Panasonic S1 4K 10bit video mode to be present at launch with Hybrid LOG Gamma

[thebrothersthre3]

9 minutes ago, deezid said:

H264 can store 12 bit video. With a log gamma it can easily store 16 or even more stops.

Yep, that (and sharpening off as well of course) with real V-Log and V-Gamut would be a killer in its price class.
But wouldn't it rival a Varicam 35/LT/EVA-1 too much with all image "enhancing" bullshit turned off?

Yes but the codec will be 10 bit H264 not 12 bit, which I am assuming is more limiting. 

[deezid]

Just now, thebrothersthre3 said:

Yes but the codec will be 10 bit H264 not 12 bit, which I am assuming is more limiting. 

As limiting as ProRes 422

[thebrothersthre3]

2 minutes ago, deezid said:

As limiting as ProRes 422

Doesn't the higher compression make it less robust? Although I guess the EVA1 shoots in H264 and gets about 14 stops(probably closer to 13), but still very high. Maybe they are handicapping it then ?

[androidlad]

8 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Yes but the codec will be 10 bit H264 not 12 bit, which I am assuming is more limiting. 

10bit log can efficiently store up to 16 stops of dynamic range.

Panasonic is totally a codec expert, they developed AVC codec family based on H.264 (AVC-Intra, AVC-Ultra) for broadcast use.

[deezid]

1 minute ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Doesn't the higher compression make it less robust? Although I guess the EVA1 shoots in H264 and gets about 14 stops(probably closer to 13), but still very high. Maybe they are handicapping it then ?

H264 is more efficient than ProRes so it's kinda equal.
ProRes usually decodes faster though.

2 minutes ago, androidlad said:

10bit log can efficiently store up to 16 stops of dynamic range.

Panasonic is totally a codec expert, they developed AVC codec family based on H.264 (AVC-Intra, AVC-Ultra) for broadcast use.

I agree
Even the 150mbit never caused any issues.
Only issues I had were

• no proper ACES or color management support
• strong processing

Maybe they fix it this time

[androidlad]

On 2/17/2019 at 6:15 AM, Cliff Totten said:

About the S1's dynamic range....I have two questions:

1.) What in the Hell is this mystery sensor? Who's tech is in it? Some think it might be an IMX410 (A7-III & Z6) Meanwhile, some are saying its a  completely brand new sensor that nobody has ever seen before. There are rumors it's NOT even a back side illuminated chip. Samsung IsoCell??

2.) Panny might very well calibrate it's video A/D conversion and raw readout to NOT exceed 12stops. Supposedly, this could have been a demand that VariCam managers had placed on these S cameras. You can bet your life that the VariCam group did NOT want a high sensor read clock speed (intentional rolling shutter) and wanted it capped at 12stops.

Who knows? We will find out more in the months that follow. On the GH5/GH5-S,...HLG matches VLog-L in dynamic range.

S1 uses IMX410, S1R uses a new TowerJazz sensor with evolved "Smart FSI".

In video mode, sensor readout drive is 12bit ADC. There's no intentional capping, it's just current technological limits.

[deezid]

11 minutes ago, androidlad said:

S1 uses IMX410, S1R uses a new TowerJazz sensor with evolved "Smart FSI".

In video mode, sensor readout drive is 12bit ADC. There's no intentional capping, it's just current technological limits.

good point. That's why 16 bit still image raw results on DXOmark are irrelevant for us video users.

[androidlad]

5 minutes ago, deezid said:

good point. That's why 16 bit still image raw results on DXOmark are irrelevant for us video users.

Yeah. There's no actual 16bit RAW stills cameras though, some of the medium format cameras output "16bit" but only using 14bit ADC, like all other cameras.

Only recent Sony gen 4 gen 5 sensors (IMX461, IMX571) offer 16bit option, Fujifilm did not use it and are not going to use it for GFX100 mostly because the picture quality improvement is negligible.

