Behold, The Nokia 9 Pureview - True Innovation

[DBounce]

Today Nokia unveiled its new Nokia 9 Pureview phone. A phone the combines 5 back mounted cameras into 1 to produce realtime HDR images. Nokia worked with Light to produce the new camera technology.

 

[JurijTurnsek]

Behold, no OIS and only one sensor used in video recording. Hopefully, when they do a SnapDragon 855 refresher, they enable some of this goodness in video too.

[DBounce]

41 minutes ago, JurijTurnsek said:

Behold, no OIS and only one sensor used in video recording. Hopefully, when they do a SnapDragon 855 refresher, they enable some of this goodness in video too.

OIS is not the way forward. EIS as seen in the new GoPro and Samsung S10 devices is the future. 

[ntblowz]

35 minutes ago, DBounce said:

OIS is not the way forward. EIS as seen in the new GoPro and Samsung S10 devices is the future. 

Yeah that why Canon use EIS instead of 5 axis IBIS on their camera, they must have seen the trend!

[sanveer]

2 hours ago, JurijTurnsek said:

Behold, no OIS and only one sensor used in video recording. Hopefully, when they do a SnapDragon 855 refresher, they enable some of this goodness in video too.

"... The Nokia 9 PureView just offers a single focal length.

In my tests, it took around 10 seconds or so to process a picture once it was shot, and then another few seconds to fully load the finished result in full resolution in the photos app. Now, Nokia says that those features will be off by default, and that regular JPEGs should shoot faster. But if you’re someone who’s buying the Nokia 9 PureView, odds are you’re probably interested in taking full advantage of all those cameras."

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/2/24/18234962/nokia-9-pureview-cameras-5-features-specs-multiple-price-release-date-photos-hands-on-mwc-2019

Which which means nothing even remotely quick in terms of Photography. Only something that has to be shoot very slow. No fast moving objects and no sports or reasonably fast moving wildlife Photography. 

Not having an OIS is a big deal. It could have easily improved low light photo quality, even handheld ones. But I am guessing they couldn't find a way to do sensor fusion with 5 sensors and OIS. Unless they implemented a single OIS panel for all 5 sensors (though it would be a battery guzzler and quite large). 

I saw the sample photos from the Nokia 9 and they are superb, especially considering that they are from a Smartphone.

I can imagine a 9-Camera version of this, with 3 focal lengths (each with a coloured, b&w and ToF/Depth sensor). And with much faster processing (DRAM sensors, 12Gb RAM and lot more ISP?). That could be the next generation of this. 

I am looking forward to DXO labs testing this. The depth of field seems to be the best part, apart from native RAW dynamic range (rated at 12.4 stops). 

[DBounce]

@sanveer it also has post re-focus ability. This is pretty amazing in a package this small. And while it is true that the image processing does take some time, from the review I have seen it does not slow down image capture as the processing is done in the background.

[sanveer]

32 minutes ago, DBounce said:

@sanveer it also has post re-focus ability. This is pretty amazing in a package this small. And while it is true that the image processing does take some time, from the review I have seen it does not slow down image capture as the processing is done in the background.

That post focus ability is amazing, especially considering that it has 1200 planes of depth (or whatever the term for it is).

I think you may be referring to the JPEG capture. I remember hearing or reading somewhere that the JPEG one is much faster.  It would be interesting though, if like you suggest, the RAW writing is happening in the background where the phone is ready to take the next shot.  

[JurijTurnsek]

3 hours ago, DBounce said:

OIS is not the way forward. EIS as seen in the new GoPro and Samsung S10 devices is the future. 

EIS is nice for video if you have more than 12mpx to work with. But for photos, nothing beast OIS, not even computational arrays.

If Sony was able to do fucking magic with XZ3 Premium RGB+BW array, a pair of modules should be enough for any focal length. Add the very fast HDR+ from Pixels and you can process those module pairs in real time video too.

I am disappointed that HMD (Nokia) still stubbornly uses smaller sensors to avoid a hump (like LG does), which puts them behind the competition from the start.

[kye]

7 hours ago, DBounce said:

OIS is not the way forward. EIS as seen in the new GoPro and Samsung S10 devices is the future. 

You're probably right, and it stabilises movement between frames but it doesn't stabilise movement during the frame, so if you're in low light and bump the camera the stabilised shot you get out of it looks like you had a very steady hand but at the moment of the bump everything in the frame will turn to a mush of motion-blur like all of a sudden the universe had a tiny little seizure.

It works for action cameras filming at very short shutter speeds but doesn't really work for anything other than wide-angles in sunlight.  As soon as the sun sets or you decide you want to use that 50mm or 80mm lens (with its tiny aperture, tiny sensor, and poor ISO performance all pushing to slow the shutter speed) then it's universe-seizures the whole way.

