NAB 2019 Predictions and Wishes

[thebrothersthre3]

27 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

Hopefully, yeah. I don't see why low light would necessarily be worse, if they do a full readout and have a fair comparison (4k vs 4k). I find the XT3 has good enough low light for me, so as long as it isn't much worse than that I'd be happy.

I wonder what mount they would go with for S35. I'd love to see MFT a la that JVC camera, or if they surprised everyone and threw in with the L mount lot.

3k would be nice, but my gut says more like 4k. Fingers crossed though!

Why MFT mount on a S35 sensor? 

I am pretty happy with the XT3, though I'd love if they did a similar setup to the A7S2 or GH5S. 4K sensor with 10mp for increased low light performance. A fairly clean 12,800 iso would be awesome. Something like that with 4k 60p and internal prores would be cool. 

[KnightsFan]

Just now, thebrothersthre3 said:

Why MFT mount on a S35 sensor? 

I am pretty happy with the XT3, though I'd love if they did a similar setup to the A7S2 or GH5S. 4K sensor with 10mp for increased low light performance. A fairly clean 12,800 iso would be awesome. Something like that with 4k 60p and internal prores would be cool. 

For adapting! And JVC had that neat feature where you put a M43 lens on and it just uses a M43 crop the sensor, or you could put a S35 lens on and use the whole thing. Very flexible. To be honest, though, I'd go for any mount that you can get an EF lens onto.

The only real downside to higher MP is more rolling shutter, if the processor isn't upgraded as well. High MP with downscaling is great for low light. I'm sure all near-future Z Cam products will have 4k60 ProRes in addition to H.265. I don't think they'll have 4k120 though, they seemed to imply that was a unique feature for the E2.

It will be interesting to see if Canon makes a decent cinema camera. Their latest photo cameras have been disappointing for video to say the least. It would be quite forgivable in my eyes if they came out with a good low budget RF video camera, as a complement to the R and RP.

[Mokara]

Anything further developments along the lines of the XC body would depend on how well the 10/15 sold. I doubt they would do significant new development other than updating the electronics if sales were low. I have never actually seen an XC physically, so I suspect that they did not sell too many of them. 

[currensheldon]

7 minutes ago, Mokara said:

Anything further developments along the lines of the XC body would depend on how well the 10/15 sold. I doubt they would do significant new development other than updating the electronics if sales were low. I have never actually seen an XC physically, so I suspect that they did not sell too many of them. 

Most of the XC-style posts are referencing the long-term rumor about an XC-style camera with interchangeable lens mount: https://www.canonrumors.com/patent-canon-xc-style-camera-with-interchangeable-lenses/ - there have also been quite a few rumors about a cinema camera unlike anything Canon has done before plus a rumor today that said to expect an “exciting” new cinema camera, possible ahead of NAB in April"

So, if there is an "XC-style cinema camera," it will probably be an APS-C RF mount camera that is a stop-gap where the C100 Mark II used to sit - somewhere between mirrorless/DSLR video and the C200/C300. 

Since we have the C200 and pretty soon a new C300 to choose from, I think it would be smart to make a more mirrorless-like mini cinema camera. 

 

[AaronChicago]

Alexa Mini LF

[IronFilm]

13 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Ideally, a Fuji XH2 which according to my spec would be; updated XH1 to include larger battery, XT3 sensor. Maybe in 2020...

However, right now, they could cease XH1 sales and knock out an XH1S with just the sensor of the XT3. Easily.

Well, much more than just the sensor of the XT3, you want the processor power to of the XT3 which gives us 4K 10bit internal

 

13 hours ago, Django said:

- The C100 mk2 is in dire need of an upgrade. a C100mk3 with 10-bit 4K 422 to SD (no CFAST raw) and pro res RAW out for $5-6K would do a killing in the cine cam market.

Knowing Canon, I just feel very doubtful they'll be giving out 10-bit 4K 422 to SD in C100 in 2019 (maybe 2023... ha!).
And ProRes RAW? Nope!

 

13 hours ago, Django said:

- Offer them in RF versions too..

RF has only just barely been launched in the stills world, I reckon it will be another year or two at least until we see it in a cinema camera from Canon. (their world moves slower than stills consumer world does at Canon)

[IronFilm]

13 hours ago, Django said:

- also add an MK cine prime lens trinity.

