Mokara Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 27 minutes ago, Kisaha said: The a6xxx doesnt even has adequate buttons, and it is the same thing since literally the beginning of the mirrorless era. Must be dead cheap to manufacture. "slightly more expensive electronics"?! What do you mean "slightly"!?!? Data transfer/sensor size/buffer, everything is on a much bigger scale. Also A7 cameras can be cheaper than a6xxx cameras. You have no idea how cheap those things actually are. The actual cost difference for those sorts of things is a few dollars. The difference in manufacturing cost is probably on the order of around $50 or less, taking the whole camera into account. That might not sound like much, but keep in mind that anything manufactured you go and buy in a store probably costs about 1/10th or less of what you pay to actually to make. Then, depending on your margin size, those small differences in cost have a huge impact on your ability to make a profit. The rest is marketing/distribution/retail/overhead/profit. It varies depending on the industry, but that is approximately the cost structure involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ade towell Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 5 hours ago, Django said: No, they need that pro model to sell those pro lenses. The delay is just R&D / sensor tech related. Canon admitted in their Q1 financial report released few days ago that EOS R was rushed to meet demand/competition. I wonder what Canon can bring to a pro model to be competitive, presuming it will have a much higher price than the EOS-R and the rest of the market? The Canon main selling points over the years in my opinion have been the colour, AF and lenses... The EOS-R does have nice Canon colour but in my opinion Panasonic S1 and the XT3 have now surpassed them Their AF is no longer a clear market leader - Sony look like they are overtaking them They have relied on their huge ef and efs lens range that people already own but this is a new mount and so this is no longer such a great selling point - they are giving away the adaptor with the camera now but as you say most people will hang onto their ef lenses The DR and RS and crop is way behind the competition at the moment as are their video specs - I'm not convinced they have good enough sensor tech to get that back. It feels like they are being left behind. I would love to be wrong because I have a lot of Canon lenses and a couple of their cameras and if they they could create a decent stills and video hybrid camera I would buy it even if it was a bit more expensive than the competition. But I don't think they really care about the video side in their stills cameras, and I have little faith in them turning it round and so think I'm going to sell all my Canon stuff, just not sure whether to go Panasonic or Fuji at the moment PrometheusDM and webrunner5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Django Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 I would be happy with 1DX2 specs (no crop) + IBIS in a mirrorless body with dual card slots & C-Log 1/2/3. (IBIS is already confirmed btw) Canon obviously have to keep developing their tech. I expect quad-pixel AF. Better DR/ISO/RS etc.. We'll just have to wait & see what they come up with. If they drop the ball on video in the pro model, I'm out too. Either A7III+FS7 or S1+EVA1. Not super keen on either alternative atm, but it is getting tiresome to feel held back. webrunner5 and ade towell 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currensheldon Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 I've tried both C200 + EOS R, but decided to stick with my EVA-1 + GH5, maybe replacing the latter with the S1 once the V-Log, 10-bit update rolls out. But having three mounts across the same brand (EVA: EF, MFT, and L-Mount) is a headache. I love Canon but the GH5, S1, and Fuji mirrorless cameras feel so much more professional, robust, and tactile than the EOS R - and are fun to use instead of a chore. I'd love it if Canon came out strong with their pro bodies, but if I had been holding my breath I would have passed out many times the past 5-years. I AM holding my breath for a Panasonic MFT video/cinema camera OR a Fuji X-Mount cinema/video camera. Whoever does it first, I'll go all in. Until then, the EVA-1 and GH5 are getting the job done. webrunner5 and Kisaha 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m43forme Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 17 hours ago, Django said: I would be happy with 1DX2 specs (no crop) + IBIS in a mirrorless body with dual card slots & C-Log 1/2/3. (IBIS is already confirmed btw) Canon obviously have to keep developing their tech. I expect quad-pixel AF. Better DR/ISO/RS etc.. We'll just have to wait & see what they come up with. If they drop the ball on video in the pro model, I'm out too. Either A7III+FS7 or S1+EVA1. Not super keen on either alternative atm, but it is getting tiresome to feel held back. If the Nikon Z6 gets their AF sorted in the upcoming firmware update, wouldn't it be the best hybrid camera on the market? Same sensor as the A7III but with a higher ceiling on video capabilities, bitrates, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 Any advantage the Z6 has to me is completely dependent on hanging a external recorder on it. That to me contradicts having a Mirrorless Hybrid camera. You might as well buy a Cine camera and be done with it. Hell that does not even include the goofy lack of any ports for a battery grip. It is their first big time effort but.. To me the Panasonic S1 kills the Z6. Not liking the mount, but the Z mount is nothing I like either. And like i have stated, I just Don't like the Z cameras CS. The D750, heck yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m43forme Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 54 minutes ago, webrunner5 said: Any advantage the Z6 has to me is completely dependent on hanging a external recorder on it. That to me contradicts having a Mirrorless