David Lynch "may never make another film" due to the profit business.

[Axel]

1. A good film may appeal to the masses, it's doesn't HAVE to be a contradiction. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what we witness right now is absolute dullness as a result of EXCLUSIVELY trying to repeat former successes.
2. This justifies the equation 'a mainstream film is a bad film'. Exceptions only prove the general rule.
3. Spielberg, who now complaints in a chorus with Soderberg and Lynch, contributed to the misery. He is a master of the big budget movie as well as of the serials, franchises and remakes. And he is responsible for quite a bunch of terribly stupid movies.
4. So maybe Lynch has lost it. I don't know, but I accept that creative people can burn out too. Their work survives. If not for the masses, then the more for few. Rock'nRoll (cinema) is bigger than all of us ...

[Anil Rao]

Interestingly, Lynch was first choice to direct Return of the Jedi, but passed to do Dune instead. I'd love to see that version of Jedi and often think about it when the Sarlacc Pit scenes are on :)

 

As for the comment about whether Nolan enjoys making Batman movies, the answer is in the work, of course he does, that's why they are highly regarded. Like Kubrick before him, he is in a unique position of being able to craft what he wants, and he's earned it by the way he applies himself to his craft, it's like that of an auteur.

 

Spielberg is no such thing, he was always the guy you hired, and not much else. Look what Warner's did recently to get a bite out of Nolan's upcoming Interstellar with Paramount, which ironically was a Spielberg project to start with, they traded up the rights to the Friday the 13th series, so they could get a piece of the action!

 

Nolan is the modern day equivalent of what all filmamkers used to be, in a classical perspective, it was then about pushing possibilities, today very few are allowed to do that, as the meticulous planning studios give to marketing the snare of their ROI on three day estimates, that's what has killed the game or leading to the so called implosion... simple greed, what else is new?

 

The current chase for Global dollars aginst domestic is also driving what they want to make. i had an interesting meet with a US film company who told me they would be interested as long as the story would play better to an international audience rather than a US one, 80% of ROI is now making up the figures for US product, don't get me wrong, home grown isn't entirely written off, everyone will always be happy when a film works as WWZ has thus proven last weekend, it was almost written off within the industry with all it's so called miscomings being publically aired, but it blew away all domestic expectations when it took over $60m, but what is does internationally is where the money is being bet on.

 

Iron Man 3 even got it's own edit for China with new scenes even filmed for that market, so the trend really is to make your story work everywhere to get the Lion's share. I doubt a Lynch film has that power, it's great for the niche, just not for the masses and that's business I'm afraid.

[HurtinMinorKey]

The new NIN video from Lynch.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=1RN6pT3zL44

 

 

Pretty damn ugly, and repetitive.

[bplet]

Hmm.  I wonder why he didn't shake the camera more.  Needs more cowbell

 

If I had to pick a list of my top 10 favorite movies of all time, at least five of them would be Lynch films.  Had a long conversation with Sean Young about Dune when I worked with her on a low budget b-flick several years ago.  That said, he's an acquired taste.  Is it really a shock to hear, in a time when people like Lucas and Spielberg are moaning about difficulties in funding, that Lynch would be singing the same tune? Don't cry David, I'll send you a love letter.  Straight from my heart, #$%#&!

 

This brave new world feels so foreign to filmmakers, but the theatre scene has been feeling it for decades now.  Times change, audiences change, things evolve.  Welcome to Earth

[Axel]

Had a long conversation with Sean Young about Dune when I worked with her on a low budget b-flick several years ago.

 

I didn't like Dune very much when I first saw it in the cinema, but I guess I was too young then. I also didn't like Coppola's Dracula then, but now I must admit both films get miraculously better every time I see them.

 

BTW: Do you know this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjvuCOlkO4E

 

or the Goofy version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7baCckh-XE

 

It's fun to think about other directors. Years ago I read in a german book on Kubrick that one should imagine A Clockwork Orange as written and directed by Steven Spielberg, starring Tom Cruise. And only today I found a satire with that connection, here.

 

The article mentions A.I., and I found it a great movie (though probably not too Kubrickian). In the end, when the Blue Fairy actually appears, I found it so much over the top, I was reminded of David Lynch. It was an effect like this:

 

But of course, Lynch had his own fairy:

 

 

[Chrad]

Very good comparison!

[JohnBarlow]

I watched Dune again last night, Ive forgotten the number of times Ive seen it.

 

But for the first time I noticed Lynchie was in the movie, a spice worker rescued by that helicopter thing when there was worm sign.

