Full frame rival sales figures = grim reading for everyone vs Sony

[Cliff Totten]

Oh yeah....Panny no doubt threw some cripple tricks into the S1. One of the worst being 128k compressed audio! 128k!!!! What decent camera on planet Earth has audio THAT compressed?

The S1 was given one of the WORST audio recording modes in the entire camera industry. It sounds "ok" but what happens when you take a 128k audio track, edit it and it gets compressed again on YouTube? Your 128k....which is already heavily stripped of data...gets slammed again.

Dont worry though, if you buy the VLog upgrade, you THEN get PCM uncompressed audio.

[ade towell]

No they are all in business to make money obviously, and Panasonic has said the S1 is aimed more at photographers, the GH5 being a true video stills hybrid, and the v-log is paid option for those who are more serious about video, like with the 5d mk4. My frustration with Canon is they take this segmentation to the next level, I've spent years waiting for them to offer a decent stills camera to go with my c100 and they just drip feed you tiny morsels year after year. That they haven't got decent 4k in their mirrorless 'full frame' camera in 2019 seems ridiculous to me.

The c100 was the last great value camera Canon have created in my view, but now I am being asked for 4k more and more, so I need to go with a company that supports that without having to jump up to the price of the cine cameras C200, C300 mk2. Am going to try and embrace the smaller size of the mirrorless world and use my SD mix pre-d for audio. The nd adaptor is the best thing about the EOS-r for me, but it is a bit expensive considering you can't use it on native lenses. Hope Panasonic bring out something similar that works natively

Sorry if this thread has gone a bit off topic...

[ade towell]

46 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

Oh yeah....Panny no doubt threw some cripple tricks into the S1. One of the worst being 128k compressed audio! 128k!!!! What decent camera on planet Earth has audio THAT compressed?

The S1 was given one of the WORST audio recording modes in the entire camera industry. It sounds "ok" but what happens when you take a 128k audio track, edit it and it gets compressed again on YouTube? Your 128k....which is already heavily stripped of data...gets slammed again.

Dont worry though, if you buy the VLog upgrade, you THEN get PCM uncompressed audio.

Ah that's not so good, if I do go with the S1 I would get the vlog anyway but  yes that's a peculiar one

[Django]

Yikes.. crippling audio?! that's certainly a new low.. 

[BTM_Pix]

3 hours ago, Django said:

Yikes.. crippling audio?! that's certainly a new low.. 

Canon : "Hold my beer...."

[Mako Sports]

As someone thats an semi audiophile that audio crippling is kinda scary. 

[TheDingo]

5 hours ago, Django said:

Oh cmon, Panasonic removed a lot of video stuff to not take away from GH5 sales. They don't give you V-Log either, it's a paid option.

The GH5 didn't have V-Log L either, it was a paid upgrade too. We shall have to see what Panasonic delivers with the S1 video upgrade, but I'm expecting it will leave very little difference between what the GH5 and S1 cameras can do. ( in theory there will be no ALL-I 400 Mbps recording, no DCI recording, no anamorphic recording, but this will all have to be checked once the upgrade starts shipping )

17 hours ago, Django said:

Not really. Nobody asked for rubbish DfD AF, 4K60p crop & a kilo weight size.

I expect A7S3 to have killer AF, 4K60p / 1080p 240fps no crop, ultra-low RS, electronic auto-ND, next-level low light & a surprise feature like 8K burst or something.

As more in depth reviews of the S1 appear, DfD AF is proving not to be rubbish at all. It's not as fast as Canon / Fujifilm / Sony AF, but it is able to recognize humans and animals in situations where Sony AF doesn't. ( see Lok's 3 month YouTube review where he shows the S1 recognizing a person in profile, where the Sony A7III sees nothing at all )

Internal 4K60p crop is a LOT better than NO 4K 60p at all. ( it's a processing power issue, so it make take another generation of Panasonic FF cameras to achieve 4K 60p without the crop )

The size and weight all have to do with dealing with the heat from recording 4K 10-bit 4:2:2 with no recording limit. Sony is going to have to live with their 4K overheating issue, or adopt a much larger body for the A7SIII.

