New low budget "pro" wireless: Deity Connect

[Kisaha]

1 hour ago, zerocool22 said:

Guys, what are your thoughts about the wlav pro and the wlav lavalier? https://www.deitymic.com/wlavpro/ 
(also in combination with their wireless) or Do you think Sennheiser/sony/rode is still better. 

Too new. They targeted specifically 3 categories.

Cheap one for ENG (visible, kind of rugged) - which Sony/Sennheiser/Rode/Audio Technica/e.t.c have similar options that start from cheaper and go to higher.

Middle ones - good for everything, DPA 4060 and Sanken COS11 are the king here, the difference is price is around 20%. I would pay the 20% premium.

Tiny ones: B6 and I am ordering the DPA 6060 as a top option. The difference against the 6060 in price is big here, but 6060 takes the best characteristics of everything (rugged design and cable, water repellentless, top -as in, best ever!- sound quality and a tiny tiny design). All in all, it seems like the best ever made, so you pay a premium for that too. Also it is out in the market just very recently, so another 5% premium!

OscarSound Tech have a mic in the latter 2 categories for less that what the Deity cost for years, they just do not have any marketing whatsoever!

Audio Technica has some interesting designs also. I am surprised how people forget about this Japanese company that produces amazing value for money products in every category, and some unique designs.

Foot note: Sanken has also a very very small capsule, smaller than the European Industry standard DPA 4060, but not as tiny as the tiny ones. Also it comes with a package having a lot of extras.

[IronFilm]

On 4/15/2019 at 1:24 AM, Ty Harper said:

@Kisaha, appreciate the perspective. For someone like myself, whose got 2 pairs of Senny G3's (all bought used over the years for under $300 a pair), but has been considering purchasing another pair for backup/3 person interviews... is there any reason to start diversifying ---- maybe pickup a pair from a newer device/different company?

Depending on where you live, and where you travel to, you might find it worthwhile considering buying a good 2.4GHz wireless system (which is hopefully what this new Deity product will be) as a way of being diversified from being only with your UHF products. 

20 hours ago, Kisaha said:

OscarSound Tech

I agree if you're on a budget and want to buy today a cheap but good lav than OST is the way to go. 

 

On 4/15/2019 at 4:08 AM, Kisaha said:

Rodelink can be found for dead cheap also and can be a good solution (same Deity technology) if do not mind the size (they are huge!).

I would very very strongly disagree with the statement that RodeLink is the "same technology". No, they're just merely on the same frequency. It is like saying a Sennheiser G1 and a Lectrosonics LT is "the same technology" just because they're perhaps using the same frequency. Nope, there is a lot lot lot more going on in the background. And that is before we even begin to touch on the extra feature benefits Deity has over a RodeLink. 

 

[Kisaha]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I would very very strongly disagree with the statement that RodeLink is the "same technology". No, they're just merely on the same frequency. It is like saying a Sennheiser G1 and a Lectrosonics LT is "the same technology" just because they're perhaps using the same frequency. Nope, there is a lot lot lot more going on in the background. And that is before we even begin to touch on the extra feature benefits Deity has over a RodeLink. 

 

Lectrosonics LT are digital hybrids so NOT at all comparable with the G series.

Rodelink amd Deity are full digital working in 2.4GhZ, same principles, which are NOT comparable to G series/Lectrosonics/Sony UWP.

The Rodelink is to the Deity what a Sony UWP is to the more advanced hybrid systems (analog/digital). You are getting there, just loosing the higher end characteristic.

The same principles of full digital GhZ devices applies to Rode Go, the new small Sennheiser and the AVX series.

The Rode Go and Sennheiser are consuner. AVX is prosumer or pro (not for sound professionals though because of their "auto" function and consumer characteristics).

After all said and done, the Rodelink will be a dead cheap solution that would be found used for silly money. Maybe double digit.

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Lectrosonics LT are digital hybrids so NOT at all comparable with the G series.

False. At least it certainly it is false in the sense you just called Deity and RodeLink the "same technology", if so, then heck so is a LT and a G1! Which is the point I'm making, it is a bit silly to call Deity and RodeLink exactly the same technology, as it is like claiming Senny G1 / Lectro LT are using the same tech too. 

Well I guess technically they are! Because they're both UHF, and RodeLinks and Deity use the same 2.4GHz. 

But I'm sure we'd all agree that it is silly to say a Sennheiser G1 and Lectrosonics LT is the "same technology" when the reality is it is so so so much more than just what frequency they're on, and this would be a gross simplification which is very misleading. 

Which is why I felt I must highlight this is a very inaccurate way to describe the situation with RodeLinks/Deity. 

