Blackmagic price drop by a third on Cinema Camera and active mount mFT camera on the way

[tosvus]

I think it is sweet in some twisted way that clearly, people here have an obsession about BMD. Unless you work for one of the big guys, relax and be happy that someone is trying to challenge the status quo. If you are indeed a competitor, relax for a little while at least, as this small company figures out this business..

[Bruno]

One last point. DO YOU REALLY TRUST Black Magic as an enterprise now?  ;) So who wants to bet they'll either be bought out or go belly up  in the camera division? Then you'll be holding a $2,000 doorstop or book-end in three years .

 

If they're bought it doesn't mean it's the end of BMD, and they've been doing just fine even before they had cameras on their product line-up, so I don't see why they'd go broke just like that, especially when offering products in such high demand.

 

Also, even if they did, it's not like all existing cameras would suddenly stop working, is it? How many thousands of films have been shot on long discontinued film cameras?

[Bruno]

That's not what I'm picking up on. Good for the industry is another subject. You said people wouldn't be annoyed if Canon dropped their Cinema EOS prices.

 

I did say that, and they probably wouldn't be annoyed at all, some BMD users would probably even make fun of Canon users.

Also, I wasn't just saying it, I do think their C line-up should have the prices cut to half, then they would probably make some sense.

[Kays Alatrakchi]

I really don't get all the hate. Blackmagic seems to me like a pretty sharp company right about now. They have successfully diverted attention away from the negatives of the shipping delays for their new cameras while renewing interest for a camera which was on the path to be obsolete in a month or two. 

 

Who was buying the BMCC last week instead of the upcoming one? Now several of my friends are thinking about putting in orders for the BMCC....brilliant!

 

Meanwhile the likes of RED and Canon Cinema division are left scratching their heads trying to figure out how to stop the hemorrhaging before it's too late. Who is buying a Scarlet or a C500 right about now aside from rental houses?

 

What Blackmagic has also managed to do is to potentially make ML obsolete as well by pricing the BMCC below the 5D3 (way below if you take into consideration the full version of Resolve that comes bundled with it).

 

Yeah yeah yeah, super 16 is no match for that full frame sensor. Hey, I'm with you, I own a 5D3! However I have seen some fantastic footage come out of the BMCC, with beautiful bokeh and amazing clarity, I know that I could shoot some amazing looking films with that size sensor.

 

Lastly, people who paid $3k for the BMCC aren't likely to be any more mad now than when Blackmagic announced their 4K camera. A lowering of the price was to be absolutely expected, anyone who thought that they would keep selling the BMCC for $3k forever should really wake up.

 

If anything, I can see this really affecting sales of the Pocket camera. I was thinking of buying one when they became available, but now I'm leaning toward the BMCC. Sure it's $1k more, but I get full blown Resolve, a larger sensor with higher resolution, an EF mount if I want, more inputs and outputs, a larger monitor, and already a hefty selection of accessories available to me. Only thing I hate about the BMCC and will always have an issue with is the lack of a swappable battery, but it's a small hassle compared to all the other benefits.

 

I say well played Blackmagic...well played!

[MatthewP]

The price drop of the BMCC mFT creates a dilemma for Pocket Cinema Camera owners – for only an extra $1000 they can get 2.5K raw, a larger sensor area, HD-SDI, balanced audio input, larger screen, the same lens compatibility and the prospect of compressed raw along with other new firmware features which might not be possible on the smaller model

 

Only $1000 more? Dude, it's 2x the price. :lol:

[Kays Alatrakchi]

So? It's still a pretty amazing deal when you factor in all the extras you get.

 

I'll gladly spend an extra $1000 to get the full version of Resolve, not have to deal with getting EF to mFT converters for all my lenses, choice of ProRes and CDNG, more robust recording media, larger screen, higher resolution, larger sensor, balanced audio inputs, better external monitoring options, a field tested device.

 

Not saying that the Pocket camera won't sell, just saying that many of us who were in line to buy one are now leaning toward the BMCC as a pricier but much better alternative.

 

Plus...in a few weeks used BMCC's will start popping up on eBay and CL for $1500 or maybe even less.

[Julien Ramirez Hernan]

Hey Andrew, i wanted to know if the price drop will hit the European market too, because 1995 USD is 1500 Euros but i don't see this price point in any online stores... does anyone know something about that?

[/p/]

One last point. DO YOU REALLY TRUST Black Magic as an enterprise now? ;) So who wants to bet they'll either be bought out or go belly up in the camera division? Then you'll be holding a $2,000 doorstop or book-end in three years .

I just want them to switch sensors to Super 35 or DX. APS-C so I can get the DOF I want. :)

Roll eyes....

I don't think you have any idea BMD works.. They aren't looking to be bought out and they definitely won't go belly up. The BMD cameras are only a small part of their business and have been a respected company for a long long time for other products they make at also highly competative prices.. How do this? By buying other businesses with tech they want and then bribging a highly polished product to market at insanely low prices compared to the competition.

