Atomos Shinobi (monitor only version of the Ninja V)

[thebrothersthre3]

I'll probably pick on of these up when they start popping up used. 

I think having a bigger screen is super useful and I really have no need to record externally. This one is pretty bright and has half the power consumption of a Ninja V as well as being half the weight. For me 5in is the ideal size. Bigger than that and its too bulky for small SLR's. 

[KnightsFan]

I wonder if Atomos is seeing the end of mainstream external recorders in the coming years. For a while, Atomos had a niche market of being the best option for people on a budget to record higher quality footage. Back around 2014, I had discussions about external recorders, and my position was that they were a bad long term investment, since I thought it was only a matter of time before internal recording was higher quality. Now we've got several photo/video hybrids and budget video cameras that shoot 10 bit, and even a couple that do 422, essentially removing the benefit of an external recorder as far as quality goes. I know there are still benefits to external recorders and will be for the near future, but as internal codecs and formats continue to improve, I predict that fewer people will buy external recorders.

I think it's smart for Atomos to both pursue higher quality with ProRes Raw, and to also expand to building dedicated monitors for the market that is satisfied with improved internal recording.

As far as this product, it has some cool features. I'm sure it's a fantastic screen, and the Analysis tool looks amazing. I would prefer more physical buttons and less reliance on touchscreen, though.

[thebrothersthre3]

20 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

I wonder if Atomos is seeing the end of mainstream external recorders in the coming years. For a while, Atomos had a niche market of being the best option for people on a budget to record higher quality footage. Back around 2014, I had discussions about external recorders, and my position was that they were a bad long term investment, since I thought it was only a matter of time before internal recording was higher quality. Now we've got several photo/video hybrids and budget video cameras that shoot 10 bit, and even a couple that do 422, essentially removing the benefit of an external recorder as far as quality goes. I know there are still benefits to external recorders and will be for the near future, but as internal codecs and formats continue to improve, I predict that fewer people will buy external recorders.

I think it's smart for Atomos to both pursue higher quality with ProRes Raw, and to also expand to building dedicated monitors for the market that is satisfied with improved internal recording.

As far as this product, it has some cool features. I'm sure it's a fantastic screen, and the Analysis tool looks amazing. I would prefer more physical buttons and less reliance on touchscreen, though.

I agree on the touchscreen part. 

I'd get an external recorder if Fuji offered CDNG 12bit 444 output. 

[newfoundmass]

The thing about trying to appeal to shooters on a budget is that there are a lot of affordable options to compete with. Are they as good as an Atomos monitor? No, but there are quite a few sub-$200 that are "good enough" when you factor in price. So much competition out there that I don't really see the point in this. 

As others have said, I'd just throw down the extra $200 or whatever to get the recorder if I'm spending more than $200-250 on a monitor.

3 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

I wonder if Atomos is seeing the end of mainstream external recorders in the coming years. For a while, Atomos had a niche market of being the best option for people on a budget to record higher quality footage. Back around 2014, I had discussions about external recorders, and my position was that they were a bad long term investment, since I thought it was only a matter of time before internal recording was higher quality. Now we've got several photo/video hybrids and budget video cameras that shoot 10 bit, and even a couple that do 422, essentially removing the benefit of an external recorder as far as quality goes. I know there are still benefits to external recorders and will be for the near future, but as internal codecs and formats continue to improve, I predict that fewer people will buy external recorders.

I think it's smart for Atomos to both pursue higher quality with ProRes Raw, and to also expand to building dedicated monitors for the market that is satisfied with improved internal recording.

As far as this product, it has some cool features. I'm sure it's a fantastic screen, and the Analysis tool looks amazing. I would prefer more physical buttons and less reliance on touchscreen, though.

This will be true if more cameras begin to shoot in ProRes and/or RAW, but I think there will always be a market for external recorders until that happens. 

[thebrothersthre3]

18 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

The thing about trying to appeal to shooters on a budget is that there are a lot of affordable options to compete with. Are they as good as an Atomos monitor? No, but there are quite a few sub-$200 that are "good enough" when you factor in price. So much competition out there that I don't really see the point in this. 

As others have said, I'd just throw down the extra $200 or whatever to get the recorder if I'm spending more than $200-250 on a monitor.

This will be true if more cameras begin to shoot in ProRes and/or RAW, but I think there will always be a market for external recorders until that happens. 

Yeah I don't see why internal prores hasn't happened yet. I guess for less pro users smaller files are appealing.

[newfoundmass]

6 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Yeah I don't see why internal prores hasn't happened yet. I guess for less pro users smaller files are appealing.

I'm guessing most of the major companies don't want to pay the Apple licensing fee. I imagine Sony or Panasonic would have to pay substantially more than Blackmagic, Atomos, and the others that have adopted it so far. I can also see them not wanting to give Apple that kind of leverage. 

[KnightsFan]

43 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

This will be true if more cameras begin to shoot in ProRes and/or RAW, but I think there will always be a market for external recorders until that happens. 

Yeah, exactly.

It will take a few years, but we'll get there, and Atomos doesn't want to be caught without a business model when that time comes. Just a few years ago, we used Atomos devices just to bypass 24 Mbps IPB compression. Cameras didn't output 10 bit even through HDMI. I think this time next year, and certainly by the year after that, we'll have a number of decent options that shoot ProRes and/or RAW, like we already have with the P4K, or the Z Cam E2. Just recently we got our first 10 bit full frame hybrid. Now, a couple of cameras have even abandoned SD in favor of faster and more reliable storage options, eliminating yet another barrier to ProRes and Raw.

All these point to the external recorder business slowing--not dying completely, but slowing considerably over the next couple of years.

[thebrothersthre3]

What about dnxhd?