Hybrid camera. You might as well buy a Cine camera and be done with it. Hell that does not even include the goofy lack of any ports for a battery grip. It is their first big time effort but.. To me the Panasonic S1 kills the Z6. Not liking the mount, but the Z mount is nothing I like either. And like i have stated, I just Don't like the Z cameras CS. The D750, heck yes. Right but the previous poster noted he was using an A7III + an FS7. I'd imagine a Z6 + an external monitor is a more manageable kit. And a Z6 with no external when 8 bit will do. I feel like saying "I need a good hybrid because I also shoot a lot of stills, but when I need 10 bit 422 for significant color grades, I have to record externally...so instead I'll buy a huge $7000 cine camera" is missing the point a little bit. Kisaha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntblowz Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 5 hours ago, currensheldon said: I've tried both C200 + EOS R, but decided to stick with my EVA-1 + GH5, maybe replacing the latter with the S1 once the V-Log, 10-bit update rolls out. But having three mounts across the same brand (EVA: EF, MFT, and L-Mount) is a headache. I love Canon but the GH5, S1, and Fuji mirrorless cameras feel so much more professional, robust, and tactile than the EOS R - and are fun to use instead of a chore. I'd love it if Canon came out strong with their pro bodies, but if I had been holding my breath I would have passed out many times the past 5-years. I AM holding my breath for a Panasonic MFT video/cinema camera OR a Fuji X-Mount cinema/video camera. Whoever does it first, I'll go all in. Until then, the EVA-1 and GH5 are getting the job done. I think L-Mount is probably the future for Panasonic, as competitors offering FF sensor option on their cinema bodies they definitely don't want to be left behind. Consider Leica also make Cinema lens so its more sense to have complete body and lens package for the eco-system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currensheldon Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 2 hours ago, ntblowz said: I think L-Mount is probably the future for Panasonic, as competitors offering FF sensor option on their cinema bodies they definitely don't want to be left behind. Consider Leica also make Cinema lens so its more sense to have complete body and lens package for the eco-system. I think you're probably right and I hope so. If they wanted to unify the S1 series with their cinema lines, would be pretty easy to put out an L-Mount EVA-2 sooner rather than later. Or perhaps an in between camera, a mini EVA at $4-5k with the L-Mount. I love the S1, but until there are more native lenses, I'll probably stick with the GH5 for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 3 hours ago, m43forme said: Right but the previous poster noted he was using an A7III + an FS7. I'd imagine a Z6 + an external monitor is a more manageable kit. And a Z6 with no external when 8 bit will do. I feel like saying "I need a good hybrid because I also shoot a lot of stills, but when I need 10 bit 422 for significant color grades, I have to record externally...so instead I'll buy a huge $7000 cine camera" is missing the point a little bit. Well a GH5, PK4 has10 bit or better right in camera for a cheap price. Plus lots of old cheap Cine, ENG cameras have 10 bit or better. Plus the big one, how many people on here Really even need better than 8bit? Until like 3 years ago most people never owned or even used a camera that could shoot better than 8bit. Looks to be a lot of video around that seemed to have used the "inferior 8bit for a lot of years that looks perfectly fine to me. If you expose it right, and not think you are going to get 20 strops in your footage it works pretty well. I am not saying that 10bit is not desirable, but I think it is being over-hyped to hell to just get people to upgrade and buy new equipment. Atomos would be out of business if they didn't push it. Imagine my surprise company's would do that. But everyone has different needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Django Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 17 hours ago, m43forme said: If the Nikon Z6 gets their AF sorted in the upcoming firmware update, wouldn't it be the best hybrid camera on the market? Same sensor as the A7III but with a higher ceiling on video capabilities, bitrates, etc. Nikon would need to sort out lot more than the AF for me to consider Z6. As others pointed out you basically need an Atomos for video (just to shoot N-Log) which defeats the purpose of a compact hybrid. shooting handheld, on gimbal/slider with the camera tethered to a recorder via HDMI is a PITA. 16 hours ago, m43forme said: Right but the previous poster noted he was using an A7III + an FS7. I'd imagine a Z6 + an external monitor is a more manageable kit. And a Z6 with no external when 8 bit will do. I feel like saying "I need a good hybrid because I also shoot a lot of stills, but when I need 10 bit 422 for significant color grades, I have to record externally...so instead I'll buy a huge $7000 cine camera" is missing the point a little bit. False assumption. A dual cam setup allows for a lot of flexibility including A/B multi-cam setups. FS7 can also do a lot more than just 10 bit 422. 