Canon's future: EF or RF?

[Trek of Joy]

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I do agree EOS-M is a dead end, but I doubt we'll see a M to RF adapter

That seems less likely than essentially mirroring the plastic DSLR Rebel line in EOS-R, which is the direction I think they're going to go. But they've sold a lot of M cameras and some sort of adapter would give them a bridge into the new ecosystem. Now whether its possible with a 2mm difference in flange distance is for the engineers to figure out. I'm just playing internet prognosticator.

Chris

[bamigoreng]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Why are they getting deleted???? ?

Because it will harm Amazon sales?? (but people would just buy something else anyway)

 'Freezing' thread - https://***URL removed***/forums/thread/4345304#forum-post-62002354

[Video Hummus]

5 hours ago, Django said:

Canon is the only major camera manufacturer that still develops its own sensors in-house. Just about every other camera brand goes to Sony, who have cutting-edge sensor technology.

So yes, Canon are behind in sensor tech which explains the recycling of old sensors in their current mirrorless cameras.

They have acknowledged the 4K crop limitation and are said to be actively working on it. 

We’re all hoping the new sensors will appear on the upcoming pro model later this year (1DX2 already being the Canon camera with the least crop & RS in 4K).

If Canon would release a camera without some major gotchas at a decent price range, I'd buy one. But it seems they always cripple some aspect of the camera that is hard to compromise for to push you up into the $4K price range. I mean, we are buying gear that costs as much as a decent used car, why should I have to choose between 1.7x 4K crop with sub-par (but not dealing breaking in most cases, but can ruin your day when you need to push your gear) RS in 2019? Or no DPAF in 4K (which I think the RP will have; hope not!). I'm actually not very excited for 2019 because Sony has started an arms race and owns the sensor market and I feel like Worse is Better is going to win out.

Canon would do well if released a good mirrorless camera sub $3K without their stupid crippling segmentation strategy. Their new mirrorless entries really feel like old tech with a fresh coat of paint and some lipstick. Not even evolutionary, just relying on the fact that DPAF is still not quite matched.

[Django]

Every camera company segments their products. Even Panasonic who seem to always get a free pass around here are holding back video features on S1 to protect their GH series.

That said I don’t believe Canon are intentionally crippling their cameras on the 4K crop or RS level. It’s just the best their current sensors can currently do.

The real innovation for now in the EOS mirrorless system comes from the new mount & RF Lens design.

[thebrothersthre3]

12 minutes ago, Django said:

Every camera company segments their products. Even Panasonic who seem to always get a free pass around here are holding back video features on S1 to protect their GH series.

That said I don’t believe Canon are intentionally crippling their cameras on the 4K crop or RS level. It’s just the best their current sensors can currently do.

The real innovation for now in the EOS mirrorless system comes from the new mount & RF Lens design.

Here's what I don't get, they have better sensors, the 1Dx mk2. Why can't their current gen be at least on par in some ways to their older high end cameras.

[KnightsFan]

8 minutes ago, Django said:

Every camera company segments their products. Even Panasonic who seem to always get a free pass around here are holding back video features on S1 to protect their GH series.

What is Panasonic holding back from the S1? It's the first FF camera to shoot 10 bit internal and the first to do 4k60. The S1R even does the latter without any crop. Like the GH5 there's a paid upgrade, this time to full VLog instead of VLog-L.

9 minutes ago, Django said:

The real innovation for now in the EOS mirrorless system comes from the new mount & RF Lens design.

I guess this was my question from earlier in the thread. What does RF bring that EF didn't?

[mercer]

8 minutes ago, Django said:

Every camera company segments their products. Even Panasonic who seem to always get a free pass around here are holding back video features on S1 to protect their GH series.

That said I don’t believe Canon are intentionally crippling their cameras on the 4K crop or RS level. It’s just the best their current sensors can currently do.

The real innovation for now in the EOS mirrorless system comes from the new mount & RF Lens design.

Yup, I could argue that Panasonic is the worst. Look at their 1080p... on the GH series... they offer all-i 1080p up to 60p at 10bit. Even at 8bit, it’s solid. But their G series, even the expensive G9, doesn’t offer that 1080p codec.

The GH5s doesn’t have IBIS and is explained as not having it because one production company got some micro shakes when the GH5 was attached to a car rig... lol. 

Nikon won’t meter ai-s lenses or offer zebras on lower level cameras.

Sony is using the same low bitrate 4K codec for almost 5 years now.

All of the manufacturers protect their higher end, and some protect the sales of their lower end. It’s called business. 

[thebrothersthre3]

4 minutes ago, mercer said:

Yup, I could argue that Panasonic is the worst. Look at their 1080p... on the GH series... they offer all-i 1080p up to 60p at 10bit. Even at 8bit, it’s solid. But their G series, even the expensive G9, doesn’t offer that 1080p codec.

The GH5s doesn’t have IBIS and is explained as not having it because one production company got some micro shakes when the GH5 was attached to a car rig... lol. 

Nikon won’t meter ai-s lenses or offer zebras on lower level cameras.

Sony is using the same low bitrate 4K codec for almost 5 years now.

All of the manufacturers protect their higher end, and some protect the sales of their lower end. It’s called business. 

You can pop on am external recorder with Sony and problem solved. Where is the Canon solution. That said Sony had been delivering subpar color science for a long time. Probably wouldn't be that hard to do a color firmware update for their mirrorless lines. Every company definitely has setbacks Canons are just very glaring and with other companies at least we see what looks like continuous steady improvement.