 

He didnt have the Eraserhead hairdo then though :)

[Julian]

The new NIN video from Lynch.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=1RN6pT3zL44

 

 

Pretty damn ugly, and repetitive.

 

Apparently he shot it (partly) with a Hasselblad Lunar... Shooting with that ugly overpriced silly camera probably influences the creative process somehow...

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/i-finally-found-someone-shooting-with-the-hasselblad-lunar-its-david-lynch/

[Ivar Kristjan Ivarsson]

the new 'Man of Steel' film is designed for / aimed at fans of Transformers and Battleship........nuff said!!

don't forget Zack Snyder made 'Sucker Punch' where they spent all the money on 'girls and guns and explosions'  and forgot to write a script ...

visually it was very entertaining like watching 4 long pop videos .....but no story - sadly Hollywood is like that now .....

 

 

Yeah Suckerpunch was just a wankfest graphics showreel.

I disagree about Sucker Punch not having a screen play. Watch this video from the critic Moviebob, he says it best. : http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/6247-You-Are-Wrong-About-Sucker-Punch-Part-One

 

Shows you how we often jump to conclusions because of outside appearances, some times we just need a another look :)

[Axel]

I can't say anything about Man of Steel, because I didn't see it yet. The other Snyder films are bursting with refined cinematic inventions and consequent story lines. The problem is that nobody reflects on movie plots anymore, which we should, because they are our culture. So the films were mistaken for Michael Bay kind of blockbusters. The latter of course have messages too, rather affirmative messages, cynic in the way that they take our way of life for granted. Now just do that: Take any of Snyders films and tell the story in ten sentences. Say it aloud. How does it sound? Harmless blockbuster entertainment?

[Axel]

Sorry, double post.

[jgharding]

RE: Suckerpunch, an interesting case!

 

The Movie Bob piece was a good watch, but IMHO Movie Bob is doing exactly what the neckbeard audience always does: read too much into their movies, books and games in an attempt to make them cleverer than they are. He may be attempting to stop people ascribing negative "testosterone fueled" intentions to the picture by revealing a plot underneath, but in truth the complexity or otherwise of any plot underneath doesn't matter if the film fails to rise above that which it attempts to parody or subvert.

 

If you followed the theory he's using here, every single dumb over-the-shoulder shooting game actually deserves our respect for its incredibly deep plot, just because it attempts to in some way humanise its characters, and throw in twists to seem smart. *slow clap*. This theory would make Dragonball Z genius, because it's both over complicated and  really violent.

 

In gears of war they chat for a minute or so between huge battles, and use ham-fisted ways to get us to connect witht he "characters": a dead wife, some other family nonsense, but it's still hackneyed tripe. Basically, Bob's line runs that because they gave it some kind of attempt at plot, because they bolted a puzzle-piece story around the action scenes they wanted to show, we are wrong to say it's a wankfest. I say it plays to precisely the same audience, and lacks subversion.

 

The theory seems to be that if you throw a load of clunky, disconnected and overt-thought complex metaphors into a graphics piece it's somehow clever. But it's not, it's still reams and reams of extended, explosive battleporn interspersed with minimal dialogue and a paper-thin storyline, which itself is cobbled together from the least emotive, most aesthetically pleasing parts of of other stories. The purpose of the so called story is to excuse the following action.

 

Setting something in multiple reality layers does not automatically render it clever or successful (see: Inception), it can give a superficial appearance of out-of-the-box writing, especially in a genre of movie where risk aversion is a way of life, but this swiftly becomes unraveled without the character empathy necessary to allow the audience to truly connect.

 

There's no real development of character in Suckerpunch, every single player in it is one-dimensional designed to drive the flaccid story in one direction or another in order to line up the next round of basement-bro bad-guy thwacking.

 

We have zero empathy with the characters, which means it doesn't matter how many levels of reality are there or how much we're 'being laughed at', we don't care. It's not good enough to go "Aaaaaaah, but you didn't get it, it's actually really complex...", so are all stories, especially if you start to project you own beliefs onto them vie in-depth after-viewing analysis.

 

The important thing is that it does not function as a anything more than a beautiful graphics showreel, because the graphics are beautiful, overwhelming and make you go "wow" while the plotline, characters, scripting, pacing, acting and attempts to make a point that may or may not be intentional, are all lacklustre.

 

Finally, the layer of "it's laughing at the audience" plays perfectly to the target audience, who always want to feel cleverer than the rest, like they get something no-one else does. In order to truly subvert you have to rise above. In order to be a Trojan horse it's not enough just to get in the gates, you need to bust out at night and take over! Suckerpunch just ended up in the stables with rest of em...