[sanveer]

I read the whole specs sheet and various reviews a few times and came to the following conclusions (please feel to correct me if I am wrong):

1. OIS helps push another few stops of stabilization that helps way more in correcting hand shake than anything else.

2. All phones with OIS have some serious issues with HDR which they circumvent by doing something similar to correcting PDAF gaps and noise as well as blurring detail. 

3. One can create superb HDR by image stacking, but one has lesser time in the case of phone without OIS, and plus they have far greater limitations on variable shutter speeds for stacking (they can't go too slow). 

4. While the image from the Nokia 9 looks superb for a smartphone, I suspect that it may have lesser dynamic range that a Pixel 3. The Nokia 9 may have more dynamic range in RAW especially if the image fusion creates a RAW photo. The Pixel 3 may have much lesser actual detail and a lot more digital sharpening though. I also think the 2.9 times more light, that the Nokia 9 presentation was mentioning, may be a little exaggerated.

The night photos were actually blowing out the highlights a little. I suspect it may have to do with faster shutter speeds due to the lack of OIS.

I am wondering whether there were any limitations of the Snapdragon 845 and also what the image sensors that are used in the Nokia 9.

Curiously Nokia claims that it's only making a limited number of these and will not produce more than the ones it has altered predetermined tor the production run (maybe it gets better with the Snapdragon 855).

I am looking for 9 camera smartphones with 3 different focal lengths, 3 b&w sensors and 3 DoF sensors.

@DBounce the Nokia 9 is actually path-breaking in many ways. 

[DBounce]

2 hours ago, sanveer said:

1. OIS helps push another few stops of stabilization that helps way more in correcting hand shake than anything else.

I think OIS is more about micro jitters from hand movement also. EIS is better if what you are looking for is a replacement for a gimbal. The Samsung Super Steady Shot as seen on the new S10 phones is a good example of just how effective EIS can be for video. Granted, in its current implementation the phone is limited to HD footage. But nevertheless, the concept shows huge promise. A system such as this combined with a camera array and ample processing power will likely negate the need for gimbals and point and shoot cameras in the not too distant future.

[Emanuel]

5 hours ago, sanveer said:

I read the whole specs sheet and various reviews a few times and came to the following conclusions (please feel to correct me if I am wrong):

1. OIS helps push another few stops of stabilization that helps way more in correcting hand shake than anything else.

2. All phones with OIS have some serious issues with HDR which they circumvent by doing something similar to correcting PDAF gaps and noise as well as blurring detail. 

3. One can create superb HDR by image stacking, but one has lesser time in the case of phone without OIS, and plus they have far greater limitations on variable shutter speeds for stacking (they can't go too slow). 

4. While the image from the Nokia 9 looks superb for a smartphone, I suspect that it may have lesser dynamic range that a Pixel 3. The Nokia 9 may have more dynamic range in RAW especially if the image fusion creates a RAW photo. The Pixel 3 may have much lesser actual detail and a lot more digital sharpening though. I also think the 2.9 times more light, that the Nokia 9 presentation was mentioning, may be a little exaggerated.

The night photos were actually blowing out the highlights a little. I suspect it may have to do with faster shutter speeds due to the lack of OIS.

I am wondering whether there were any limitations of the Snapdragon 845 and also what the image sensors that are used in the Nokia 9.

(...)

oh well, where have you been getting this idea?

https://www.technobuffalo.com/nokia-9-camera-review/#&gid=1&pid=1

 

PS: OK, I got it, probably from here:

https://www.androidauthority.com/nokia-9-pureview-release-date-price-deals-958364/

Speaking of outdated devices then, take a look of this comparative of two devices separated with 5 years in-between:

https://www.androidauthority.com/huawei-p20-pro-vs-lumia-1020-857050/

The proof is in the pudding.

[sanveer]

8 hours ago, Emanuel said:

oh well, where have you been getting this idea?

I am unable to understand what you're attempting to articulate. You posted some random URLs to videos and sites.

If you aren't familiar or comfortable with English, post in whatever language helps. I will try and get a Google translate translation done. 

[Snowfun]

This and the new Sony Xperia 1 show just how dated the RED Hydrogen was always doomed to become... despite having a body designed to outlast the average volcano.

[Emanuel]

8 hours ago, sanveer said:

I am unable to understand what you're attempting to articulate. You posted some random URLs to videos and sites.

If you aren't familiar or comfortable with English, post in whatever language helps. I will try and get a Google translate translation done. 

LOL Nothing about my English, dude ; ) Funny the fact last time I checked your native English (from India, correct?) was the most accurate setting for native Portuguese speakers using English translator tools over Android (very effective along such route BTW) 

: D

On your argument, I just got where you probably picked up that idea:

https://www.androidauthority.com/nokia-9-pureview-release-date-price-deals-958364/

"The Nokia 9 PureView is technically a limited-edition device. HMD said it would manufacture a set number of units and would not continue fabrication once stock runs out. This is a pretty odd stance for what’s essentially HMD’s most-hyped phone to date. We suspect it has something to do with the fact that HMD was stuck with building the phone around the Snapdragon 845, instead of the 2019 gold standard, the Snapdragon 855."

