Canon EOS RP and Fuji X-T30 announced - a Grand Canyon sized gap in 4K technology

[androidlad]

5 minutes ago, Yehouda said:

Since the XC10 in 2015 Canon have a very good XF-AVC 8 bits 422 305mbs codec. Why not use it in their EOS R/RP? Even in 5DIV or 1DXII instead of old MJPEG?

Yes, I know ... segmentation ...

XC10 and other Cinema EOS products use DIGIC DV processor, while EOS DSLR/R/RP use regular DIGIC with stills JPEG engine, MJPEG would be the natural choice.

[Mokara]

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I think to be fair to the R.I.P. and Canon, it will sell in bucketloads as the vast majority of consumers are not; videocentric people as on this forum or others like it, or YouTubers and their followers or general camera nerds, but people who will walk into a camera shop and buy whatever uninformed person who works there (this week) sells them.

Probably a better camera for stills shooters than video and to be further fair to Canon, a good growing (if expensive) lenses.

But I still spit on you Canon

It is still pretty expensive taking the lens into account, this would be aimed more at the 80D/6D sort of folk, and they tend to be a bit more informed about the camera's they are using (but can't afford things like the 5D).

Unless they are particularly invested in lenses I think many of them will gravitate to the a7III and Z6 instead.

The RP is in an awkward position, too expensive to address the M50 market but too feature deficient to address the middle of the consumer market.

7 minutes ago, Yehouda said:

Since the XC10 in 2015 Canon have a very good XF-AVC 8 bits 422 305mbs codec. Why not use it in their EOS R/RP? Even in 5DIV or 1DXII instead of old MJPEG?

Yes, I know ... segmentation ...

The XC10 has a different processor, a DV5 (it is the video equivalent of the Digic 7, which has a pro grade hardware encoder built into it) and it has a cooling solution that allows it to run cool enough to do that codec without shutting down. Stills cameras however will overheat since they have no cooling, and that is why you do not get hardware encoding for 4K in those cameras. The Digic 8 family (This includes the DV6) has consumer grade hardware encoding, it can't do what the Digic 7 encoder can do. So you are not going to get the XC10 codec in a camera like this. They could do MJPEG as they do with older stills cameras, but that requires a lot of storage to be practical, plus some expertise in post handling, something that would not go down well in the consumer market.

[Video Hummus]

I have some questions:

1. Is Canon basically conceding the shrinking consumer hybrid camera market in favor of their pro (cinema/sports photography) line? Everything they have released has been old, underwhelming, rehashed tech. Only thing new is the RF mount (with Pro glass at incredibly high pro prices).

2. If you want quality, uncompromised video options in a small DSLR sized package is your best bet with a company that does not have a cinema line of camera? (Hint: fujifilm)

3. Will the people who buy the RP realize they bought a 6Dmii all over again?

4. Is Canon actually really smart in not investing in a rapidly bottoming out camera market?

[thebrothersthre3]

35 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

 

4. Is Canon actually really smart in not investing in a rapidly bottoming out camera market?

They said themselves camera sales have been dropping at rapid rates.

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, padam said:

Yes of course, but in that case of adapting lenses, apart from a better HDMI and stabilization (although it is 3-axis only for non-Z-mount) out what does it acually offer in comparison to Sony and they will also release the the A7SIII in a few months, yes it will be pricey, but with even better focus on FF video, so no doubt it will get a lot of orders from existing A7SII or A7III users.
I can see why some people would choose Nikon in the same as they would choose a Panasonic, I just can't see any of them as a huge hit, when there are many more users with Rebel cameras hanging around taking videos, most of them might just stay within the brand.
Canon can simply put the M50 sensor in a 200D successor and it would probably still sell well.

Did you miss out on all the news of the 4K 10bit output then raw video from the Nikon Z6??? Not sure how an EOSHD reader could be unaware of that 

 

Personally I see there is no chance whatsoever that the surely more expensive and possibly mythical (I have my doubts we'll see it in 2019) Sony a7Smk3 will have this 

 

[Oliver Daniel]

14 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I think they have a vendetta for us mate!!

It would be interesting to see how many higher-end Cinema EOS sales they lost to the Sony and Panasonic mirrorless / camcorder eco-system due to not having good small b-cams with Canon LOG and minimal rolling shutter.

Disabling DPAF in 4K is so weird - the 70D with Magic Lantern does RAW with DPAF - it just stays on as normal, even with a hack.

I think they deserve to be called “nincompoops” for their decisions. 

If Canon made a Porsche:

”We’re bringing the Porsche to the masses! Due to business reasons though, you can’t steer right, only left. Also a full tank lasts 2 minutes at 20mph. We felt this was ideal for these users.”