[eoslover]

I can't say anything about Man of Steel, because I didn't see it yet. The other Snyder films are bursting with refined cinematic inventions and consequent story lines. The problem is that nobody reflects on movie plots anymore, which we should, because they are our culture. So the films were mistaken for Michael Bay kind of blockbusters. The latter of course have messages too, rather affirmative messages, cynic in the way that they take our way of life for granted. Now just do that: Take any of Snyders films and tell the story in ten sentences. Say it aloud. How does it sound? Harmless blockbuster entertainment?

Ironically, both of the directors you just mentioned are also Nolan's favourites.

 

Personally, I like Michael Bay and Zack Snyder films a lot. Still remember the first time I watched the first 7,8 minutes clip of Dawn of the Dead remake 10 years ago before it released in theatre. It was extremely exciting and the makeup was fantastic with a rather low budget. It was one of the best moments I had in theatres because the rest of it did not disappoint me.

 

The same thing actually happened on Michael Bay. I had great time watching both The Rock and Armageddon in theatres. I was also shocked by the first few minutes of Armageddon.I can understand why Nolan said he liked about them that I would rate these opening moments as high as Heat, Jaws, Saving Private Ryan, and Inglorious bastards by QT.

 

There are so many aspects that are also important about filmmaking besides a well written script. Are the scripts of Dawn of the Dead and Armageddon well-written and considered as world class? Absolutely not. However, the cliches, humour and everything worked so well that I had laughs, tensions and emotions in theatres I felt like no problem to have multiple views.

 

I am also heavily influenced by the works of Kurosawa, Hitchcock, Lumet, Bergman, Aronofsky, Scorese, Mann, De Palma, Lynch, Kubrick, Fincher, Coens, Scotts, Park, PT Anderson, Boyle, Darabont, JJ Abrams, Jeff Nichols etc. 

[Axel]

@jgharding

First of all, I respect your view. It's the best kind of discussion, when you are able to follow the other's well-put arguments and still disagree completely. I watched only the first half of the first episode of the Moviebob review just now, because for me it's spoken too fast. General impression is, he makes the same point I made above: People don't 'get' the message.

 

Your answer shows that you did, that you just don't trust Snyder. He is cynic a hundredfold in another way than Bay: He doesn't believe in any values other than the cinematic Wow-effect. He steals from the popular culture what makes his scenes as shrill and contrasty as possible. He stylizes his films to a point where the only rule that reigns is the PLOT, and the plot is always as black, mean, misogynous and misanthropic as possible. He does this obviously with great awareness, his filmic solutions to play with the audience's expectations are smart, I'd say he is indeed very clever.

 

Nolan has a great interest in philosophical problems. His films are all more or less clever experiments (like the experiment in Dark Knight, the two ships with the bomb and the detonators in the hands of the others), but that's the extent of it. He is more interested in making a situation work as a filmic essay than in the situation itself. He doesn't care about his characters, they are just like chessmen.

 

Bay? I really wonder how he can fit in this. Armageddon has no real humor, it only cites the cheapest jokes. If you recall the plot, the message goes, trust your government, trust the military, and there are superheros among us, whose mark is their patriotism. The Ministry of Propaganda couldn't have written it straighter. 

 

Compare this to 300: All starts with a fascist society that murders 'degenerated' babies and upholds an abstract idea of honor. They are shown as the spearhead of the occidental way of life. From the orient come the masses of corrupt, frivolous and diplomatic Persians. It's more than a greek myth: It's the story of 'our' culture. A culture that, despite it's differences, is united by the idea of an idea. Something, be it 'blood', 'god', 'democracy' or 'freedom' lets us stand tall when the going get's tough. We will win, we are Sparta. Even if the last of us is killed, even if our madness means extinction (of all). The liberal rest of mankind knows no such life-denying idea(s, meaning, they are exchangeable and too abstract anyway), islamism is nothing else than an allergic reaction.

[mtheory]

Suckerpunch was Snyder's Inception, it failed on an emotional level, it failed even on VFX level ( looked like a video game, just like Man of Steel ) but it did manage to mislead 99% of audiences in critics into an incorrect interpretion of the story. And this is where it is a 100% success in terms of what it was trying to do, that is sucker punch everyone.

 

Almost everyone interprets the film as a story of a girl who is in a madhouse who escapes into a fantasy whorehouse reality, then escapes into a video game reality. That is incorrect. The correct interpretation is that this film is about a girl in a whorehouse who escapes into a madhouse fantasy, then escapes into a video game fantasy.

