Where Is The MFT Cinema Camera? (Or Fuji X)

[Kisaha]

On 5/1/2019 at 8:12 AM, IronFilm said:

Yeah I worked with an EX1 a lot ages ago, and a little with an EX3. 

Now and then I do check out the prices of an EX3 on eBay, and kinda to my surprise they're still fetching a half decent ish price (waaaaay less than new though!). Certainly nowhere near close enough to a "what the hell, spure of the moment indulgence" purchase. 

I was using one of those for almost a decade. My favorite Sony ever. 

The last couple of years I am avoiding it because the image doesn't cut it well anymore and we have the JVC LS300 as our central event camera, but the EX is greatly missed. Haven't found a similar formula with the JVC yet, it does mostly wides, while the EX was a do it all tool.

The lens is amazing, but I remember how expensive, and rare, the media were when the camera was new. We had a 16GB only for almost a year, until Sony brought us new cards!

[webrunner5]

Yeah media cost then were crazy The Panasonic P2 stuff was just as bad.

[Kisaha]

19 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah media cost then were crazy The Panasonic P2 stuff was just as bad.

..and right now (I am at work) we are shooting on a Samsung SSD and a few SD cards (P4K and 2 GH5). It is crazy how cheap you can shoot these days. The EX back then was close to 6-7000$ (can't remember exactly but it was a great deal of money). Also remember the Letus days with the EX3..can't really complain nowdays!

[currensheldon]

I'm curious why Fuji hasn't entered the video camera game. And by video camera, i mean the C100, EVA-1, FS5, etc space. 

With their Super35/APS-C lens lineup, film simulations, cine lenses, and amazing color and image from the X-T3, I think they would do really well. And the X-T3 or X-H1(2) are incredible B-Cams and gimbal cams.

Anyone else have an interest in seeing that? 

If Fuji with the X-Mount or Panasonic with MFT decide to put out a dedicated video camera, either one, I'd go all-in on one of them.

[colepat]

@currensheldon  I would 100% buy/pre-order do whatever to get a Fuji video camera. XLR inputs, internal NDs, timecode out, fat batteries.

[currensheldon]

13 minutes ago, colepat said:

@currensheldon  I would 100% buy/pre-order do whatever to get a Fuji video camera. XLR inputs, internal NDs, timecode out, fat batteries.

Yep. That’s it. It would be great if it were on the smaller side (C100 or FS5 sized), but pretty much just the things you said.

[IronFilm]

On 5/6/2019 at 5:49 AM, currensheldon said:

I'm curious why Fuji hasn't entered the video camera game. And by video camera, i mean the C100, EVA-1, FS5, etc space. 

With their Super35/APS-C lens lineup, film simulations, cine lenses, and amazing color and image from the X-T3, I think they would do really well. And the X-T3 or X-H1(2) are incredible B-Cams and gimbal cams.

Anyone else have an interest in seeing that? 

If Fuji with the X-Mount or Panasonic with MFT decide to put out a dedicated video camera, either one, I'd go all-in on one of them.

My guess as to the "reason why" is Fujifilm is still trying to "get it right" with their mirrorless cameras' video performance (which they're now achieving) before launching into the cinema camera game? To make sure their first release is not a flop, but a success. 

Or at least that is my hope / theory. 

 

[currensheldon]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

My guess as to the "reason why" is Fujifilm is still trying to "get it right" with their mirrorless cameras' video performance (which they're now achieving) before launching into the cinema camera game? To make sure their first release is not a flop, but a success. 

Or at least that is my hope / theory. 

 

Yea that would make a lot of sense. I would say the X-T2 was the first camera that had good video, which was exceeded by the X-H1 and then greatly exceeded by the X-T3, so they're a good 2+ years into making good video cameras and about 16 months into making GREAT video cameras (or at least as good as any other mirrorless manufacturer since the X-T3). 

I really do feel there is a huge market gap in a small video camera in the $4-5k range that has all of the X-T3 specs (10-bit 4K, 60fps, 120-180fps in HD). Just need to make it full 422 10-bit with HDMI raw and maybe one thing the competition doesn't have - like ProRes, internal BM or ProRes Raw or 120fps in 4K or (GASP!) IBIS. Only the URSA Mini Pro G2 has a lot of those specs but I think that is trying to play in a much different market than a Fuji camera should (bigger productions, shoulder-mounted setups, etc). 