It’s a shame as their imaging and reliability is top notch. 

Do Canon want to completely OWN the growing video market too? 

“Yes we do! As the 5D mk II was so popular, we’re going to release it in a new updated body with a few more MP for the next 20 years!”

[padam]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Did you miss out on all the news of the 4K 10bit output then raw video from the Nikon Z6??? Not sure how an EOSHD reader could be unaware of that 

 

Personally I see there is no chance whatsoever that the surely more expensive and possibly mythical (I have my doubts we'll see it in 2019) Sony a7Smk3 will have this 

 

I am aware of that, mentioned it in another thread, I just don't see it as such a useful feature for most of the users (yes the have announced it for their newer DSLRs, is that really useful?), rather than bragging about: oh yes, it does (or rather will) have this 'game-changing' feature and it 'completely owns' the competition. I am also aware that so far, the AF does not seem to work well with N-Log.

The sensor capabilities like 4k60p may be more important for the future for some, at least that's surely going to be the things the Sony users will start to brag about.

Using an external record costs a lot more money and also defeats the purpose of a small camera (the Z6 can also overheat with an external recorder if 10-bit output is selected, 8-bit is fine, is prores RAW going to be better)

Everyone trashes on the Panasonic size and that 10-bit 4:2:2 codec is a paid update (but it does have 10-bit 4:2:0 internal) and yet it was probably more thoughtfully designed for these kinds of uses from the get go.

While there is a huge enthusiatic crowd looking at potentially the ultimate photo/video camera ever since the 5DMk2 or earlier, it looks like there is always something that's just not right to the point where I start to think it is almost little bit like a dead end and it is better to have at least one device specifically focused on each purpose, at least anybody who has switched to something like a C200 says how much more liberating it is to use, despite its inherent limitations.

[Kisaha]

4 minutes ago, padam said:

I am aware of that, mentioned it in another thread, I just don't see it as such a useful feature for most of the users (yes the have announced it for their newer DSLRs, is that really useful?), rather than bragging about: oh yes, it does (or rather will) have this 'game-changing' feature and it 'completely owns' the competition. I am also aware that so far, the AF does not seem to work well with N-Log.

The sensor capabilities like 4k60p may be more important for the future for some, at least that's surely going to be the things the Sony users will start to brag about.

Using an external record costs a lot more money and also defeats the purpose of a small camera (the Z6 can also overheat with an external recorder if 10-bit output is selected, 8-bit is fine, is prores RAW going to be better)

Everyone trashes on the Panasonic size and that 10-bit 4:2:2 codec is a paid update (but it does have 10-bit 4:2:0 internal) and yet it was probably more thoughtfully designed for these kinds of uses from the get go.

While there is a huge enthusiatic crowd looking at potentially the ultimate photo/video camera ever since the 5DMk2 or earlier, it looks like there is always something that's just not right to the point where I start to think it is almost little bit like a dead end and it is better to have at least one device specifically focused on each purpose, at least anybody who has switched to something like a C200 says how much more liberating it is to use, despite its inherent limitations.

You call Nikon Z features limitations, then you bring a 8.500€ video camera into the conversation with Raw lite, which a few lines above you called an unnecessary feature for the Nikon, and apparently lighter codecs than all the aforementioned full frame cameras.

You are definitely not a Vulcan!

[padam]

4 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

You call Nikon Z features limitations, then you bring a 8.500€ video camera into the conversation with Raw lite, which a few lines above you called an unnecessary feature for the Nikon, and apparently lighter codecs than all the aforementioned full frame cameras.

You are definitely not a Vulcan!

That is exactly my problem, just looking at specs sheets, price tags, claiming this one better than that arguing etc. and really not much else.

I guess that's why lurking at forum is useless in general, because there might not be that many succesful people spending time there and providing useful advice rather than enthusiasts being very enthusitastic (or deeply hateful) towards something.

[Castorp]

The thing with the Nikon Z is that it manages to have good specs but more importantly to me, has the best build quality, handling and feel that I’ve seen. It’s much more than it’s spec sheet. Love the thing. 

[Yehouda]

@androidlad and @Mokara

You are absolutely right, so the question is why Canon didn't include a DIGIC DV in addition to a regular DIGIC one in their DSLR and mirrorless. For DSLR I can understand because those are clearly photo orientated products. For mirrorless which is a hybrid photo/video market the reason is segmentation: "no DIGIC DV in a photo capable product" (you can take photos with XC10/15 but it is just a bonus).

The X processor 4 in the XT-3 prove that it is technically possible to have really good video capability in a small mirrorless body. In a body like EOS R/RP which are FF, Canon could do it at least for 24/25/30p if they wanted to.