[currensheldon]

It's true that internal codecs have become pretty darn good and will only improve in the next couple of years, so it makes sense that Atomos would start focusing on just making solid monitors. 

The one thing that I wish third party manufacturers would really focus on is creating high quality audio options for mirrorless/dslr cameras. I'd love some sort of battery-grip sized recorder (no screen) that had a few XLR inputs and that's it. Would probably need external recording in order to have 2-4 channels of audio, but it would be pretty great to have that option. Something like the Video Devices Pix LR, but connected directly to the camera: https://www.newsshooter.com/2016/03/15/video-devices-pix-lr-audio-interface-adds-xlr-inputsoutputs-to-the-pix-e-series/

Either that or just work to improve on the XLR modules made by Panasonic. Panasonic's is OK, but doesn't really have great audio. Or even if camera manufacturers started adding a second 3.5mm jack and 2-channel audio or added a mini XLR like the BMPCC4K. 

Monitors are nice, but the ones that come with the camera work just fine 98% of the time. I'd much rather see 3rd party manufacturers work on audio enhancements - we really don't need more monitors at this point.

 

[KnightsFan]

While we are talking about audio, it would be cool to have a video recorder that can function as a usb audio interface, thereby recording sync sound from an external mixer without introducing any loss or levels issues.

[currensheldon]

1 hour ago, KnightsFan said:

While we are talking about audio, it would be cool to have a video recorder that can function as a usb audio interface, thereby recording sync sound from an external mixer without introducing any loss or levels issues.

For sure. Doesn't seem like it should be that difficult to hook up an external recorder to transmit whatever audio it's capturing to the camera to record directly onto the video file. 

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, currensheldon said:

It's true that internal codecs have become pretty darn good and will only improve in the next couple of years, so it makes sense that Atomos would start focusing on just making solid monitors. 

The one thing that I wish third party manufacturers would really focus on is creating high quality audio options for mirrorless/dslr cameras. I'd love some sort of battery-grip sized recorder (no screen) that had a few XLR inputs and that's it. Would probably need external recording in order to have 2-4 channels of audio, but it would be pretty great to have that option. Something like the Video Devices Pix LR, but connected directly to the camera: https://www.newsshooter.com/2016/03/15/video-devices-pix-lr-audio-interface-adds-xlr-inputsoutputs-to-the-pix-e-series/

 Either that or just work to improve on the XLR modules made by Panasonic. Panasonic's is OK, but doesn't really have great audio. Or even if camera manufacturers started adding a second 3.5mm jack and 2-channel audio or added a mini XLR like the BMPCC4K. 

Monitors are nice, but the ones that come with the camera work just fine 98% of the time. I'd much rather see 3rd party manufacturers work on audio enhancements - we really don't need more monitors at this point.

Just buy a Sound Devices MixPre3 and stick it under the camera. 

Am not normally a fan of the MixPre series, as I feel the Zoom F series are just so much better value and better featured. 

But for a OPC cameraman, then the MixPre3 makes a lot of sense. 

 

2 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

While we are talking about audio, it would be cool to have a video recorder that can function as a usb audio interface, thereby recording sync sound from an external mixer without introducing any loss or levels issues.

Digital AES is what you're looking for here. Some cameras already can do it, like the Sony F5/F55.

 

[wyrlyn]

ae there any external monitors which are around the size of 5 inch that able to power the Pocket 4k at the same time (both on)?

[Anaconda_]

@wyrlyn You could use any monitor that takes NPF style batteries and then use a battery like this, which has a 7.2v DC output as well: 

https://cvp.com/product/swit_s-8972

To my knowledge, all Atomos recorders use NPF batteries and so do most others.

[AlexTrinder96]

I wouldn't recommend using a monitor to power your p4k, it  could potentially burn out your monitor and camera. 

 

 

Tom Antos killed two monitors trying to power the pocket 4k via dummy battery from dc out...

 

[wyrlyn]

sounds bad, i guess i need to find another solution for extending battery life in a cheap way (without swapping)

[Anaconda_]

Dummy batteries are known to burn batteries. If you get the DC of the battery to DC into the camera, you'll be fine. This way you can also keep a real battery in the battery socket as a backup for when you need to swap the NPF battery. This allows you to leave the camera turned on all day if you need to.

This cable that comes with this should do the job. I use this exact pack to power my camera and it's perfect.

https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/DC-12-v-NP-F-Batterij-Stroomvoorziening-Mount-Adapter-Plaat-Houder-voor-BMCC-BMPCC-4-k/32960336377.html?spm=a2g0z.search0604.3.99.301c5328e59n7N&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0%2Csearchweb201602_2_10065_10068_319_317_10696_10084_453_10083_454_10618_10304_10307_10820_10821_10301_537_536_10902_10843_10059_10884_10887_321_322_10103%2Csearchweb201603_6%2CppcSwitch_0&algo_pvid=217129ac-ae21-4344-909c-7cd288a85fd7&algo_expid=217129ac-ae21-4344-909c-7cd288a85fd7-13

[AlexTrinder96]

looks like a decent solution @Anaconda_ 

 

I wonder if the tilta npf baseplate would do the job? If only they could release the bloody thing haha!

[Anaconda_]

Looks like it's essentially the same thing, but with extra holes. If you're looking at this though, you might be better off with the V-mount variation. You'd be able to run all day on 1 battery, and the size would make a nice base for the camera. I wouldn't want to put the P4K down on a table with that NPF thing on the bottom. Of course the batteries are more expensive.

Anyway, this is kind of off topic, and there's a thread dedicated to powering the P4K : 

 

[AlexTrinder96]

Yeah, should do the trick. Could power both the monitor & camera that way.