Fuji should keep it small (FS5-sized or smaller would be great) to go with their small APS-C lenses and MKX cine lenses and aim for the one-man band, documentary, journalism, small commercial production space.

It's time Fuji. Release the (small) beast!

 

[IronFilm]

19 hours ago, currensheldon said:

Yea that would make a lot of sense. I would say the X-T2 was the first camera that had good video, which was exceeded by the X-H1 and then greatly exceeded by the X-T3, so they're a good 2+ years into making good video cameras and about 16 months into making GREAT video cameras (or at least as good as any other mirrorless manufacturer since the X-T3). 

Yup, and in the grand scheme of things then 16 months is not that long at all. 

And if Fuji was waiting to first get a great reception from a mirrorless camera before beginning development on a cinema camera, then they might have only barely started. 

 

19 hours ago, currensheldon said:

 I really do feel there is a huge market gap in a small video camera in the $4-5k range that has all of the X-T3 specs (10-bit 4K, 60fps, 120-180fps in HD).

UMP is only a grand more than that. 
And the Panasonic EVA1 is "only" a grand and a half more. (there is currently a secondhand EVA1 in my city up for sale for less than US$4K!!)

20 hours ago, currensheldon said:

Fuji should keep it small (FS5-sized or smaller would be great) to go with their small APS-C lenses and MKX cine lenses and aim for the one-man band, documentary, journalism, small commercial production space.

That is what I would hope they target as well. 
Basically a C100 for 2019!
(but with SDI and TC please!)

[currensheldon]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Yup, and in the grand scheme of things then 16 months is not that long at all. 

And if Fuji was waiting to first get a great reception from a mirrorless camera before beginning development on a cinema camera, then they might have only barely started. 

That's true. The X-T2 did well but not because of video and it seems to be common opinion that the X-H1 didn't perform well. But the X-T3 is on fire in the video space, so it may only be 6-months since they have had any real success in video. Though, I love the X-H1 for video and it's really held back by not having the X-T3 video specs. 

The Ursa Mini Pro G2 is very impressive, just not my style of camera. I love the EVA-1, just wish it were a bit smaller and didn't have the EF mount. Canon's Super35 (affordable) glass is pretty terrible and or huge. Using the EVA-1 for now, but would trade it in for a MFT-mount in a heartbeat. 

--

But still hoping for Fuji. We'll see!

 

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, currensheldon said:

and it seems to be common opinion that the X-H1 didn't perform well.

Really??? I thought the gist of the feeling was it was a good performer? Or do you mean that it didn't sell well? At least not to the filmmaking community, not surprising when it was Fuji's first really good attempt at it. 

[currensheldon]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Really??? I thought the gist of the feeling was it was a good performer? Or do you mean that it didn't sell well? At least not to the filmmaking community, not surprising when it was Fuji's first really good attempt at it. 

Oh no, I meant in sales. As a camera, it's my favorite Fuji ever (which is saying something). Great grip, amazing shutter, IBIS second only to Panasonic, and beautiful image. I just don't think it sold that well out of the gate and suffered from the X-T3 being above and beyond in video specs (other than IBIS) and needing the booster grip to even monitor audio (woooops).

Fuji needs to bring the X-H2 with a battery 2x the capacity. But I do love that camera. 

 

 

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, currensheldon said:

I just don't think it sold that well out of the gate and suffered from the X-T3 being above and beyond in video specs (other than IBIS)

yeah the X-H1 suffered due to:

1) being Fuji's 1st good video camera (it takes a lot for people to switch systems, and it helps to see a track record)
2) a very competitive market place (we're spoiled for great options in 2018/2019!)
3) the even "better" X-T3 coming out shortly after

[currensheldon]

Possible a mini MFT cinema camera is coming: https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-panasonic-will-have-a-cine-lumix-announcement-on-may-31/ - or the new GH6? 

I doubt it is an L-Mount announcement, unless it's just for the V-Log update or HDMI raw output, but that seems too small for a major announcement at Cinegear. 

[newfoundmass]

Lumix would seem to indicate M43, no? 

[Video Hummus]

Baby MFT EVA with weather sealing, beefed up GH5S sensor, internal ND, and XLR input.

3 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Lumix would seem to indicate M43, no? 