In addition to segmentation problem there is a business problem too. The market is shrinking so Canon's strategy may be to sell new products with old technology to stay economically relevant for their shareholders. They are somehow obligate to do that to stay in the first place in camera business. Only high-end products will have new technology and good video capacity (with some artificial limitations because it is Canon...). On the other hand it is an opportunity for smaller company like Fuji and Nikon to take market shares with new technology and very good affordable products.

[forofilms]

19 hours ago, Laser Blue said:

Hmmm. Z6 sidelined for video... I have a huge Pelican case of vintage and modern Nikon-F glass that begs to differ. And Minolta MD. And Exacta. I can mount virtually any lens I want. B4, PL... Any look I want in terms of contrast, flare, lack of flare, glass-cutting sharpness of Nikon S glass.

Having shot professionally with: Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, Nikon and Canon, I’m not a fanboy of any brand. In a gen-1 camera, Nikon gives us: Full-width 4K readout. IBIS. Nikon color. Most legacy F mount Nikon/Sigma AF glass 10-bit 4:2:2 and soon ProRes RAW HDMI out. Eye AF (in May.) Atomos development collaboration. Weather sealing. Good battery life. Nikon build quality. An excellent touch interface. Nikon menu structure and customization. XQD/CFExpress speed, capacity and reliability (May.) Robust low light recording. Good tracking AF in 1.0 firmware...

 

I too am impressed with the Z6. Ticks off a lot of boxes in a very small and light form factor. I'm a former Canon, Sony and Panasonic user. I also have an XT3 which I love and recently got the Z6. The Z6 is blowing me away across the board. Really, the only thing it's lacking is 4k60p and a robust native lens lineup (for now). The IBIS is better than I expected, 120fps is excellent, weather sealed, awesome low light capability, touch interface, good battery life and eye-AF and ProRes Raw on the way! Very happy so far.   

[MrSMW]

Z6’s would be my first choice also if I was not so heavily invested (and genuinely loving) my XT3/XH1 set up.

Lack of 60p 4K was the sole dealbreaker for me as I shoot a lot of slow mo for my wedding work.

If it had been able to do that, once I got over the wobble of a single card slot (it essentially is for video and Fuji anyway), I probably would have done it.

Not unhappy I have not however and amusing as it is to keep abreast of all the recent offerings, the greenest grass is what I already have.

[thebrothersthre3]

I really love the Fuji cameras. I think they have a magic to their image. The Nikon Z6 iso performance and IBIS would be great for event work though.

[wind1414]

Padam, yes, i am with you that feeling / image and joy of use are more important than specs. F.e. owned the first generation Sony but it wasnt the right one for me, for others it is. Now f.e.EVF is better of course than it was a few years ago. Coming from medium format film The D850 gave me that good feeling, great as a stills camera and very  nice for ocassional for video. Tried the Fuji XT 2 - great camera in many ways but for large landscape prints I prefer 47MP. I do love the colours and menus etc of Canon, but for me they dont really offer a high megapixel hybrid for Stills and 4K  Video. So i am enthusiast and not hateful for sure ?

[Michael Steiner]

8 hours ago, Yehouda said:

You are absolutely right, so the question is why Canon didn't include a DIGIC DV in addition to a regular DIGIC one in their DSLR and mirrorless.

I'm no expert but I assume there could be heat issues in smaller bodies like those of MILCs. Maybe also energy issues. I shot with the C100 and shoot with the C200 now. Both have fans, the one in the C200 blows like a ventilator when not recording. Also the batteries are more than double the size of those used in DSLRs and the EOS R (and you still have to change them after 2-3 hours of shooting). So for me it's highly unlikely we'll ever see a DIGIC DV in a stills camera. 

I think we video-shooters will have to live with the fact that Canon won't ever give us what we want in those smaller Stills-Bodies. I used an 80D as a B-Cam and now use an M50 for that. Both cameras worked fine when I was shooting HD only. Now I switched to UHD and it's a PITA. The lack of DPAF in 4K on the M50 is a big disadvantage when I want to use it for a close-up angle in an interview. Almost all my lenses are APS-C only so I don't want to buy an EOS R. Still hoping for a more powerfull EOS-M body with full sensor 4K and DPAF. Other than that, what's left for us, the XC15? There are lot's of things to like with Canon: support, AF, lenses, reliability... But yeah – looking at all their releases since the C200, theres not much to be happy about as a video shooter... 

[padam]

11 minutes ago, Michi said:

I'm no expert but I assume there could be heat issues in smaller bodies like those of MILCs. Maybe also energy issues. I shot with the C100 and shoot with the C200 now. Both have fans, the one in the C200 blows like a ventilator when not recording. Also the batteries are more than double the size of those used in DSLRs and the EOS R (and you still have to change them after 2-3 hours of shooting). So for me it's highly unlikely we'll ever see a DIGIC DV in a stills camera. 