 

Edit: if anything, it could be argued a Lectrosonics LT/LR (or whatever other latest Lectrosonics you might like to refer to) is actually MORE similar to a Sennheiser G series than Deity/RodeLink are similar to each other. As you can't ever mix and match Deity/RodeLinks to work with each other, but you certainly can use those Lectrosonics with Sennheiser G series receivers/transmitters! (not that I'd recommend it in most circumstances.... but you "could", and it does sometimes come in handy)

3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

After all said and done, the Rodelink will be a dead cheap solution that would be found used for silly money. Maybe double digit.

Even secondhand, when you search completed auctions on eBay the cheapest completed auctions you can find are around a couple of hundred bucks. A long way to go until you hit "double digits" :-/  At that price point I reckon you are just far too close in price to a secondhand Sony UWP-D11 / Sennheiser G3

[Kisaha]

14 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Well I guess technically they are! Because they're both UHF, and RodeLinks and Deity use the same 2.4GHz. 

At that price point I reckon you are just far too close in price to a secondhand Sony UWP-D11 / Sennheiser G3

- Technically they are, and of course they are, and that's the case.

The limitations and advantages of each concept are very closely related to the direction each company took when they were designed each one of those and tbey were driven by cost, mainly.

The full digital Ghz crowd is based in the same principles and I wouldn't be surprised if they even use same components. In this time, a full digital Ghz design is the simplest and cheapest way to make a full digital wireless system because there are unlimited such components that are used in literally unlimited product codes.

For the history and a more actual representation of the market, I add another one in this category that people use for some time now and they work very good.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1060929-REG/audio_technica_atw_1701_l_system_10_digtal_wireless.html

- As of the Rode; The Filmmaker Kit costs around 280€ (there is a place selling them 274€ but I do not know them), I said "after all said and done" and not everything is said yet, give it a summer or two, and we will see. 

Even now, with the Go not sold yet in our territory, the Deity not selling yet in our territory, the XS just arrived (299€ the interview kit), the AVX still selling for 700€, the Audio Technica is just 370€ and the Rodelink 280€, and the Deity will be around 599-699€ (not official pricing yet) but with 2 Tx.

Do you see the pattern in pricing here? 2.4Ghz are cheap..at least cheaper than other technologies.

- I add a comment for another forum here, to remind the people that they have to do their own research and not follow blindly what other people (that they do not really know!) say.

These are real sound professionals by the way.

"Mattias Larsen    #149

Posted 3 hours ago

  6 hours ago, Eric Thomas Rice said:

Myself and a buddy checked them out at NAB. He clipped on the mic, I manned the bag. He walked honestly about 7 feet before multiple dropouts. I understand its NAB and there's RF everywhere BUT that's supposed to be the point of 2.4ghz auto-switching, correct? Bag was upright, TX was upright both in front and behind the wear-er. We switched and he had the same thing.

Thanks for sharing, that is too bad. It seems as Michael Wynne had a similar experience in a post that is now deleted. To be honest a G3 system might also fall short in 7 feets at Nab. But it is worrying with the 2.4 band with everything that is already crammed there on a shoot and hearing these testamonials makes me confident in staying G3/2000 a bit longer. "

[IronFilm]

35 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

- Technically they are, and of course they are, and that's the case.

Do you accept though it is misleading to call RodeLink/Deity as using exactly the same technology?

In the same way it is misleading to say a Sennheiser G1 and a Lectrosonics LT/LR are "the same technology", technically true, but definitely something which should be highlighted as potentially misleading. 

As there are many differences in features and in the manner of how they work, beyond simply sharing the same frequency. 

That has been my core point from the beginning of this tangent we've gone on in this thread. 

[Kisaha]

Just now, IronFilm said:

Do you accept though it is misleading to call RodeLink/Deity as using exactly the same technology?

In the same way it is misleading to say a Sennheiser G1 and a Lectrosonics LT/LR are "the same technology", technically true, but definitely something which should be highlighted as potentially misleading. 

As there are many differences in features and in the manner of how they work, beyond simply sharing the same frequency. 

 

Of course it is not misleading, the technology behind them is the same. I fail to understand why you do not comprehend it!

Whoever wants to choose a 2.4Ghz system can choose from the consumer Rode Wireless Go - Sennheiser XS, then goes to prosumer/pro Sennheiser AVX and the more pro featured, but still much cheaper than - even analog, but especially hybrid systems - Rodelink, Audio Technica ATW and soon from the Deity Wireless. 

A 2.4Ghz system is a 2.4Ghz system. A full analog system is a full analog system, and a hybrid system brings together the best of both worlds. As simple as that.