[mercer]

4 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

You can pop on am external recorder with Sony and problem solved. Where is the Canon solution. That said Sony had been delivering subpar color science for a long time. Probably wouldn't be that hard to do a color firmware update for their mirrorless lines. Every company definitely has setbacks Canons are just very glaring and with other companies at least we see what looks like continuous steady improvement.

The eos-r exports 10bit. And unless Atomos has an exclusivity agreement with Nikon, I assume Canon may have a ProRes Raw export option in the future as well.

[thebrothersthre3]

20 minutes ago, mercer said:

The eos-r exports 10bit. And unless Atomos has an exclusivity agreement with Nikon, I assume Canon may have a ProRes Raw export option in the future as well.

Not a solution to a 1.8x crop tho. In terms of 4k the EOS r is really not in the same league as any of the other companies as it's not really full frame. 

[mercer]

3 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Not a solution to a 1.8x crop tho. In terms of 4k the EOS r is really not in the same league as any of the other companies as it's not really full frame. 

Well, it’s actually closer to 1.7x but still. Yeah I don’t love the crop but as far as 4K quality, the eos-r actually has the highest bitrate all-i codec that no other FF camera offers... as far as the crop... take two steps back... lol. 

[thebrothersthre3]

4 minutes ago, mercer said:

Well, it’s actually closer to 1.7x but still. Yeah I don’t love the crop but as far as 4K quality, the eos-r actually has the highest bitrate all-i codec that no other FF camera offers... as far as the crop... take two steps back... lol. 

GH5 or S is better for 1.8 crop, significantly better internal codec IMHO and cheaper. Better color science and auto focus from Canon of course.

[KnightsFan]

8 minutes ago, mercer said:

the eos-r actually has the highest bitrate all-i codec that no other FF camera offers

...that's because it isn't FF anymore...

[thebrothersthre3]

I'd be tempted towards Canon if I wasn't neck deep in fuji. I'd love to go all black magic if I had a bigger crew. I'm getting an OG BM pocket with a 2.8 crop soon ?

[Snowbro]

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Why are they getting deleted???? ?

Because it will harm Amazon sales?? (but people would just buy something else anyway)

Probably because 80% of the threads for the eos r were of freezing & banding. That doesnt sell cameras or get you sent to hawaii if you dont erase most of them. Looks like an epidemic if not. 

[Django]

3 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Here's what I don't get, they have better sensors, the 1Dx mk2. Why can't their current gen be at least on par in some ways to their older high end cameras.

Because EOS R isn't considered a high-end cam, it's a mirrorless version of the 5D4. Canon's all-rounder. EOS RP will be the 6D2 version. And the pro EOS R(X?) will indeed be closer to 1DX2.

Also, it isn't just about the sensor, 1DX2 has dual DIGIC processors inside.

3 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

I guess this was my question from earlier in the thread. What does RF bring that EF didn't?

 

Bigger mount, less flange distance = better optics. Extra contacts allowing dual IS communication, extra lens correction..etc,  new lens ring control.

The size difference on the 70-200mm speaks volumes; going from this:

To this:

 

That one alone is going to be a game-changer after the pro body drops..

 

[thebrothersthre3]

16 minutes ago, Django said:

Because EOS R isn't considered a high-end cam, it's a mirrorless version of the 5D4. Canon's all-rounder. EOS RP will be the 6D2 version. And the pro EOS R(X?) will indeed be closer to 1DX2.

 

The thing is you'd expect high end from years ago to be the current standard. Its nice Canon is finally getting more serious with mirrorless but people are just salty about having to wait for them to play catch up. At least obsessive hobbyists are salty about it. 

[Django]

5 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

The thing is you'd expect high end from years ago to be the current standard.

 

No not really. 1DX2 is still Canon's flagship pro camera body today. Why would they put those specs on a mid-range camera costing a third of its price?

Furthermore, 1DX2 is above-all an action/sports photography camera. To achieve its FPS etc it uses a 20MP sensor + 2 Digic processors.

Those specs happened to serve it's video side well, but there is again no reason EOS R should be having those specs.

Just like Z6/Z7 are D750/D850 mirrorless versions & don't compete with the 20MP Nikon D5 that came out same year as 1DX2.

All that being said EOS R does trump 1DX2 in a few video areas: it has C-log, Peaking, Focus guides, a more efficient codec & 10-bit out.

[KnightsFan]

28 minutes ago, Django said:

Bigger mount, less flange distance = better optics. Extra contacts allowing dual IS communication, extra lens correction..etc,  new lens ring control.

The size difference on the 70-200mm speaks volumes; going from this:

I'll have to take your word on it for "better optics." As far as extra contacts, extra lens ring, corrections, etc, all of that could have been done without changing the physical mount. Adding more pins and checking them for connectivity to determine what kind of thing is attached is essentially how USB OTG cables work.

It will be interesting to see if Canon actually follows through with much smaller lenses. Looking on Canon rumors, the RF 70-200 2.8 changes in length from 173mm to 243mm when zooming, whereas the EF version maintains a constant 199mm. So depending on your zoom level you are gaining or losing length, though it is nice that it can be stored in a slightly smaller package. I can't find any information comparing the weight.

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, mercer said:

The GH5s doesn’t have IBIS and is explained as not having it because one production company got some micro shakes when the GH5 was attached to a car rig... lol. 

Wrong, the core reason is because it is a brand new sensor they're using (a very good one too!) but which produces much more heat than usual and thus needs a bigger/better heatsink (which is tough to do with IBIS). 

However, they did highlight that for a few people no IBIS is a benefit. 

 

4 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

You can pop on am external recorder with Sony and problem solved.

You're still restricted to 8bit with Sony. 
Unlike with Panasonic or Nikon Z series when you'll get 10bit (or even raw from Nikon!).