I think we video-shooters will have to live with the fact that Canon won't ever give us what we want in those smaller Stills-Bodies. I used an 80D as a B-Cam and now use an M50 for that. Both cameras worked fine when I was shooting HD only. Now I switched to UHD and it's a PITA. The lack of DPAF in 4K on the M50 is a big disadvantage when I want to use it for a close-up angle in an interview. Almost all my lenses are APS-C only so I don't want to buy an EOS R. Still hoping for a more powerfull EOS-M body with full sensor 4K and DPAF. Other than that, what's left for us, the XC15? There are lot's of things to like with Canon: support, AF, lenses, reliability... But yeah – looking at all their releases since the C200, theres not much to be happy about as a video shooter... 

The EOS R looks like a nice enough choice for EF-S lenses, it seems quite obvious to me, that they are not going to give crisper full-sensor downsampled 4k in their much cheaper APS-C cameras, the R would certainly loose its video appeal (even if what it offers seems inadequate in many people's eyes). Even C-Log is questionable in a flagship M-series camera, but the 2.56x crop (although Focal Reducer compatible at least) would keep it isolated from the others. A proper video-based S35mm XC-series camera, sure, why not (at least it is still an additional model that they can sell), but for how much, based on the XC15 pricing with a much smaller sensor.

[Michael Steiner]

21 minutes ago, padam said:

The EOS R looks like a nice enough choice for EF-S lenses, it seems quite obvious to me, that they are not going to give crisper full-sensor downsampled 4k in their much cheaper APS-C cameras, the R would certainly loose its video appeal (even if what it offers seems inadequate in many people's eyes). Even C-Log is questionable in a flagship M-series camera, but the 2.56x crop (although Focal Reducer compatible at least) would keep it isolated from the others. A proper video-based S35mm XC-series camera, sure, why not (at least it is still an additional model that they can sell), but for how much, based on the XC15 pricing with a much smaller sensor.

Yes, I too think it‘s highly unlikely we‘ll ever see an EOS-M body that ticks all my boxes. But hope dies last (as you say in german). Maybe some day a mirrorless 7D equivalent will come, be it EOS-M or EOS-RF...

And regarding the EOS R: in principle I could work well with what it offers. But I don‘t like the idea of investing 2000 bucks to use only half of that cameras potential. At the EOS RP price point, I‘d consider it (but would still be screwd when using it for stills). Im fully invested in S35/APS-C, no need and no intention to go FF...

[padam]

14 minutes ago, Michi said:

Yes, I too think it‘s highly unlikely we‘ll ever see an EOS-M body that ticks all my boxes. But hope dies last (as you say in german). Maybe some day a mirrorless 7D equivalent will come, be it EOS-M or EOS-RF...

And regarding the EOS R: in principle I could work well with what it offers. But I don‘t like the idea of investing 2000 bucks to use only half of that cameras potential. At the EOS RP price point, I‘d consider it (but would still be screwd when using it for stills). Im fully invested in S35/APS-C, no need and no intention to go FF...

My tip is on the M5/M6 II is the flip-screen (hopefully) with the better controls and build quality the DPAF enabled for 4k (surely) same M50 sensor (likely, the two codenames certified for 24MP) not a huge amount of change, but at least not a significant increase on the pricing either. I don't see them pushing further with that same battery.

Just because there is going to be a high-end 7D-level camera, its primary target of sports and wildlife will not change, so for me doesn't mean that it will not have a further crop for video (but probably improve on frame rates if that is a factor, maybe like 4k60p, the R has no slow motion whatsoever in crop mode), if Canon really showcases some new advancement for video, it would make sense to debut it in the most expensive model that they make first, like they did with 4k60p.

But I see your point perfectly on the R, Canon is just being too clever in what they (precisely) offer with every model that they make, they just give a little more every time in comparison to what they take away, and it is still working for them.

[hijodeibn]

12 minutes ago, Michi said:

Yes, I too think it‘s highly unlikely we‘ll ever see an EOS-M body that ticks all my boxes. But hope dies last (as you say in german). Maybe some day a mirrorless 7D equivalent will come, be it EOS-M or EOS-RF...

And regarding the EOS R: in principle I could work well with what it offers. But I don‘t like the idea of investing 2000 bucks to use only half of that cameras potential. At the EOS RP price point, I‘d consider it (but would still be screwd when using it for stills). Im fully invested in S35/APS-C, no need and no intention to go FF...

Just change one zoom from S35 to FF and you are done, I am also using a C100 but I keep some FF glases, EOS R for now is the best choice for a B cam, the issue is the price, too expensive for me also, probably will go down with the new RP....I hope so