Full frame rival sales figures = grim reading for everyone vs Sony

[webrunner5]

I have always thought the Olympus EM1 series and the EM1-X have Phase Detect AF. That is why they can use the old 4/3 lenses.

[Bracketmounts]

On 5/4/2019 at 2:33 AM, Mokara said:

Because those overall sales figures are for all camera types, not just FF. When it comes to FF, the a7III is the best selling camera.

 

I believe you may have missed my point. The figures quoted here show the RP outselling the R by a large margin. The figures I link to show the R outselling the RP.

 

Either one set or both sets of data are wrong.

[Mokara]

17 hours ago, Bracketmounts said:

I believe you may have missed my point. The figures quoted here show the RP outselling the R by a large margin. The figures I link to show the R outselling the RP.

 

Either one set or both sets of data are wrong.

Not really. The table shows actual sales percentages over a period of months, whereas the second is a ranking of sales, probably a running weekly average. The latter would involve much smaller numbers, so there might be big differences in rankings involving fairly small number of actual cameras, especially when you get to the lower ranked cameras which are probably not moving much product. Something that sells 50 cameras a week might be ranked at 100th place for example, while something else that sells 60 per week could be in 50th place. On the other hand cameras in the top 10 could be selling hundreds or thousands of units a week. The models at 50th and 100th place would be "ranked" but essentially not be selling many units in comparison.

Also, keep in mind that the ranking involves different packages as well. The a7III is in two spots for example, presumably one is body only and the other is kit (I can't read Japanese but that is probably what it means). The R could rank above the RP if it is mostly selling in kit form while the RP sales could be broken into separate ranking for kit and bodies with roughly equal sales, which would then rank below the R as a result. Or vica versa. But one camera is being split up into multiple slots whereas the other is not.

The really big differences in actual sales would happen in the products at the very top of the list, the lower ranked cameras are likely not selling all that many units, and that can skew rankings, especially if there are multiple SKUs for a particular camera.

[Cliff Totten]

On 5/9/2019 at 1:32 PM, PrometheusDM said:

Your conspiracy is so twisted.

Why would Sony sell Panasonic their "patented 5.76 million dot EVF" and allow them to be the first manufacture with Sony's highest EVF and sensor with 4K 60 but won't sell hybrid AF? It isn't like Phase detect AF is something special new feature no other camera has it before like 4K60 or highest EVF.

Why would Sony license to Nikon & Fuji their sensors with hybrid AF but won't to Panasonic. Sony sensor division is independent of their camera  division on who they will license it to. They will sell to whoever has the money to pay for it.

Or could it be Panasonic do not want hybrid AF that has banding issues reported with Canon EOS R, Nikon Z, and Sony camera. It's rare but does happens. Check out DPReview forums for posts related to it. Panasonic mentioned they want to prioritize image quality and did not want to compromise on the IQ. I'm not sure if they will ever succeed, but I applaud them for going against the grain to figure something out with DFD tech and making mirrorless cameras not small like everyone else for those that prefer it. It's nice to have choices.

Tech Insights, at some point is going to X-ray the S1 sensor and identify what it is. Right now, it ver suspiciously looks like a Sony IMX410. (Sony A7-III and Nikon Z6)

"IF" it turns out that is an IMX410, Panny is in deep shit. Panny says they dont like phase detect AF because they are very against masking the PDAF photosites. If they are buying an IMX410...they MUST mask those photosites! "If" this is the case, they masking photosites AND not using the phase detect array at the same time. The only conclusion we could draw....is that Sony simply wont liscence PDAF to Panasonic.

By the way....every sensor on planet Earth has dead/defective photosites. A 24 million pixel sensor could literally have several hundred or more dead photosites that the read out system automatically masks out anyway. Photosite masking is a normal process on all cameras. Panasonic says they are against it...but they do it like everybody else does.

[webrunner5]

Yeah but if Panasonic Can perfect the Focus Stacking than They can license it, and have it basically for free. It isn't some new idea to patent something, and hope to perfect it thinking you are not going to hit the jackpot. Think Apple.

[PrometheusDM]

On 5/10/2019 at 6:22 PM, Cliff Totten said:

Tech Insights, at some point is going to X-ray the S1 sensor and identify what it is. Right now, it ver suspiciously looks like a Sony IMX410. (Sony A7-III and Nikon Z6)

"IF" it turns out that is an IMX410, Panny is in deep shit. Panny says they dont like phase detect AF because they are very against masking the PDAF photosites. If they are buying an IMX410...they MUST mask those photosites! "If" this is the case, they masking photosites AND not using the phase detect array at the same time. The only conclusion we could draw....is that Sony simply wont liscence PDAF to Panasonic.