I explained the tech behind the Sennheiser and the Lectrosonics and is much different, calling them the same is misleading. UWP is closer to the Lectros tech, and that is why we bought them, in tech principle, the UWP are the Poor Man's Lectros.

[IronFilm]

8 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Of course it is not misleading, the technology behind them is the same. I fail to understand why you do not comprehend it!

Well ok then, guess we can agree to disagree, I just thing it is mind boggling to think it is not misleading to say Deity/Rodelink are "the same",  yet you also think it is misleading to say Sennheiser G3 / Lectrosonics LT/LR are "the same technology". 

In my view either both are "misleading", or neither of them are. 

 

9 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

A 2.4Ghz system is a 2.4Ghz system.

2.4GHz just means the frequency they're using. 

Just like UHF merely refers to the frequency band used. 

But there are a million different ways in the details as to how they could be implementing their usage of that frequency. 

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

These are real sound professionals by the way.

Sure, but also Eric is not a regular I've ever seen posting on jwsoundgroup before. Who knows what he is really trying to say here??

I reckon Andrew Jones answered his post well:

 

 

24 minutes ago, Andrew Jones said:

Hey Eric, I'm not sure who you mean by "he clipped on the mic", we had 6 people working at the booth so I am not sure who gave you the demo. But I know when I gave the demo to people like Glen Trew, Chris Howland, Jeff Wexler, Jose Frias, Jared Elkin, Carlos Meada, and Eric Leek we got a minimum of 25ft and in some test, we got as much as 40ft on the expo floor.  And I encourage you or anyone else on this page to ask any of these sound mixers how their results were when they watched the demo. Glen Trew was playing with our shark fin antenna the whole test and checking out to see how directional it was and how good it was at rejecting the other 4 audio brands that also had 2.4Ghz Omni systems at their booths 10ft away across the aisle.  Jared Elkin did all of his coverage for the whole show floor and only had interference at our booth because we already had a lot of transmitters on (well above common practice.)

 

What you may have experienced was also due to the fact that the test units were open to the public to play with and change the settings. I often found that members of the public had gone and unscrewed the shark fin so the center pin on the SMA connector wasn't making contact. Also, I would find that the system was set to 10mw instead of 100mw. Given both of those setting changes, it is very possible you were getting 7ft off the internal B-ANTs at 10mw. It's also possible that during your test there were more than 4x TX units on because we were showing off 3-4 dual kits at one time at points. Also if the TX you were being shown in your demo has the same User ID as another one in the area that would also affect range as the User ID's all default back to the same name (12345) and this also acts as the encryption key. Without knowing any these variables it's hard to say that what might have given you these results. That said, I know you're in NYC, stop by Gotham Sound and ask for a demo at their shop. When I did the demo with Nick and Peter I was able to walk around the whole place short of putting 2 full metal repair shelves of gear between the TX and the RX. Honestly, stop by Gotham anyway, they are great people there and there's always something new I find on the shelves that I need to buy.

 

So yeah, we can see that potentially there are lot of things that Eric might have got wrong which explains why he got "only 7ft". (assuming this is true, and not just misinformation being spread)

[zerocool22]

On 4/15/2019 at 9:45 AM, IronFilm said:

 

Wat do you think about the Sennheiser XSW-D, is the audio quality not the same as sony uwp-d11? Or is there a major difference in audible quality (the uwp-d11 has the advantage of using it for far longer distances, but thats not something I need, maybe batterypower is also a problem, not sure how long these will hold up)

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Wat do you think about the Sennheiser XSW-D, is the audio quality not the same as sony uwp-d11?

I haven't used the Sennheiser XSW-D, so I can't really comment. Specs say it is USB-Rechargeable 5-Hour Batteries, is 5hrs enough for you? Let's say 4hrs to be safe, is 4hrs safe? What if after three years of solid usage the battery life has dropped by an hour or two? (as rechargeables do have a shorter lifespan as time goes by) For me, even the best case scenario of the quoted specs, would be totally 100% unacceptable. 

B&H says it is still in pre order status, so has anybody used it aside from reviewers with pre-release copies? Probably not. 
 

btw, quick comparison though of some specs of the XSW-D vs Deity:

Sennheiser XSW: 8mw dual PCB fractal antenna

Deity Connect: 100mw Dual PCB factual & Dual SMA dipole whips

That suggests there could be a massive difference in range between though, although like you said, this isn't a concern for you. 

[zerocool22]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I haven't used the Sennheiser XSW-D, so I can't really comment. Specs say it is USB-Rechargeable 5-Hour Batteries, is 5hrs enough for you? Let's say 4hrs to be safe, is 4hrs safe? What if after three years of solid usage the battery life has dropped by an hour or two? (as rechargeables do have a shorter lifespan as time goes by) For me, even the best case scenario of the quoted specs, would be totally 100% unacceptable. 