I've been hearing about the amazing A7SIII for 3 1/2 years now with no real facts about anything being produced. I have no idea what is taking Sony so long to produce this mythical camera, but I expect many Sony fans will be upset if the A7SIII can't deliver on all these magical wish-lists that may have no basis in reality at all. Will it ship this year ?  Who knows...

[BTM_Pix]

I'd have thought it more logical, though no less forgivable, if Panasonic would've done the snide unlock the uncompressed audio bullshit if you use the DMW-XLR1 adapter rather than bundling it with VLOG.

I think I'd be pissed off to have sprung £300 to improve the audio on the way in to the camera to discover that its still being nobbled inside unless I buy an upgrade for the picture profile.

[TheDingo]

1 minute ago, BTM_Pix said:

I'd have thought it more logical, though no less forgivable, if Panasonic would've done the snide unlock the uncompressed audio bullshit if you use the DMW-XLR1 adapter rather than bundling it with VLOG.

I think I'd be pissed off to have sprung £300 to improve the audio on the way in to the camera to discover that its still being nobbled inside unless I buy an upgrade for the picture profile.

I haven't heard anything about the pricing for the S1 video upgrade, so for all I know it will be the same $97 US that it is for the GH5 camera. And if it does turn out to be $300 US, I won't have any problem paying for it because it will be something that I will use every time I shoot with it.

[BTM_Pix]

39 minutes ago, TheDingo said:

I haven't heard anything about the pricing for the S1 video upgrade, so for all I know it will be the same $97 US that it is for the GH5 camera. And if it does turn out to be $300 US, I won't have any problem paying for it because it will be something that I will use every time I shoot with it.

From what I understand it will be somewhere roughly halfway between those two figures.

My point really isn't about the VLOG but the audio interface, as when someone has paid £300 for that to improve their audio I think that it would be appropriate to include the uncompressed audio upgrade in with that too. It seems a bit odd that the premium audio accessory for a camera should then still have to rely on a picture related upgrade to actually realise its potential.

As the camera can detect that the DMW XLR1 is attached then it could easily act as a dongle just to enable the uncompressed audio.

Maybe it does?

Has anyone got and S1 and DMW XLR1 that they can verify that with?

[DBounce]

The most frustrating thing with all this crippling is that any one of these cameras could have been the complete package. As it is we are all sort of waiting for gen 2 products. I originally intended two buy two mirrorless bodies as B and C cams. But as it is, I figured I would hold off on the second body until the "Pro" gen 2 body was released. The Panasonic comes pretty close, but it falls short in some very obvious and needless ways. There was no technological reason Panasonic could not have added a flip screen, like the GH series. There were no hurdles preventing them from implementing PDAF. Those two addition would have netted Panasonic's L-MOUNT ALLIANCE a neat $12,420 from my purchases of two DC-S1 bodies, with Panasonic Lumix S Pro 50 F1.4 and the Leica Vario-Elmarit-SL 24-90mm f/2.8-4 ASPH... along with two spare DMW-BLJ31 batteries. It's their loss. This foolish crippling is just one way that Panasonic missed out. I can tell you this, Canon had better not pull any silliness with the 1DXMk2 replacement. 

I really think it may fall to Fuji and Nikon to deliver the ultimate hybrid camera. There are no Chinese players in this space, so those two companies have an opportunity to really show the world how it should be done. I'll be curious to see what the new GFX-100 brings along with Nikon's pro body. 

[MrSMW]

In short:

A: They are all actually great at something

B: But none of them great at everything

And the answer is there never will be because in the near future someone will be criticizing the crop on the 12k 120p or the fact that Camera X only has 17 stops of IBIS compared with Camera Y. Etc.

Or just go out and use what is currently best for you and enjoy it. Which everyone knows is the Fuji XT3. Despite no IBIS. And it’s not FF. But APART from that... ?