[liork]

17 hours ago, androidlad said:

S1 uses IMX410

This is a BSI sensor. Have you seen any indication that S1 sensor has BSI?

[Cliff Totten]

On 2/19/2019 at 6:55 AM, liork said:

This is a BSI sensor. Have you seen any indication that S1 sensor has BSI?

It's literally impossible for us to know what sensor is in this thing. IMX410, Samsung IsoCell, TowerJazz? How many times do we always hear "No, its not a Sony sensor" only to find out that is IS certainly a Sony sensor 6 months later? 

Panasonic NAB booth...."No!...the GH5 is absolutely NOT a Sony sensor, its a Panasonic chip"...TechInsights then blows that out of the water and says "No Panisonic, our labs and x-ray machines identify it as a Sony IM272"  Next year same thing. "No Panasonic, the GH5-S is a Sony IMX299" Same thing with the Nikon D850 and now Z6 and BlackMagic pocket 4k....more and more Sony sensors.

For some reason, every camera company is embarassed to say that Sony pattens are all over their image sensor.... the most important part of every camera. Its no use lying about it anymore....Tech Insights will expose you eventually.

[liork]

Yes we know it, but in this case, could Panasonic be using a BSI sensor and hiding this fact? 

[tomsemiterrific]

So, Andrew, what adapters would you recommend for FD/EF/Nikon MF lenses?

[PrometheusDM]

On 2/15/2019 at 3:31 PM, mat33 said:

I was considering the S1 but its a bit of a strange release.  How many advanced/pro photographers are really going to dump their Canon/Nikon/Sony cameras/lenses for a Panasonic, the big 3 all have pretty compelling hybrid mirrorless offerings now and while the S1 is a mighty fine camera, does it do enough to get people to switch and commit to the new system?

I am interested in it as a still only Canon shooter.

This will accept EF lenses via MC-21 adapter. Sigma EF will have native support via FW update. For $200 more than EOS R, this offer dual card slot (XQD/CFE), newer sensor than 5D IV/EOSR with better ISO and hopefully DR, IBIS, better 4K, better EVF, better video options. While Canon lenses are very nice, I don't shoot 50 1.2 or care too much about their $3000 28-70 F2. 

ALL FF mirror-less lenses are expensive but I expect Sigma mirrorless lenses to be affordable.

[thebrothersthre3]

Sigma already has a lot of nice full frame glass, it was a good move. 

[PrometheusDM]

On 3/26/2019 at 10:00 AM, thebrothersthre3 said:

Sigma already has a lot of nice full frame glass, it was a good move. 

Alot of Canon users still think Canon L lenses are king but I think the mystique is gone when it was just Canon vs Nikon. I think all current lenses manufacturers are very capable including third party lenses such as Sigma & Tamron. 

My last 4 lenses purchases has been third party lenses. I had only Canon 24-70 2.8 II that is still Canon. I would be happy with any trinity lenses from any company.

Given how much Tamron and Sigma has progress and my shooting preference now compared 10 years ago, I realized Canon doesn't serve me anymore. I am more excited about Panasonic S1 than any camera that came out in the past 5 years. 

MC-21 adapter is coming out 4/19. Perfect timing.

[TrueIndigo]

The Panasonic press release for the paid-for SI upgrade is on DPreview. Should be coming by July, but still no price:

 

https://***URL removed***/news/5805992591/panasonic-s1-10-bit-and-v-log-paid-upgrade-coming-in-july

 

[Video Hummus]

The future will be compressed RAW or in more exact terms Direct Bayer data compression.

I wish and hope Panasonic will add ProRes RAW support via HDMI to an Atomos device to their GH5S and EVA1.

It pushes closer to have ProRes 4444 but with ProRes HQ file sizes and way better compression than HQ (since it’s directly compressing Bayer data).

The GH5S is a great little powerhouse of a camera. I bought it over the P4K because it’s weather sealed, more compact, and has useable AF in most situations.