4K60p, 180fps in cam and up to 240fps RAW in 2K externally. A cine cam also gives you ND filters, XLRs, SDI, TC, Battery life & overall reliability/ergonomics that are invaluable on a long paid shoot. That's another reason why Nikon or Fuji aren't really an option for me as they offer no cine cam ecosystem. And since I like to work with one lens set per shoot that kind of eliminates Panasonic as an option as well. Leaving Sony as the only practical alternative to Canon. Canon still has DPAF advantage on their cine cams so I'm not really ready to switch but I like to keep an open mind.. m43forme and webrunner5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 On 5/6/2019 at 7:52 PM, Kisaha said: It's all relative. I shot a performance last night with GH5/JVC LS300/1 A7iii and 2 NX1, which literally is a dead mount, and in terms of performance, focus dampening (the throw and feel is unbelievable) the S lenses were the best of the group (Sony 24-105mm, Olympus 12-40mm 2.8, Panasonic 12-60mm) For sure, for someone who already owns a NX1 then they should just keep on using it. But would many people think it is a sane idea to recommend buying a new NX1 for someone starting out?? On 5/6/2019 at 7:52 PM, Kisaha said: For most of the M50 buyers this will be the last camera they will ever need, or want. It will be adequate for family and travel pictures for the foreseable future and it is clearly targeted to the masses, and not us. It is indeed likely many will have it as their "last" camera, and will never buy another lens. But for some people, especially people who come to specialist forums like this, that they will go further and deeper down this path. Then EOS M mount (or NX mount) is totally the wrong path to set them down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m43forme Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 7 hours ago, IronFilm said: But would many people think it is a sane idea to recommend buying a new NX1 for someone starting out?? This depends, really. A super clean NX1 sold yesterday on eBay for $540. B&H had an NX1 + 16-50S kit for $1150 (used) last week. There's nothing on the face of this earth for $1100 that can touch that combo for video. Many people starting out don't have a ton of money. I'd feel better telling someone who is starting out to invest $1100 on that combo (assuming that setup fits their needs) than I would telling them to buy a GH5 for $1500, a $400 speedbooster, and a $600 Sigma 18-35mm. Unless budget didn't matter. Don't even get me started on used NX500 prices, which are around $350. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 26 minutes ago, m43forme said: This depends, really. A super clean NX1 sold yesterday on eBay for $540. B&H had an NX1 + 16-50S kit for $1150 (used) last week. There's nothing on the face of this earth for $1100 that can touch that combo for video. Many people starting out don't have a ton of money. I'd feel better telling someone who is starting out to invest $1100 on that combo (assuming that setup fits their needs) than I would telling them to buy a GH5 for $1500, a $400 speedbooster, and a $600 Sigma 18-35mm. Unless budget didn't matter. Don't even get me started on used NX500 prices, which are around $350. 8 hours ago, IronFilm said: For sure, for someone who already owns a NX1 then they should just keep on using it. But would many people think it is a sane idea to recommend buying a new NX1 for someone starting out?? It is indeed likely many will have it as their "last" camera, and will never buy another lens. But for some people, especially people who come to specialist forums like this, that they will go further and deeper down this path. Then EOS M mount (or NX mount) is totally the wrong path to set them down. My point is that a camera system is not like a dead parrot. With a good system you can produce for many years, the NX1 is pinin' for the fjords! webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 16 hours ago, m43forme said: This depends, really. A super clean NX1 sold yesterday on eBay for $540. I imagine that is quite rare the price happens to be that low. And it can't be that many months away until a Fujifilm X-T30 or a Sony a6400 sells for near to that price. Will happen before Xmas for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted May 13, 2019 Super Members Share Posted May 13, 2019 $540 for a NX1.. must have been a gold edition.. The prices on used stuff in some countries is just crazy imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m43forme Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 hour ago, IronFilm said: I imagine that is quite rare the price happens to be that low. And it can't be that many months away until a Fujifilm X-T30 or a Sony a6400 sells for near to that price. Will happen before Xmas for sure. $540 is low, but not that far out of the norm. Bokeh Market has it trending at $611 http://bokehmarket.com/product/430/Samsung-Samsung-NX1-282-MP-Digital-Camera I have an X-T3, NX1, and an a6400. The NX1 stomps them for bang for buck on video. An X-T30 + 16-55 is almost double the price of what you can get the Samsung kit all day long. And Sony really doesn't have APS-C glass good for video. Still all good options, I just bristle a bit at the thought that getting an NX1 now is some ridiculous notion. 1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said: $540 for a NX1.. must have been a gold edition.. The prices on used stuff in some countries is just crazy imo. NX gear pricing held up in the US for a good few years, and the 50-150 is still crazy expensive. But overall the prices have fallen pretty hard and are pushing really good bargain right now. In Europe, NX gear is still ridiculously over-priced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 The Digital Bolex regularly fetches considerable more than it's new price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted May 13, 2019 Super Members Share Posted May 13, 2019 40 minutes ago, m43forme said: In Europe, NX gear is still ridiculously over-priced. Im located in Europe and the NX1 is practically for free here. To fetch $540 it needs to include the S-zoom or a couple of nice primes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m43forme Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 32 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said: Im located in Europe and the NX1 is practically for free here. To fetch $540 it needs to include the S-zoom or a couple of nice primes. Oh that's crazy. Looks like I've found you a nice little arbitrage business. If you need a US importer, I can help haha! Also, I love your channel, have been a subscriber for some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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