Adding a wide angle T2.9 zoom to complete out their MKX zoom range would be nice. 

But yeah, also say some T1.4 (or at least T2 or faster) primes in their MK range for mirrorless mounts would be nice. As at the moment there doesn't exist any cinema prime lenses for mirrorless mounts with interchangeable mounts (aside from Veydra, who might have sunk?).

[kye]

9 hours ago, currensheldon said:

Agreed - and if it's someone who can disrupt a bit (like Fuji), then throw in some IBIS while you're at it. 

I agree about IBIS.  Making a tiny camera and then having to pack a gimbal, shoulder rig, or tripod to go with it sure takes away a lot of the advantages of making it small and light.

5 hours ago, Mokara said:

Anything further developments along the lines of the XC body would depend on how well the 10/15 sold. I doubt they would do significant new development other than updating the electronics if sales were low. I have never actually seen an XC physically, so I suspect that they did not sell too many of them. 

The XC10 is an invisible camera.  People who bought it don't talk online about their C-cameras and that's what the XC10/15 is.  XC10 footage is as good as C300 footage for most shots, so as long as you're using it within its design limitations then you could be seeing the footage from it every day and not have a clue.

Canon said they sold more of them than expected and they are seen on Hollywood sets recording BTS and interviews.

4 hours ago, currensheldon said:

Most of the XC-style posts are referencing the long-term rumor about an XC-style camera with interchangeable lens mount: https://www.canonrumors.com/patent-canon-xc-style-camera-with-interchangeable-lenses/ - there have also been quite a few rumors about a cinema camera unlike anything Canon has done before plus a rumor today that said to expect an “exciting” new cinema camera, possible ahead of NAB in April"

So, if there is an "XC-style cinema camera," it will probably be an APS-C RF mount camera that is a stop-gap where the C100 Mark II used to sit - somewhere between mirrorless/DSLR video and the C200/C300. 

Since we have the C200 and pretty soon a new C300 to choose from, I think it would be smart to make a more mirrorless-like mini cinema camera. 

Interesting observations and it would probably sell well.  They practiced a bit with the XC10/15 so should know how to combine the C100, the XC10/15, and their lenses for a good product.  If it was an RF mount then they'd have to make sure that an adapter was available and worked well.  That form-factor really lends itself to people using the 18-35 f1.8 and other similar lenses, so EF support would be mandatory - no-one buying a C50 would want to re-buy all their lenses.  The EF-M mount might be the better alternative.

[currensheldon]

22 minutes ago, kye said:

I agree about IBIS.  Making a tiny camera and then having to pack a gimbal, shoulder rig, or tripod to go with it sure takes away a lot of the advantages of making it small and light.

The XC10 is an invisible camera.  People who bought it don't talk online about their C-cameras and that's what the XC10/15 is.  XC10 footage is as good as C300 footage for most shots, so as long as you're using it within its design limitations then you could be seeing the footage from it every day and not have a clue.

Canon said they sold more of them than expected and they are seen on Hollywood sets recording BTS and interviews.

Interesting observations and it would probably sell well.  They practiced a bit with the XC10/15 so should know how to combine the C100, the XC10/15, and their lenses for a good product.  If it was an RF mount then they'd have to make sure that an adapter was available and worked well.  That form-factor really lends itself to people using the 18-35 f1.8 and other similar lenses, so EF support would be mandatory - no-one buying a C50 would want to re-buy all their lenses.  The EF-M mount might be the better alternative.

The EF to RF mount adapters (Canon has three different ones) are all excellent. I use all EF glass on my EOS R right now and the adapter stays on the camera and honestly feels as solid as a native EF mount. Autofocus seems just as snappy as a native EF mount as well. Very much looking forward to the adapter that has the variable ND in it that's supposed to be shipping in the next couple of weeks.

Canon has a done a great job with adapters for the RF Mount so I don't see any problem putting the RF Mount on new cinema or video cameras at all. Could even ship with an adapter to start (like the RP and R do now) - but it's a much better long-term solution to go with the RF Mount. I doubt I'll buy another EF video camera with a Super35 sensor due to the lack of solid lenses for that format. At least with the RF you have the potential for speedboosters and many more true Super35 lenses. 