By the way....every sensor on planet Earth has dead/defective photosites. A 24 million pixel sensor could literally have several hundred or more dead photosites that the read out system automatically masks out anyway. Photosite masking is a normal process on all cameras. Panasonic says they are against it...but they do it like everybody else does.

It doesn't matter to me. Maybe to Sony's fanboy.

If it does use Sony sensor, why couldn't Sony enable 4K60?

All I care is the final image IQ. As long it doesn't have any negative impact, that's all it matters to me.

[Mokara]

On 5/10/2019 at 6:22 PM, Cliff Totten said:

Tech Insights, at some point is going to X-ray the S1 sensor and identify what it is. Right now, it ver suspiciously looks like a Sony IMX410. (Sony A7-III and Nikon Z6)

"IF" it turns out that is an IMX410, Panny is in deep shit. Panny says they dont like phase detect AF because they are very against masking the PDAF photosites. If they are buying an IMX410...they MUST mask those photosites! "If" this is the case, they masking photosites AND not using the phase detect array at the same time. The only conclusion we could draw....is that Sony simply wont liscence PDAF to Panasonic.

By the way....every sensor on planet Earth has dead/defective photosites. A 24 million pixel sensor could literally have several hundred or more dead photosites that the read out system automatically masks out anyway. Photosite masking is a normal process on all cameras. Panasonic says they are against it...but they do it like everybody else does.

Probably because Sony themselves are licensing the PDAF technology they are actually using. That being the case, they would not be able to manufacture sensors for a third party using the IP in question unless the third party held a license as well. Whoever holds the critical piece of IP may not be inclined to license it to Panasonic for various reasons. They might want Panasonic to cross license some of their tech for example, and Panasonic may not want to do that.

Most of the big companies probably have some sort of cross licensing deals going on for various aspects of camera technology. So, some companies may be able to implement IP owned by a third company, whereas another company may not.

On 5/9/2019 at 10:32 AM, PrometheusDM said:

Your conspiracy is so twisted.

Why would Sony sell Panasonic their "patented 5.76 million dot EVF" and allow them to be the first manufacture with Sony's highest EVF and sensor with 4K 60 but won't sell hybrid AF? It isn't like Phase detect AF is something special new feature no other camera has it before like 4K60 or highest EVF.

Why would Sony license to Nikon & Fuji their sensors with hybrid AF but won't to Panasonic. Sony sensor division is independent of their camera  division on who they will license it to. They will sell to whoever has the money to pay for it.

Or could it be Panasonic do not want hybrid AF that has banding issues reported with Canon EOS R, Nikon Z, and Sony camera. It's rare but does happens. Check out DPReview forums for posts related to it. Panasonic mentioned they want to prioritize image quality and did not want to compromise on the IQ. I'm not sure if they will ever succeed, but I applaud them for going against the grain to figure something out with DFD tech and making mirrorless cameras not small like everyone else for those that prefer it. It's nice to have choices.

The reason very likely is that Sony does not own the IP involved (or at least partially), so they can't license it. They can only make sensors for companies that HAVE licensed it from the patent holders.

Alternatively, Sony owns some aspects of the IP, and other companies own other aspects, so they got together and agreed to cross license what they individually owned to each other so that all could use the technology (otherwise none could). Panasonic likely can't bring anything to that table, so they are cut out.

This is how things work routinely in tech business, especially with complicated things like electronic gadgets. No one owns everything, they have to make many deals to get the IP that allows them freedom to operate. It may not seem fair, the company that can make the best product may not be able to do so, or make their product as good as it could have been, due to IP restrictions.

[Robert Collins]

Sony signed a patent cross licensing deal with Aptina in 2013.

https://***URL removed***/articles/6474906938/aptina-signs-patent-cross-license-agreement-with-sony

Aptina was at the forefront of on sensor pdaf (it manufactured the sensor for the Nikon V1 which was widely recognized for its af at the time.)

If people can recall Sony's first generation A7 were cdaf only and they introduced hybrid af only in the second generation.

[Cliff Totten]

I had read years ago that Sony also traded pattents with Canon with dual pixel sensor construction for PDAF usage. They got part of Canon's pattent and Canon got Sony's on sensor A/D conversion pattent.

