Eos R finally closer to it's actual value

[sanveer]

The A7iii was such a good value proposition at launch, that if it offered 10-bit 4-2-0 internally at launch, it would have completely destroyed almost all other cameras in its segment. I still think that while the S1 has superb video features (usable IBIS while walking, that insane promised VLog, superb low light capabilities etc), because the VLog will cost other $99-199 more, the gap between the S1 and others in its category will increase substantially (I am guessing it may go up to $700). Considering the lack of PDAF, the much larger and heavier body (like 1.4 times the weight and 1.70 times the volume of the A7iii), lesser battery life (especially in comparison with the A7iii), Panasonic should be careful with the pricing of the VLog. Or they should have charged $2200 for the S1 at launch (wonder if it would have been possible with the class leading EVF, the best IBIS, one of the best weather sealing, and other class leading hardware) and charged another $300 for the VLog (since it may require a lot more work and be too advanced for most users) I feel the price difference between $1999 and $2499 is huge, especially if one plans to pick up more than a single camera. The S1 prices will also go down, the only question is when.

The Eos R on the other hand, is at the bottom of its category, and should, therefore have been priced accordingly. 

PS: These guys believe that a price cut is in the offing wrt to All Mirrors Cameras, including the S1. I am personally hoping the S1 hits $1999 and stays there. 

https://photorumors.com/2019/04/26/the-full-frame-mirrorless-price-war-has-started/

 

[DBounce]

44 minutes ago, sanveer said:

The Eos R on the other hand, is at the bottom of its category, and should, therefore have been priced accordingly. 

PS: These guys believe that a price cut is in the offing wrt to All Mirrors Cameras, including the S1. I am personally hoping the S1 hits $1999 and stays there. 

https://photorumors.com/2019/04/26/the-full-frame-mirrorless-price-war-has-started/

 

I do not believe the EOS R is at the bottom of it’s category. The video quality is good, the AF is excellent. The codec is strong. Audio sounds good with the built in preamps. For stills it is very good indeed.

The flip screen is convenient to work with. Battery life acceptable. The body feels well made. The adapters work great. And the ND adapter is fantastic.

While it’s competition is sharper, imo that’s not a plus. All forsake of the crop is pretty good... and there is no crop for stills. 

It’s funny, I could have... and still can buy any... or all of the EOS R’s contemporaries, yet do not feel tempted in the slightest to do so. Indeed, I owned them all but for the S1 and still own the R. 

[Kisaha]

The EOS RP is down to 1299 with the free adapter AND a free extension grip! I would love to have a cheap EF capable full frame camera for casual use, but this RP is so underperforming that I just can't make it happen, yet. Maybe for 999$?

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, sanveer said:

The Eos R on the other hand, is at the bottom of its category, and should, therefore have been priced accordingly. 

PS: These guys believe that a price cut is in the offing wrt to All Mirrors Cameras, including the S1. I am personally hoping the S1 hits $1999 and stays there. 

https://photorumors.com/2019/04/26/the-full-frame-mirrorless-price-war-has-started/

 

Price war on the G85 and X-T3 please 

[DBounce]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

 

Price war on the G85 and X-T3 please 

I don’t think Fuji will feel pressured to drop the price on the X-T3 anytime soon . I understand it’s selling pretty well for them. Not sure about the G85 though.

[Andrew Reid]

The EOS R, Z6, even S1 are a hard sell in the eyes of the average customer, who don't really see these doing anything particularly unique compared to Sony, long established on the full frame mirrorless market, or compared to the kit they already have.

I am sure some of us and early adopters love the Z6 and S1 in particular but I just can't see sales rocketing up... Panasonic made a mistake with the lens pricing and AF, whilst Nikon couldn't decide which customers to aim at.

When China joins the party, the established players are going to be even more fucked.

[Snowbro]

This is what your average consumer prefers to film on

[Snowbro]

Ok, so they finally fixed the nasty banding in photos. I would use the camera for stills outside of events. 

 

[sanveer]

22 hours ago, DBounce said:

I do not believe the EOS R is at the bottom of it’s category. The video quality is good, the AF is excellent. The codec is strong. Audio sounds good with the built in preamps. For stills it is very good indeed.

The flip screen is convenient to work with. Battery life acceptable. The body feels well made. The adapters work great. And the ND adapter is fantastic.

While it’s competition is sharper, imo that’s not a plus. All forsake of the crop is pretty good... and there is no crop for stills. 