I would think so. Unless they are broadening the LUMIX brand with this new camera.

They would do well to give us a GH5S firmware update too. It’s basically a cine-focused camera. 

Now that I think of it, the GH5S was either a test run for something like I described above or just a one off market filling niche product. If they release a mini EVA without some love for GH5S I’ll be feeling kinda mad.

[currensheldon]

6 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

Lumix would seem to indicate M43, no? 

There S1 L-Mount line is also Lumix, so it could be that. But I find that hard to believe since those cameras have only been out for 6 weeks. 

Surely we’ll get the V-Log update details, but this is sounding like a new camera. 

[currensheldon]

 

Since it's Lumix, I don't think it will be the EVA/Varicam line (since that's a different branch of Panasonic). The fact that they are calling it "Cine LUMIX" is also very intriguing, because even with the GH5 and GH5s launches, it was always hybrid this and hybrid that (same with S1). They wanted to make sure that photographers knew these cameras were made for them. But I would think the GH5 and GH5s were largely adopted by the filmmaker crowd.

Panasonic should really lean in hard to their reputation as a video company, rather than trying to woo photographers away from Canon, Nikon, Fuji, and Sony. Start putting out cameras that are strictly for video and compete head on with the BMPCC4K, Z Cam, etc and are more useful for video than all of the full frame video cameras out there.

What this means is internal NDs, XLRs, timecode, compact size, 120fps+ in 4K, 10-bit throughout, internal or external raw, etc. - the GH6 should go all out in the video department. 

 

[Kisaha]

I hope this is the one I was waiting for!?

A video (internal NDs) GH5S would be enough for me. The optional sound accessory that exists already is good enough for serious sound. I am using that all the time, is super ok (and not cheap!).

A robust 10bit codec could be better than raw for most jobs.

P4K and Z are eating sales from all the major brands, can not believe all these powerful brands will leave such a promising and upcoming market to the indies. They have to answear somehow.

The 5DmkII and GH crowds have matured and need more video specific equipment, a hybrid will always be a compromise of some kind (usually for video) and the camcorders of yesteryears are old news already (with the exception of LS300, but the form factor wasn't confirming for modern interchangeable lenses use).

I am wondering for so many years now, why Canon didn't evolve the XC series, and even intermix it with the C series and give us a new C100 of the new age? Their product line at the moment indicates that they will never do that, but Fuji and Panasonic can do.

Obviously Panasonic is the more experienced video company between the two, so it is only logical to be the first to give us what we want!

[currensheldon]

23 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

I hope this is the one I was waiting for!?

A video (internal NDs) GH5S would be enough for me. The optional sound accessory that exists already is good enough for serious sound. I am using that all the time, is super ok (and not cheap!).

A robust 10bit codec could be better than raw for most jobs.

P4K and Z are eating sales from all the major brands, can not believe all these powerful brands will leave such a promising and upcoming market to the indies. They have to answear somehow.

 The 5DmkII and GH crowds have matured and need more video specific equipment, a hybrid will always be a compromise of some kind (usually for video) and the camcorders of yesteryears are old news already (with the exception of LS300, but the form factor wasn't confirming for modern interchangeable lenses use).

I am wondering for so many years now, why Canon didn't evolve the XC series, and even intermix it with the C series and give us a new C100 of the new age? Their product line at the moment indicates that they will never do that, but Fuji and Panasonic can do.

Obviously Panasonic is the more experienced video company between the two, so it is only logical to be the first to give us what we want!

AGREED. Hoping this is it. Seems silly for the big names (Panasonic and Canon) to allow the Black Magic Design and Z-Cams of the world to take a really big user base (single operators who grew up on 5Ds and GH4/5s) - people who make a living on their video work but don't have the need or funds for larger cinema cameras. 

Canon could do it with a Super35/APS-C XC-style camera with RF mount (a mini C100). Fuji could do it as well with their lens lineup and XT3 video specs.

But Panasonic makes the most sense.

And I do love the MFT mount for the possibility to go super lightweight with MFT lenses or throw on the 0.64x speedbooster for a FOV greater than Super35mm. As long as they can deliver the same low light ability as the GH5s, they negate a big advantage of larger sensors while being much smaller and more compact (depth of field isn't a huge deal if you snag a f1.2 lens for interviews and the new f1.7 zoom for everything else).