[kye]

14 minutes ago, currensheldon said:

The EF to RF mount adapters (Canon has three different ones) are all excellent. I use all EF glass on my EOS R right now and the adapter stays on the camera and honestly feels as solid as a native EF mount. Autofocus seems just as snappy as a native EF mount as well. Very much looking forward to the adapter that has the variable ND in it that's supposed to be shipping in the next couple of weeks.

Canon has a done a great job with adapters for the RF Mount so I don't see any problem putting the RF Mount on new cinema or video cameras at all. Could even ship with an adapter to start (like the RP and R do now) - but it's a much better long-term solution to go with the RF Mount. I doubt I'll buy another EF video camera with a Super35 sensor due to the lack of solid lenses for that format. At least with the RF you have the potential for speedboosters and many more true Super35 lenses. 

Makes sense to me.  Of course, that's not always a predictor of what Canon will do, so who knows!! ???

[thebrothersthre3]

7 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

For adapting! And JVC had that neat feature where you put a M43 lens on and it just uses a M43 crop the sensor, or you could put a S35 lens on and use the whole thing. Very flexible. To be honest, though, I'd go for any mount that you can get an EF lens onto.

The only real downside to higher MP is more rolling shutter, if the processor isn't upgraded as well. High MP with downscaling is great for low light. I'm sure all near-future Z Cam products will have 4k60 ProRes in addition to H.265. I don't think they'll have 4k120 though, they seemed to imply that was a unique feature for the E2.

It will be interesting to see if Canon makes a decent cinema camera. Their latest photo cameras have been disappointing for video to say the least. It would be quite forgivable in my eyes if they came out with a good low budget RF video camera, as a complement to the R and RP.

Is it easy to find APSC to M43 adapters though? Seems like a big advantage to a bigger sensor is you can use longer lenses with less crop. 

Low rolling shutter is definitely nice too although its lower on the GH5 and even more so the GH5S than the Z cam. The A7S2 still seems to be the low light king, which is why it seems like the low MP 4k sensors seem to be the best way to go. 

That would be awesome if they released a low budget video camera, though I don't think that would be a Canon thing to do. ??

[IronFilm]

15 hours ago, Django said:

Nikon:

- Same as above (I'd really like to see smaller cine/video cams with built-in IBIS, battery/recorder options inside the pistol grip & flip out screen on the side):

Yes, Nikon along with Fujifilm (just purchased a Fujifilm camera btw!) are the two new players I'd love to see enter the digital cinema market with their take on a C100/C300/FS5/FS7/EVA1 level camera. 

[kye]

1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Is it easy to find APSC to M43 adapters though? Seems like a big advantage to a bigger sensor is you can use longer lenses with less crop. 

Low rolling shutter is definitely nice too although its lower on the GH5 and even more so the GH5S than the Z cam. The A7S2 still seems to be the low light king, which is why it seems like the low MP 4k sensors seem to be the best way to go. 

That would be awesome if they released a low budget video camera, though I don't think that would be a Canon thing to do. ??

The MFT mount has one of the lowest flange distances of any mount, so you can adapt almost any lens onto it.  With EF the distance is much larger and so there are a bunch of lenses you can't adapt to EF.  it won't matter to most people, but if you happen to fall desperately in love with any of the lenses in that in-between range then it rules out the whole camera because of the mount.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flange_focal_distance lists them.

[Edit: and specifically because those lenses can't be adapted to EF, and because EF is the standard mount for many people, those lenses in the 'gap' can be massive bargains!  ]

[thebrothersthre3]

Just now, kye said:

The MFT mount has one of the lowest flange distances of any mount, so you can adapt almost any lens onto it.  With EF the distance is much larger and so there are a bunch of lenses you can't adapt to EF.  it won't matter to most people, but if you happen to fall desperately in love with any of the lenses in that in-between range then it rules out the whole camera because of the mount.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flange_focal_distance lists them.

I am an idiot haha. I owned several M43 cameras so I know you can adapt any lens to it (well anything m43 or larger). I was thinking M43 to APSC mount, which is rare. My brain was out of order?

So yeah an M43 mount does make sense. 

[IronFilm]

17 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I'm hoping that a small company pops-up that takes the internals of stock cameras and re-houses them with custom integrated add ons to make 'new' products.