[Mokara]

12 hours ago, Bracketmounts said:

 

Overall camera sales based on BCN's figures (BCN only gather 40% of total POS in Japan by their own reckoning.) Have Canon crops in the top 4 spots. Sony's first entry is the a6400 at 6th.

The A7iii comes in at 17th for body only model with the zoom model at 22nd. The EOS R is at 34th body only. The EOS R as a kit is not in the top 50. Neither body only or kit RP is in the top 50. And this is very telling. Because it contradicts the FF sales data. How can the RP be ranked below the R and not be in the top 50 according to this data https://www.bcnretail.com/research/ranking/monthly/list/contents_type=101 yet outsell the R throughout the month by a large margin according to the graph.

There is a misalignment of a week in the two data sets but something is seriously screwy and until it is clear, the data from both sets needs to be treated as invalid.

Because those overall sales figures are for all camera types, not just FF. When it comes to FF, the a7III is the best selling camera.

14 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Those numbers are misleading. Mirrorless is definitely eating up the low-end, but the pro market (stills, wildlife, sports) is shooting DSLR and will continue until Canikon have pro-grade mirrorless bodies available. Canikon's current offerings lack so much that the pro-market require (and will continue to require). I don't see doom for the pro DSLR market quite yet. This will only happen when manufacturers produce an adapter that will correctly operate a DSLR lens and manufacturers have pro-level bodies... dual card slots, vertical grips, better AF. Why would a pro sell all their lenses and bodies for mirrorless when mirrorless really doesn't offer anything more than the lack of a mirror? Maybe, in the segment of of pro-DSLR, a hybrid system will spell the end of mirrorless at the high-end pro-grade cameras... it could happen. Personally, I really miss the ability to look through a viewfinder when the camera is turned off. I liked that... maybe I'm weird though. 

According to the BCN sales data as a whole the a7III outsells the FF DSLRs as well. It is the end of the road for DSLRs in the enthusiast market. 

The pro market might still be using DSLRs (but for long?) but that is not where most of the FF DSLRs are being sold. The vast majority are being bought by the prosumer segment. When those people stop buying those cameras they will no longer be subsidising the pros, and that means that DSLRs that might be produced in the future will cost a lot more in order to cover the development costs. At the same time they will be competing against MILCs that are just as good and likely increasingly superior as time goes by. How long do you think those pros are going to stick with DSLRs when faced by increasing prices and decreasing functionality compared to MILCs?

[Mokara]

2 hours ago, DBounce said:

There were no hurdles preventing them from implementing PDAF.  

Actually there is. It is called intellectual property.

There are lots of things a company could do and would like to do, but can't, due to the IP position on the technology involved. If the IP is owned by someone else you can't just use it. 

10 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

Oh yeah....Panny no doubt threw some cripple tricks into the S1. One of the worst being 128k compressed audio! 128k!!!! What decent camera on planet Earth has audio THAT compressed?

The S1 was given one of the WORST audio recording modes in the entire camera industry. It sounds "ok" but what happens when you take a 128k audio track, edit it and it gets compressed again on YouTube? Your 128k....which is already heavily stripped of data...gets slammed again.

Dont worry though, if you buy the VLog upgrade, you THEN get PCM uncompressed audio.

Probably they have to license something to implement that, hence the fee for the upgrade.

[nickname]

The A73 is the first and only mature MILC. That is reflected in the sales. And it is mostly bought for photography by enthusiasts. Using tamron lenses my guess.

Would be interesting to see sales numbers for lenses, that could be more telling. I think those are the numbers that canikon are looking at. They are lens makers after all. Unlike Sony who are makers of electronics. 

Nikons problem is that nobody who bought a nikon in the last 5 years for photography will get massive upgrade from going MILC. their dslrs are still sufficient for the casual shooter. Simply no need to upgrade yet. Another 4 years maybe. 

[Mokara]

7 minutes ago, nickname said:

The A73 is the first and only mature MILC. That is reflected in the sales. And it is mostly bought for photography by enthusiasts. Using tamron lenses my guess.