Ideas spread nowadays -- internet days, are like Black Death.

Not only here, not only from your comment, people tend to believe incremental updates as game changers. When things happen upside down, not depending on our wish, perspective or our world, so many times to accept it as fact. This Nokia 9 is revolutionary indeed. The step from Snapdragon 845 to 855, not so much or not at all to say it literally, very likely.

The latter link stands my point.

From the leftover, you can find DR is far to be inferior to the Pixel 3 (BTW, your current phone? ; )

From your post: "The night photos were actually blowing out the highlights a little."

Really? Id appreciate to see those samples I was simply unable to find out there. Because everything I've seen points out exactly on the opposite direction.

[sanveer]

4 hours ago, Emanuel said:

LOL Nothing about my English, dude ; ) Funny the fact last time I checked your native English (from India, correct?) was the most accurate setting for native Portuguese speakers using English translator tools over Android (very effective along such route BTW) 

I am still unable to understand you perfectly. Just for the record, I am mixed race, and Indians are probably more fluent in English than most countries whose native language is English. And there is a likelihood that Hindi (India's most common or spoken language), may be as commonly spoken as English. Or just a tad more. 

 

4 hours ago, Emanuel said:

On your argument, I just got where you probably picked up that idea:

It was not an Idea, if I said they are making phone in limited numbers, I couldnt have imagined it. It could also not be clairvoyance. So obviously it's a fact and I read from a few reliable sources, and arrived that that statement. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Emanuel said:

From the leftover, you can find DR is far to be inferior to the Pixel 3 (BTW, your current phone? ; )

Actually the Pixel 3 may have like 13-14 stops but in JPEG format with lots of noise reduction and detail smudging. And no, I do not use a Pixel 3. I find the Google phone to be very intrusive, in the most curious ways. It's like its constantly recording everything one does.

 

4 hours ago, Emanuel said:

From your post: "The night photos were actually blowing out the highlights a little."

Really? Id appreciate to see those samples I was simply unable to find out there. Because everything I've seen points out exactly on the opposite direction.

I saw a few photos where the highlights in night photos (or photos where the light was anything but ideal) were blown up. Actually I am guessing it may also have to do with something else (heavy handed editing or converting from RAW to JPEGs?). 

 

https://m.gsmarena.com/showpic2.php3?sImg=news/19/02/nokia-9-camera-samples/official/gsmarena_017.jpg&idNews=35690

 

https://m.gsmarena.com/showpic2.php3?sImg=news/19/02/nokia-9-camera-samples/official/gsmarena_002.jpg&idNews=35690#

 

This has tiny light sources in the phone (because they are at a distance), but if you zoom in, you can clearly see that it is blowing out the light sources (highlights). 

https://m.gsmarena.com/showpic2.php3?sImg=news/19/02/nokia-9-camera-samples/official/gsmarena_015.jpg&idNews=35690#

 

I am also wondering whether they can push the minimum ISO to ISO64 or 60 or 50, to get just a little more headroom. You could probably do reasearch and find out someone else who shares this viewpoint. And claim that my thought is not original. 

 

4 hours ago, Emanuel said:

This Nokia 9 is revolutionary indeed. 

I completely agree. The Nokia 9 is a very drastic step from incremental changes or improvements in smartphone photography. The photos looked ALIVE. Even more than those from Leica Lenses. They have have such an amazing 3D effect about them. Like this photo for instance:

https://m.gsmarena.com/showpic2.php3?sImg=news/19/02/nokia-9-camera-samples/official/gsmarena_010.jpg&idNews=35690

[Emanuel]

Only a form to say it : ) Thanks for your input.

As Pureview user -- I still hold my 808 as my main phone replaced by a 2nd unit nowadays especially for casual shooting, incredible how its high resolution mode and large sensor size (for a smartphone camera BTW) have been rather useful to me under the most diverse circumstances, I am ordering this successor when exactly tomorrow Feb 27 it is celebrated seven years this device was unveiled.

I am a happy camper with all samples I've seen. I always discount the fact we don't have access to the original files. It is a bit like to evaluate videos from YT : D

 

I am very enthusiastic with the idea. Can't wait to receive mine! : -)

[Emanuel]

Unexpected, maybe yes maybe not, would seem elucidative in any way whatsoever this comparative into PureView realm here:

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/item/23435_Imaging_showdown_Nokia_808_Sym.php

However, the 2019 version is far from its RAW best, pretty worthy to mention as well.

Last but not least... "This isn't the PureView branded phone you're looking for." What to say more?

 

[Emanuel]

 

[Emanuel]