There is definitely the scope for someone to take the guts of Pocket 4K for example and create something in a different but still compact form factor that sits in that £3-3.5K area that addresses what people are asking for with regard to internal electronic ND, better audio interface, power, an EVF etc

The volume may not be there for manufacturers to make something like that but there may well be enough demand for a small company to make a living from it.

I'm sure I've read about in the past about companies trying this before? 

But the problem is the costs to do this well on a small scale are so high, that if you're pushing up near in cost to say a secondhand FS7/UMP, then it becomes pointless. As a person would just buy a mainstream camera instead. 

 

15 hours ago, currensheldon said:

My two main needs for a cinema camera are:
- 10-bit 4K Codec and
- Small, lightweight design (FS5-sized or smaller).

How the main 4-5 manufacturers haven't released a camera like that by 2019 is a mystery to me. 

It exists. 
Is called the "Panasonic EVA1"

[IronFilm]

15 hours ago, currensheldon said:

Yes the EVA-1 was really close. I like that camera and have used it on quite a few jobs. Codec-wise and image wise, it's incredible. Would love something a bit smaller with a modern mount (for adapters/speedboosters) and a useable screen.

Was mindboggling that Panasonic gave the cold shoulder to their own Micro Four Thirds mount. 

13 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Maybe even the battery from the GFX series?

Would be a good idea, means Fujifilm doesn't have to invent a new battery style for their cameras. Keeps the number of SKUs down. 
(and makes Fuji fans who own both APSC and MF systems happy!)
 

 

13 hours ago, MeanRevert said:

Speaking for myself, I would buy the shit out of a Fuji XT3 with flippy screen.

Sony just has to add a flippy screen to their next model and I'm on board too!

It is an underrated feature! I just purchased a camera today largely because it was cheap and had a selfie screen.

 

12 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Why MFT mount on a S35 sensor? 

Because MFT is the most versatile and open mount available. 

 

10 hours ago, AaronChicago said:

Alexa Mini LF

My guess is it will happen, but not in 2019! Still far too soon.

 

[BTM_Pix]

4 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I'm sure I've read about in the past about companies trying this before? 

But the problem is the costs to do this well on a small scale are so high, that if you're pushing up near in cost to say a secondhand FS7/UMP, then it becomes pointless. As a person would just buy a mainstream camera instead. 

 

The issue is the form factor as much as the price in the example that I gave of the Pocket 4K.

You could enhance that product and arguably actually make it even smaller or at the very least a different shape to make it less problematic for a gimbal.

The move for someone into a much larger form factor like an FS7/UMP entails everything else getting bigger in terms of tripod, power etc so it then becomes a different overall proposition.

This also follows on with the lenses as well of course by retaining the MFT mount so it can use small native lenses but also of course adapt pretty much everything else on to it.

I suppose the real test of this is if BM announced a more Z Cam E2 style version of the Pocket4K at NAB with the additions I'm looking at for £3-3.5K would it get a few orders?

I think it might do.

You never know, maybe they will !

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Is it easy to find APSC to M43 adapters though? Seems like a big advantage to a bigger sensor is you can use longer lenses with less crop. 

"APS-C to MFT" adapters do not exist, in the sense there is no generic "APS-C mount". 

Rather you have "Nikon F to MFT" or "Canon EF to MFT" or etc adapters to MFT, which would all work just the same even with an APS-C sensor behind the MFT mount.

 

[thebrothersthre3]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

"APS-C to MFT" adapters do not exist, in the sense there is no generic "APS-C mount". 

Rather you have "Nikon F to MFT" or "Canon EF to MFT" or etc adapters to MFT, which would all work just the same even with an APS-C sensor behind the MFT mount.

 

Yeah I was just using APSC to refur to all s35 sensors as their is no standard mount like m43, unfortunately.

[Xx123456xX]

I hope that exact cinema 24fps and its multiples (48fps, 120fps, etc.) become standard on any future cameras. Also, I would like more cameras to start featuring less common resolutions (such as 1440p) if their sensors and processors can handle their highest framerates and codecs at a resolution higher than 1080p.

Though I am certainly anticipating some new hardware revisions, I hope that there will be some new firmware for existing products.