It’s funny, I could have... and still can buy any... or all of the EOS R’s contemporaries, yet do not feel tempted in the slightest to do so. Indeed, I owned them all but for the S1 and still own the R. 

 

Let's list out the Shortcomings of the EOS R

1. No 4k 60p and no DCI 4k. 

2. 1080p only at 23.98/24/29.97/59.94fps. 

3. No 120fps 1080p. It still has 720p for high speed video (in 2019???). 

4. MP4 video format instead of MOV

5. Internal codec limited to 4:2:0 8-bit internal recording despite that monstrous 480mbps codec MP4. 

6. Huge 1.7x crop factor with 4K (some even claim an imaginary 1.8x crop). Meaning low light would be an issue and the quality of sharpness may be debatable

 7. Recording time limited to 29:59 for continuous video recording. 

8. No IBIS and many of it's new lenses don't have OIS meaning shake would be like a bad amateur after effects job. 

9. There was banding in photos, but it seems to have been improved substantially.

9. One of the lowest rated full frame Mirrorless sensors (especially for dynamic range). 

10. Class leading rolling shutter (?)

11. PDAF not as effective in 4k as it is in 1080p (only a few people seem to have noticed this, apparently).

12. Not the most impressive battery life. 

 

Ok, I got bored writing this. There are a few more points. Maybe you could fill them out when you read this. Hehehe. 

[DBounce]

55 minutes ago, sanveer said:

 

Let's list out the Shortcomings of the EOS R

1. No 4k 60p and no DCI 4k. 

I don't shoot music videos... so could care less about slowmo.

2. 1080p only at 23.98/24/29.97/59.94fps. 

And?

3. No 120fps 1080p. It still has 720p for high speed video (in 2019???). 

This again?

4. MP4 video format instead of MOV

Potato potarto?

5. Internal codec limited to 4:2:0 8-bit internal recording despite that monstrous 480mbps codec MP4. Because there are other full frame cameras offering this?

6. Huge 1.7x crop factor with 4K (some even claim an imaginary 1.8x crop). Meaning low light would be an issue and the quality of sharpness may be debatable

Oh there's a crop in 4k... no one has mentioned this? 

Sharpness is fine. You can turn it completely off. Can't think of any of its contemporaries this is true for. 

 7. Recording time limited to 29:59 for continuous video recording. Guess I never noticed this as I record externally anyway for 10 bit.

8. No IBIS and many of it's new lenses don't have OIS meaning shake would be like a bad amateur after effects job. IBIS? Oh you mean the jello maker mode. Don't miss it. It's why I sold the GH5 for the S variant.

9. There was banding in photos, but it seems to have been improved substantially. Never experienced this.

9. One of the lowest rated full frame Mirrorless sensors (especially for dynamic range). 

10. Class leading rolling shutter (?) Whip pan king?

11. PDAF not as effective in 4k as it is in 1080p (only a few people seem to have noticed this, apparently). What?

12. Not the most impressive battery life. True, that honor goes to Voyager 1.

 

Ok, I got bored writing this. There are a few more points. Maybe you could fill them out when you read this. Hehehe. 

I'll add some more:

Coke not Pepsi 

I'd like to thank the academy.

Too late Luther... too late.

Let go my Eggo.

Have you actually used one... or are you a spec sheet warrior?? 

[Video Hummus]

The EOS R is not a terrible camera. It’s has some serious handicaps that can be lived with depending on what you use your gear for. It’s not my cup of tea. It leans heavily on it being the only mirrorless camera with dual pixel AF. I mean, I am now seeing people comparing 720p to 4K and 1080p on YouTube saying you can’t tell a difference. 720p is the new 4K guys. This just smacks of people wanting the EOR R to do what they want, but it not having the specs to do it and convincing themselves it doesn’t matter anyway.

However, given the fact that we haven’t seen a pro level mirrorless camera from canon makes it a bad value at the current moment.

I agree with Andrew about the S1. If they would have added PDAF it would be a much better value proposition, even with its high entry price with the new mount. I have a feeling even if they improved their DfD AF at this point it has such a stigma attached to it that people will still say the AF is no good. 

I also expect to see a lot of used second hand EOS Rs on the market when Canon releases the EOS RX pro model, or whatever they will call it.

[DBounce]

8 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

The EOS R is not a terrible camera. It’s has some serious handicaps that can be lived with depending on what you use your gear for. It’s not my cup of tea. It leans heavily on it being the only mirrorless camera with dual pixel AF. I mean, I am now seeing people comparing 720p to 4K and 1080p on YouTube saying you can’t tell a difference. 720p is the new 4K guys. This just smacks of people wanting the EOR R to do what they want, but it not having the specs to do it and convincing themselves it doesn’t matter anyway.