Would be interesting to see sales numbers for lenses, that could be more telling. I think those are the numbers that canikon are looking at. They are lens makers after all. Unlike Sony who are makers of electronics. 

Nikons problem is that nobody who bought a nikon in the last 5 years for photography will get massive upgrade from going MILC. their dslrs are still sufficient for the casual shooter. Simply no need to upgrade yet. Another 4 years maybe. 

I expect their lens sales are going down as well. Some of the secondary lens manufacturers are producing very capable lenses these days. The old days where those sorts of lenses were cheap but inferior are gone.

Plus, if Sony are dominating the FF market, the sales are going to go to lenses for those cameras. Why would you buy a Canikon lens to go on an E-mount camera when there are native choices that are just as good or better?

[DBounce]

1 hour ago, Mokara said:

Actually there is. It is called intellectual property.

There are lots of things a company could do and would like to do, but can't, due to the IP position on the technology involved. If the IP is owned by someone else you can't just use it. 

Probably they have to license something to implement that, hence the fee for the upgrade.

All the tech is protected by IP... if Fuji and Nikon can implement it on their Sony based sensors, so can Panasonic. The S1 is almost twice the cost as the X-T3. 

And as was already pointed out, bundling an audio codec firmware with a picture profile makes no sense. It should be free with the $400 DMW-XLR1 audio adapter.

[ntblowz]

2 hours ago, nickname said:

The A73 is the first and only mature MILC. That is reflected in the sales. And it is mostly bought for photography by enthusiasts. Using tamron lenses my guess.

Would be interesting to see sales numbers for lenses, that could be more telling. I think those are the numbers that canikon are looking at. They are lens makers after all. Unlike Sony who are makers of electronics.

On the Sony A7III group there is been a running joke on renaming the group to Tamron 28-75 instead. That speak about the popularity of that lens.

[Amazeballs]

That lens alone is the reason I am frequently thinking of switching from GH5 to Sony A7 ecosystem. I am waiting A7S3 and GH6 news cos that will matter a lot. but lens wise Sony wins very heavily. Panasonic S1 lenses are abusrdly expensive and in a shallow number, upcoming M43 10-25 1.7 is rummored to be 2500$ which is fucking insane. But Sony Has Tamron 17-28 and 28-75 plus lots of other budget and unique lenses like Samyang 85 1.4 or Sony GM 24 1.4. MFT ot L-mount have nothing even close to that. Sony is just crushing everyone in this department. Yes I love Panasonic ergonomics, IBIS and some other stuff. but also I hate to swtich lenses ? 

[Kisaha]

48 minutes ago, Amazeballs said:

That lens alone is the reason I am frequently thinking of switching from GH5 to Sony A7 ecosystem. I am waiting A7S3 and GH6 news cos that will matter a lot. but lens wise Sony wins very heavily. Panasonic S1 lenses are abusrdly expensive and in a shallow number, upcoming M43 10-25 1.7 is rummored to be 2500$ which is fucking insane. But Sony Has Tamron 17-28 and 28-75 plus lots of other budget and unique lenses like Samyang 85 1.4 or Sony GM 24 1.4. MFT ot L-mount have nothing even close to that. Sony is just crushing everyone in this department. Yes I love Panasonic ergonomics, IBIS and some other stuff. but also I hate to swtich lenses ? 

In my opinion, and use, the 28mm is too much for most of the things I do. It is not wide enough.

My workhorse lenses for APS-C start from 16mm (24mm in 35 equiv, 16-50 are good for workhorse.) and m43 from 12mm (again, 24mm in 35 equiv. The Pana 12-60 and Olympus 12-100 are great). 

I have used a lot of times 18mm lenses (18-110 and the cheap 18-105mm Sony, 18-35mm and 18-135 EF-S for Canon) and most of the times I was missing those few 4mm at the wide end.

I agree with you, the recently priced reduced A7iii is really tempting - it is the best A camera ever made - but are still lacking on a few important things for pro use.