[pbetancourt]

For the very first time in 15 years, I'm considering switching to sony. Canon has done a great effort to loose a loyal client with 8 Canon prime lenses and 3 Canon bodies. I became a film maker thanks to canon 5d mark II. Love the color science. Then Magic Lantern saves Canon to change my camera. Then I was forced to bought a Sony A7s II to get 4k video. Hate the colors, lack of AF, Menu system, battery life, LCD and monitor brightness and sharpness, grip, among many other things. Then canon gave us Canon 5ds with 1080 video, 5d mark IV with 1.7x 4k crop factor and the (new) videoless canon RP, a museum camera than came from the past to the future! 

Now my business partner bought a sony a7r iii ( he already has 4 camera bodies and more than 10 canon lenses) and again I hate color, EVF viewfinder and... that's it. Improved battery life, great AF performance with metabones adapters on Canon glass, better Menu, better LCD monitor. 42 megapixels. 4k full frame video. Two SD slots. In camera stabilizer.

I would pay for being on the head of Canon's marketing guys. I just don't understand them. I WANT a Canon camera, but I WILL need to buy a Sony one, agian.  It's like if Sony had secretly bought Canon and we still don't realize about it.

I wish I have enough money to get an ARRI camera and let these people behind. 

 

[DBounce]

Word on the grapevine is that the Panasonic full frame cameras are a total flop sales wise. This rumor is also supported by taking a quick peek at Amazon's full frame mirrorless cameras sales rankings. The Panasonic S1 and R are nowhere to be seen on the top 100 list. Expect price drops... but even then,  it's a big gamble that Panasonic took by releasing these bodies without PDAF. For most hybrid shooters reliable AF is a "must have" option. 

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, DBounce said:

Word on the grapevine is that the Panasonic full frame cameras are a total flop sales wise. This rumor is also supported by taking a quick peek at Amazon's full frame mirrorless cameras sales rankings. The Panasonic S1 and R are nowhere to be seen on the top 100 list. Expect price drops... but even then,  it's a big gamble that Panasonic took by releasing these bodies without PDAF. For most hybrid shooters reliable AF is a "must have" option. 

I notice the EOS-R you have and the Z6 are not on that list either.  The Sony a7 III was. You aren't going to have many 2,000 Dollar cameras on a top 100 list on Amazon.

[Amazeballs]

Sony is dominating in this list, holding first 8 spots except Canon M50 and further below it is still holds the crown. Wow! Best selling camera from Pani - G85, 9th place. GH5 - only 23rd. I wonder what place S1 is on.. 

But it's not so surprise for me that it have flopped in sales. Fresh mount, very limited expensive lenses, no PDAF. 

[DBounce]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I notice the EOS-R you have and the Z6 are not on that list either.  The Sony a7 III was. You aren't going to have many 2,000 Dollar cameras on a top 100 list on Amazon.

I noticed that you missed that the Canon EOS R is #11 on that list and the Nikon Z6 is #18.

This is Amazon's data... not mine. I'm just a messenger.

[Mako Sports]

Lol I said before it even dropped this system (Panasonic S1/S1R) will not sell with its current pricing.

The only brand thats able to over charge and under value is Canon. 

[DBounce]

1 hour ago, Mako Sports said:

Lol I said before it even dropped this system (Panasonic S1/S1R) will not sell with its current pricing.

The only brand thats able to over charge and under value is Canon. 

Leica ?

[Video Hummus]

1 hour ago, DBounce said:

Leica ?

How dare you.

 

Do many people by $2000 cameras off Amazon. I never have.

[DBounce]

20 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

Do many people by $2000 cameras off Amazon. I never have.

Why not? They have a great return policy and excellent customer service. 

[webrunner5]

10 hours ago, DBounce said:

I noticed that you missed that the Canon EOS R is #11 on that list and the Nikon Z6 is #18.

This is Amazon's data... not mine. I'm just a messenger.

Your top 100 list must be from a year ago. You think thousands of people on Amazon are buying 2000 dollar cameras! I would bet no camera Under 400 bucks is in the minority.

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Digital-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/281052

[DBounce]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Your top 100 list must be from a year ago. You think thousands of people on Amazon are buying 2000 dollar cameras! I would bet no camera Under 400 bucks is in the minority.

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Digital-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/281052

Oh my bad, yes I own Amazon, “my list” is from a year ago, that’s why the EOS R and Nikon Z6 are on there? even though neither camera has been out that long. 

Is it really that hard to believe that the Panasonic S1 is not selling? Did you buy one? I can tell you I know of no one that did.