However, given the fact that we haven’t seen a pro level mirrorless camera from canon makes it a bad value at the current moment.

I agree with Andrew about the S1. If they would have added PDAF it would be a much better value proposition, even with its high entry price with the new mount. I have a feeling even if they improved their DfD AF at this point it has such a stigma attached to it that people will still say the AF is no good. 

I also expect to see a lot of used second hand EOS Rs on the market when Canon releases the EOS RX pro model, or whatever they will call it.

All of the current cameras have some serious handicaps. The Sony has no 10 bit output, and subpar color science. Panasonic poor AF. Nikon poor preamps. And yes the EOS R has a crop. Of all of these issues IMO the one easiest to deal with is the crop. I can simply use wider lenses or re-frame; which I do, if the situation calls for it. With no 10 bit output, coupled to a weak codec and not great color science, well, I'm a bit stuck. Granted, the Nikon's poor preamps are easy enough to work around also. With the Panasonic's poor AF... again, a bit stuck. Most viewers will not notice the bump in DR, but ALL will notice out of focus shots. So you pick your poison. There is no perfect camera. And once there is... we will find new things to b!tch about. 

The last statement about "a lot of second hand EOS R's" once the pro model comes out can apply to all the rest of these cameras also. When Panasonic releases the 10 bit internal, flip screen, PDAF GH6 full frame camera, who here will give a toss about the S1? But truth is there may still not be a lot of them for sale used. Because honesty, I can't imagine Panasonic is moving a whole heap of them. You can't drop the ball on AF, because it matters not how good the image is, if it's out of focus. If your camera is a hybrid in 2019, the AF is expected to work. No excuses. Had the S1 been equipped with serviceable AF, I would have bought two bodies and matching glass. 

[Video Hummus]

3 minutes ago, DBounce said:

When Panasonic releases the 10 bit internal, flip screen, PDAF GH6 full frame camera, who here will give a toss about the S1?

I highly doubt there will be a full frame GH6. But you’re right. The S1 is perplexing. I also think it won’t sell well.

7 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Of all of these issues IMO the one easiest to deal with is the crop. I can simply use wider lenses or re-frame; which I do, if the situation calls for it.

I would disagree. It’s less expensive to buy a $200 Deity D3 pro shotgun mic and turn down the preamps on the Z6 then it is to buy wide angle lens. I haven’t checked lately but I’m not sure Canon sells a 9-21mm that would get you a 16-35 equivalent with that 1.7x crop in 4K.

I also agree that Panasonic is in the worst shape here with bad AF. Is it useable? Yes. Is it trustworthy enough to rely on in a paid shoot? Way to risky. They need to get their AF shit together.

[DBounce]

@Video Hummus Canon makes a EF-S 10-18mm f/4.5-5.6 IS STM Lens that works great with the EOS R adapted. It plenty wide. But that said actually too wide for my taste most of the time. My goto for the R when going wide is the 16-35mm F4. 

The Nikon vs Canon was a hard decision for me. But ultimately, I just preferred the image from the Canon. Put it on sharpness level 2 and it's perfect. I like that flexibility. That said I look forward to the follow ups of all of these cameras. They are already pretty good overall.

[ade towell]

How did any of you lot manage in film production a few years ago, AF has only just become semi reliable? You all talk like you can't work without it?

I'd say the RS is another major issue with the Eos-r - I've tried it and it is very noticeable and no you don't have to whip pan to see it. I had the Sony a6300 and I don't want to have to be so limited in how I move a camera again 

[Video Hummus]

9 minutes ago, DBounce said:

16-35mm F4

But is that really wide when shooting in 4K? That’s a 28-60. Close to a Tamron 27-75 E-Mount zoom lens.

9 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Canon makes a EF-S 10-18mm f/4.5-5.6 IS STM Lens

Eh, it works but it’s an EF-S lens. Which kinda narrows its appeal.

Im not hating on the EOS R. The final image out of the camera can be quite good. I’m just saying Canon could have and should have done better.

9 minutes ago, ade towell said:

How did any of you lot manage in film production a few years ago, AF has only just become semi reliable? You all talk like you can't work without it?

We’re spoiled. It makes some shots much easier to do with one person, a camera, and a gimbal. Who wouldn’t want some half decent AF on their camera?