B&H says it is still in pre order status, so has anybody used it aside from reviewers with pre-release copies? Probably not. 
 

btw, quick comparison though of some specs of the XSW-D vs Deity:

Sennheiser XSW: 8mw dual PCB fractal antenna

Deity Connect: 100mw Dual PCB factual & Dual SMA dipole whips

That suggests there could be a massive difference in range between though, although like you said, this isn't a concern for you. 

Yeah I was thinking, as they are USB chargable, I could hook it up with small USB powerbanks. So that issue could be resolved this way. Yeah if the deity was the same amount of money, I would go for the Deity. Allthough it is 2X as expensive without a lavalier(so I could get a deity smic 2 with the money I save). As I will probably only will use this thing a couple of times a year. 

[IronFilm]

36 minutes ago, zerocool22 said:

I could hook it up with small USB powerbanks.

Would be a pain in the ass to do this while on talent! And the risks of the USB connection being damaged are SKY HIGH!!!

 

[zerocool22]

3 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Would be a pain in the ass to do this while on talent! And the risks of the USB connection being damaged are SKY HIGH!!!

 

How long do the batteries run on a uwp-d11?

[IronFilm]

They're all day long for me. If it is a loooooong production day then I will at lunch of midway through the second half swap out the batteries to be safe. Better safe than sorry

[zerocool22]

Hmm I still can't decide. Seems like the Rode wireless go is a bit better then the sony xsd-w. I like that its so compact, USB rechargable, runs up to 7 hours, so def long enough for 99,9% of anything that I would ever do. I have seen a video where the guy walks away from the transmitter and at 30m or something he turns around and shows his back to the camera and the signal was cut off because there was no line of sight and his own body probably blocked the signal. I presume this also happens to the sony xsd-w but not the sennheiser g3 or uwp-d11 or am I wrong? And should this also happen to the G3 or uwp-d11?

[IronFilm]

16 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

I have seen a video where the guy walks away from the transmitter and at 30m or something he turns around and shows his back to the camera and the signal was cut off because there was no line of sight and his own body probably blocked the signal.

2.4GHz I think does get its signal eaten up more by bodies of water (humans) than UHF

[Kisaha]

18 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Hmm I still can't decide. Seems like the Rode wireless go is a bit better then the sony xsd-w. I like that its so compact, USB rechargable, runs up to 7 hours, so def long enough for 99,9% of anything that I would ever do. I have seen a video where the guy walks away from the transmitter and at 30m or something he turns around and shows his back to the camera and the signal was cut off because there was no line of sight and his own body probably blocked the signal. I presume this also happens to the sony xsd-w but not the sennheiser g3 or uwp-d11 or am I wrong? And should this also happen to the G3 or uwp-d11?

I do not know the specifics, but in Sound 101, I remember we were saying the higher the frequency, the easier is to physical cut it off.

An extreme example. If you hear a boom box in the streets of Brooklyn, the first part of the sound you hear is the bass. Lower frequency. If you never be close to the device, you can go from bass, to a muffled sound (more mid range frequencies) but never the highs.

Same with approaching cars. First you hear the bass and only if the window is open (it usually is!) and the car is passing right next to you, you can hear the highs.

Also, with your surround system at home. You put the woofer wherever, but your mids and twitters have to be on a specific way to be effective.

The differemce between UHF ( in Mhz) and 2.4Ghz is enormous. The same person that IronFilm quoted before said something like "you need twice the power for a digital system", something along these lines. 

This applies to my table. All the 2.4 Ghz devices have similar characteristics. The main difference is that Deity can go up to 100mW, while the consuner ones have a lot less power.

100mW is a little too much if someone was wearing wireless for too many hours per day. I wouldn't like to have it on me for too many hours.

I wouldn't worry too much if I was you though. How far would you go? Are you a pro? Maybe hire a sound man and let him/her have the equipment and the weight of the sound decisions.

[webrunner5]

Speaking of Bass I have Always been amazed by this stat since I learned it at age 30 when I was playing Bass guitar..

A 20 Hz wavelength is about 60 feet long, or 720 inches. A 40 Hz one is 28 foot long. If you are in a 14 foot room you will never hear the 40 Hz. It will cancel it's self out.

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, Kisaha said:

100mW is a little too much if someone was wearing wireless for too many hours per day. I wouldn't like to have it on me for too many hours.

 Is it "too much"?

Lots of Lectrosonics wireless can be set to 100mW and used all day long, I even own several transmitters which operate at 250mW