchild sensor. 

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Rob6 said:

What lenses do you guys recommend for the gh6? What are your favorites for the micro 4/3 system. Looking at getting one for a b or c camera for video at events. Thanks!

Also why can't they have it record in prores on the cfexpress and then some other format on the sd card like h.265. The R5 does something like there were it can write raw to the cfexpress and lower quality h.265 to the sd card...

Well they have to be pretty fast for better low light and DOF, and pretty wide to be of much use on a M4/3. Some people like Primes, some Zooms. Doesn't sound like you might need pure Cine lenses so that may eliminate one category.

It pretty much always breaks down to the more expensive the lens the better the output. But if you are a first time M4/3 user not sure I would go for the best. I like the ones that have the Manual Focus clutch in them as the GH line is not the best at AF.

[kye]

7 hours ago, sanveer said:

Interesting, most of the size increase seems to have been due to the new articulating screen and the sturucyursly sturdiness of the frame. 

I think it was the combination of the screen and the fan.  

I'm super happy with it as it's not too much larger and it's not larger from the front, which is what matters from the perspective of shooting in public and not gathering too much attention.  By the time you put a lens on a camera, then depth of it is huge so a few extra mm isn't a big deal.

4 hours ago, Rob6 said:

What lenses do you guys recommend for the gh6? What are your favorites for the micro 4/3 system. Looking at getting one for a b or c camera for video at events. Thanks!

Also why can't they have it record in prores on the cfexpress and then some other format on the sd card like h.265. The R5 does something like there were it can write raw to the cfexpress and lower quality h.265 to the sd card...

My suggestion is to start with how and where you shoot and work backwards.  For events you'll probably be valuing flexibility over other performance, so you're probably talking about zooms.

Then the question comes of how much you care about having a long zoom range vs having a faster aperture.  At one extreme you've got the 12-35mm F2.8 which is the fastest but shortest zoom, then things like the 12-60mm F2.8-4, then all the way to 12-100mm F4 and even the 12-200mm F3.5-6.3.
I don't shoot events but my understanding is that mostly there is decent light, and many here have commented that the longer zooms work best because you're always just a zoom adjustment away from the shot.  Especially with the improved low-light from the GH6.

[Mark Romero 2]

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

It pretty much always breaks down to the more expensive the lens the better the output. But if you are a first time M4/3 user not sure I would go for the best. I like the ones that have the Manual Focus clutch in them as the GH line is not the best at AF.

Good point.

Also, good on Panasonic for allowing the ability to punch in while recording. Really wish my S1 and S5 had that ability.

[webrunner5]

Something I forgot to add was the latest Power Zoom lenses are just killer on OIS with the GH5 and I am sure for the GH6. You really don't even need a Monopod to get great stuff, it works that good handheld. It is the best on the market. Scary steady.

[Mark Romero 2]

15 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Something I forgot to add was the latest Power Zoom lenses are just killer on OIS with the GH5 and I am sure for the GH6. You really don't even need a Monopod to get great stuff, it works that good handheld. It is the best on the market. Scary steady.

Just what I DIDN'T need to hear: another reason to buy a GH6 😬

Hopefully, Panasonic NEVER makes the continuous AF reliable 🤞

[webrunner5]

I will be the first to admit that it does seem to be just about everything other than really reliable AF everything a person really needs. With all the super-fast cheaper lenses out now even the DOF low light thing is off the table.

I still wish they would set in stone what and when the firmware updates are coming. They did a good job on it no doubt, but I think they had to do it to be honest. If you can't shoot decent video with this camera you need to give it up.

[Mark Romero 2]

24 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I will be the first to admit that it does seem to be just about everything other than really reliable AF everything a person really needs. With all the super-fast cheaper lenses out now even the DOF low light thing is off the table.

I still wish they would set in stone what and when the firmware updates are coming. They did a good job on it no doubt, but I think they had to do it to be honest. If you can't shoot decent video with this camera you need to give it up.

True. 

I have been thinking about selling all my Sony aps-c gear and my Panasonic S1 and getting the GH6 (and use my S5 on a gimbal for real estate because I am often shooting at ISO 4,000). I have an Oly E-M1 MK II for fun, so it would be nice to have lenses that could work well on the GH6 and the E-M1 MK II.

The DR of the GH6 in DR Boost mode is going to be more or less the same as the S5 / S1 when shooting 4K 60p (since it shoots it in a crop at 4K 60p)

Just the thought of shooting at ISO 2,000 and all the ND filters is kind of an annoyance. 

Wishing they had internal NDs

[kye]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Something I forgot to add was the latest Power Zoom lenses are just killer on OIS with the GH5 and I am sure for the GH6. You really don't even need a Monopod to get great stuff, it works that good handheld. It is the best on the market. Scary steady.

I don't have any experience with those power zoom lenses, but one feature that I think would be of huge benefit from them is the ability to hold down the zoom rocker just a bit and do a smooth zoom during a shot.

The more serious MFT lenses are nice, but I'm not sure that the manual zoom ring is damped and smooth enough to really pull off a flawless zoom during a shot, certainly my second-hand 12-35mm and kit 14-42mm zooms aren't.

That was a thing that those ENG lenses were really good at weren't they?

56 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I will be the first to admit that it does seem to be just about everything other than really reliable AF everything a person really needs. With all the super-fast cheaper lenses out now even the DOF low light thing is off the table.

I still wish they would set in stone what and when the firmware updates are coming. They did a good job on it no doubt, but I think they had to do it to be honest. If you can't shoot decent video with this camera you need to give it up.

Definitely agree there.

In terms of firmware updates, do we even know when the camera will be shipping?  I haven't seen anything about it so am curious.  No point having firmware updates if no-one has the camera!!

25 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

True. 

I have been thinking about selling all my Sony aps-c gear and my Panasonic S1 and getting the GH6 (and use my S5 on a gimbal for real estate because I am often shooting at ISO 4,000). I have an Oly E-M1 MK II for fun, so it would be nice to have lenses that could work well on the GH6 and the E-M1 MK II.

The DR of the GH6 in DR Boost mode is going to be more or less the same as the S5 / S1 when shooting 4K 60p (since it shoots it in a crop at 4K 60p)

Just the thought of shooting at ISO 2,000 and all the ND filters is kind of an annoyance. 

Wishing they had internal NDs

I'll be curious to see what the math is like for shooting at, say, f0.95 in bright sun, at ISO2000 for high DR mode, and what that equates to in an exposure time.

I did note that they improved the shortest shutter time of the camera, so maybe that is why.  Not much good having a camera that can't expose properly in aperture priority mode while wide open at noon - that would be seriously embarrassing I'd imagine!

In terms of ISO2000 compared to 800 (wasn't 800 the native ISO for Vlog on the GH5?) isn't it only slightly more than a stop more exposed?  If so, you only need to add a single-stop of ND to your setup and it's the same.  Or am I missing something?