[DBounce]

Let's face the facts... all of the major players held back, save for Nikon, who I think genuinely tried their best. Where is the A7S3? That's going to be one to watch... and if it isn't there are going to be a lot of pissed off customers. Hopefully it has no issues with overheating, and is blessed with good color science. Fuji has sworn to forgo full frame, favoring medium format. We will have to see how that pans out. Panasonic, where is that organic sensor? Canon can we get a sensor that can do 14 stops of DR... just asking. 

Yes, the entire batch of current cameras are destined for resale on ebay sooner than later.

[Andrew Reid]

On 4/30/2019 at 2:53 PM, DBounce said:

I do not believe the EOS R is at the bottom of it’s category. The video quality is good, the AF is excellent. The codec is strong. Audio sounds good with the built in preamps. For stills it is very good indeed.

The flip screen is convenient to work with. Battery life acceptable. The body feels well made. The adapters work great. And the ND adapter is fantastic.

While it’s competition is sharper, imo that’s not a plus. All forsake of the crop is pretty good... and there is no crop for stills. 

It’s funny, I could have... and still can buy any... or all of the EOS R’s contemporaries, yet do not feel tempted in the slightest to do so. Indeed, I owned them all but for the S1 and still own the R. 

 

11 hours ago, sanveer said:

 

Let's list out the Shortcomings of the EOS R

1. No 4k 60p and no DCI 4k. 

2. 1080p only at 23.98/24/29.97/59.94fps. 

3. No 120fps 1080p. It still has 720p for high speed video (in 2019???). 

4. MP4 video format instead of MOV

5. Internal codec limited to 4:2:0 8-bit internal recording despite that monstrous 480mbps codec MP4. 

6. Huge 1.7x crop factor with 4K (some even claim an imaginary 1.8x crop). Meaning low light would be an issue and the quality of sharpness may be debatable

 7. Recording time limited to 29:59 for continuous video recording. 

8. No IBIS and many of it's new lenses don't have OIS meaning shake would be like a bad amateur after effects job. 

9. There was banding in photos, but it seems to have been improved substantially.

9. One of the lowest rated full frame Mirrorless sensors (especially for dynamic range). 

10. Class leading rolling shutter (?)

11. PDAF not as effective in 4k as it is in 1080p (only a few people seem to have noticed this, apparently).

12. Not the most impressive battery life. 

 

Ok, I got bored writing this. There are a few more points. Maybe you could fill them out when you read this. Hehehe. 

Funny thing is you're both right.

There are pros and cons to the EOS R and it's a case of deciding what you need.

I need full frame, with minimum quality of 4K.... Not the usual Canon Not Even 1080p level of detail. I already have very good Super 35mm for $1000 from Fuji and don't need to spend over double to get it from Canon, with even more of a crop at 1.8x. Why not just use a GH5? OK, the autofocus is a strong point on the EOS R but most of my favourite lenses are manual focus any way.

I need good slow mo. EOS R has the worst looking 120fps I've ever seen. May as well be 480p standard def with moire.

I need handheld stabilisation, and I don't care how it's implemented as long as it works brilliantly like the Olympus E-M1X does. The EOS R's doesn't, and it crops in even further. Also the rolling shutter in 4K is a big problem for handheld shooting.

I also need very good low light performance and again the EOS R is found wanting.

Finally I like a camera with a bit of a soul, not a charmless body but some photographic DNA In there. The EOS R doesn't really do it for me in that department either.

Then again these are just my needs... Others are entitled to their opinions. Some don't even need video and will look at it purely as a stills cam or a work tool.

And yes the battery life is pretty mediocre too. The only things it really leads in are:

Colour science

Nice EVF with good peaking

Canon lenses

Dual Pixel AF...

But then again Sony, Fuji and Olympus (E-M1X) are all doing great video AF and tracking now... Dual Pixel AF is less of a draw.

[ade towell]

22 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

We’re spoiled. It makes some shots much easier to do with one person, a camera, and a gimbal. Who wouldn’t want some half decent AF on their camera?

I get it for use on a gimbal but am not a fan, they're so overused and mechanical looking they kind of bug me these days. Ha sorry am going to be 50 in a few weeks, can you tell... 

[Video Hummus]

9 minutes ago, ade towell said:

I get it for use on a gimbal but am not a fan, they're so overused and mechanical looking they kind of bug me these days. Ha sorry am going to be 50 in a few weeks, can you tell... 

Yes, I agree. But a good ol’ fashion glidecam benefits from it too.