 

There was never an evil uncle or a dead sister, there was never a lobotomy...the "sister" is the girl who sacrifices herself to let her escape, the evil uncle is the pimp, the "lobotomy" is her losing her virginity to John Ham, who she visualizes as the Doctor who "penetrates" her body. Lobotomy = Loss of virginity, innocence, childhood.

 

The movie basically reveals the artifice of the lobotomy in one key scene when she first arrives at the Whorehouse, you see the other girl performing a theatre play portraying a character GETTING A LOBOTOMY, that's where she got the idea for her Madhouse fantasy. Even more, the opening narration SPELLS IT OUT for you, when it talks about "angels, demons, and an old man who comes to save us when we least expect it"...the old man on the bus who saves her from the cops is REAL and everything else is imagined, she is imagining everything on the bus, having escaped the whorehouse.

 

Is noone paying attention anymore? That was probably Snyder's point. 

[Axel]

Very good summary.

I couldn't recall it exactly, because I saw it only once in a crowded cinema with a deranged audience who really had no hint what it was all about. Other than that, I didn't like it particularly. I just like the Snyder touch in general.

And I like the Lynch touch. One could surely translate the Lynch plots to 'straight stories' and analyze the weird aesthetics. By that you could kill any fascination that make an elite like his films and say it's all pretentious rubbish.

I am proud to belong to a different kind.

Quiz, from which film is this quote: 'Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.'
???

[mtheory]

Compare this to 300: All starts with a fascist society that murders 'degenerated' babies and upholds an abstract idea of honor. They are shown as the spearhead of the occidental way of life. From the orient come the masses of corrupt, frivolous and diplomatic Persians. It's more than a greek myth: It's the story of 'our' culture. A culture that, despite it's differences, is united by the idea of an idea. Something, be it 'blood', 'god', 'democracy' or 'freedom' lets us stand tall when the going get's tough. We will win, we are Sparta. Even if the last of us is killed, even if our madness means extinction (of all). The liberal rest of mankind knows no such life-denying idea(s, meaning, they are exchangeable and too abstract anyway), islamism is nothing else than an allergic reaction.

 

Most of that fascist wanking in '300' came from Frank Miller, a closet fascist, Snyder just added great visuals and slow-mo. Other than that his work generally does not have any ideological themes, only visual ones.

[jgharding]

The latest Superman on the other hand, is packed wall to wall with thinly veiled anti-Chinese, anti Communist, and pro Christian propoganda.

 

One the bad guys (girls) with a "generic evil East European accent" even says "Evolution always wins" before Superman (who is compared to Christ two or three times throughout the film) gives her a kicking. It's packed with allusions to communist art, except unlike when Superman was first knocking around fighting Communism, the enemy is now China not Russia. Zod even has what looks a lot like a sickle on his chest!

 

So the Krypton elite have head-dresses resembling those from traditional Chinese opera, Maoist posters are used for the visual reference when the story of Zod's evil is told, the bad guys talk about "the people" and controlling the number of births and what jobs people have, while the American Superman talks of how a man can become anything he wants to because of "freedom". The US military machine is presented as a benevolent, ultra-reasonable guardian of the known universe.

 

It was 80% funded by product sponsorship, placements and tie ins, with a big chunk chucked in by big-ol baptist churches. I assume that's where the creationist angle and Superman asking for advice from a man of the cloth comes from.

 

As unnervingly beautiful as it looks (Kodak Vision 3, Panavision Primo Anamorphic), it's a combo nasty flag-waving propaganda, adverts and religious messaging. It's US interest and corporate machine propaganda of the highest order, and thus probably exactly what Superman should be.

 

It's insidious anti-art, far from innocent entertainment in my eyes.

 

Michael Shannon is still my favorite actor at the moment though.

 

I first saw Shannon in Shotgun Stories, he was amazing. Take Shelter and Boardwalk Empire he's great too...

[mtheory]

Trust me, we'll be seeing a lot less anti-Chinese themes from Hollywood in the future as International box office now basically became more important than US Domestic, and China is a big chunk of international grosses. They already changed the bad guys from Chinese to Koreans in the recent "Red Dawn".

[jgharding]

Back on David Lynch, I like the lack of fear, the embracing of flaws and faults.... working with the broken and so on. He's not the only one who does it, but it's good inspiration. There's more to film than raw ;)

 

Jello is a uniquely violent form of image distortion, or a flaw that breaks the mood... it all depends on context.

 

Personally I'm now obsessed with low resolution, noise, flicker and motion... so some of his work is a good reference.