They aren't going anywhere an it's funny how several prople question their business strategy when it's been highly effective for so long.

As for all the whingers about the price drop, while it could be slightly annoying GET OVER IT all rlectronic products devalue.. Maybe not in 1/3 chunks however the 5D2 dropped about $1,000 a year in small increments for 2 years running when I had one. I paid $4000 AUD when it was released 12 months later it was right aroud $3000 and a year after that $2000.

I paid like what $1300 for a GH3 and within only a few months its like $1000. I can only feel for the folks who paid the $3000 and only have just received it within te last few months, that would annoy me too but that's just how it is with ALL electronics whether it hurts your feelings or not.

[/p/]

Oh and comments about them tisking their reputation is laughable. They could literally take a dump in every BMCC box and delay it for another 12 months and while there is still nothig on the market that competes in terms of price and performance people will still buy the cameras aster than they can make them.

I'm responding specifically about how it's so risky they are slightly behind schedule this year too.. I live in a small city in Australia where the market is much much smaller and just 1 of the stores has over 30 pre-orders. Point being only the mightiest of crybabies is actually going to cancel an order for either of the cameras. Not all will actually make the purchase people may change their minds for other reasons but only a small amount will cancel orders due to delays and Grant Petty will still e laughing all the way to the bank regardless.

[EeeCeeGee]

Hey Andrew, i wanted to know if the price drop will hit the European market too, because 1995 USD is 1500 Euros but i don't see this price point in any online stores... does anyone know something about that?

I would like that also. In my hometown I can buy the BMCC for 2799 euro, so no pricedrop yet.

[peederj]

I did say that, and they probably wouldn't be annoyed at all, some BMD users would probably even make fun of Canon users.

Also, I wasn't just saying it, I do think their C line-up should have the prices cut to half, then they would probably make some sense.

 

You do realize, right, that just the IR/ND filter set alone of the C100 would cost you over $2000 in Pancro glass to duplicate in quality for any other camera?

 

http://www.ryanewalters.com/Blog/blog.php?id=6201317295579746489

 

http://blog.abelcine.com/2012/12/10/abelcine-expo-highlight-filters-for-digital-cinema/

 

And would your add-on set be as effortless to access and as beautifully designed, with the IR filter permanently sealing the sensor/ND compartment from dirt and dust?

 

Wait, I know...16 Million colors per pixel simply isn't enough.

 

I really don't get all the hate. 

 

Meanwhile the likes of RED and Canon Cinema division are left scratching their heads trying to figure out how to stop the hemorrhaging before it's too late. Who is buying a Scarlet or a C500 right about now aside from rental houses?

 

What Blackmagic has also managed to do is to potentially make ML obsolete as well by pricing the BMCC below the 5D3 (way below if you take into consideration the full version of Resolve that comes bundled with it).

 

Yeah yeah yeah, super 16 is no match for that full frame sensor.

 

You know you are drowning in "hype" when anyone making vaguely realistic comments are swiftly demonized as "haters."

 

C500 cameras are designed to be rentals, few people in that league would *buy* a camera in the first place. The right tool for the job? C500 would be for 4K low-light work with an external recorder.

 

RED cameras are like red Ferraris...the people who buy them are compensating for something.

 

Yeah yeah yeah, ML is now obsolete.  :unsure: Decisive masterstroke for Petty, dual use be damned.

[ScreensPro]

re: Europe

 

http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.php?t=product/blackmagic_cinema_camera

 

Obviously, we will never get it for $2000 usd, in Europe, but the above has the new pricing.

[richg101]

Not economically viable.  I think the boss of BM is going a bit cloud cuckoo.  if it were a big campaign by Apple (who are able to deliver a product on schedule and in mass) to hit microsoft hard with an almost propaganda style marketing campaign it would make sense, but since these guys don't have the ability to deliver to the market sector they are hitting with this strategy and price point then it's all for nothing.  All they are doing is devaluing products from the established brands (who may be slightly more expensive due to accurate pricing rather than Black Magic low price propaganda).

 

When Canon, Panasonic and Sony, as well as RED, Arri etc start to loose profit due to people haulting planned purchases based on a promise from the bunch of liars at Black Magic it will be the valuable R+D that the big boys are responsible for that starts to suffer.  

 

I cancelled my pre order for the pocket based on a resentment for BM's strategy of forcing people to wait by offering dream pricing figures almost impossible to ignore and that sway decisions on purchases of the products that are actually avaialble to buy and use now.

 

 

[CRFilms]

Not economically viable.  I think the boss of BM is going a bit cloud cuckoo.  .........

 

I cancelled my pre order for the pocket based on a resentment for BM's strategy of forcing people to wait by offering dream pricing figures almost impossible to ignore and that sway decisions on purchases of the products that are actually avaialble to buy and use now.

 

I can vaguely understand your reasoning, but IT IS economically viable what BM is doing.  The guy testing the KineRaw camera in the U.S. said he went to a manufacture(a bit before BM released their cam) and tried to get them to make a dumb body raw camera.  It was just a passive mount, no screen, no viewfinder, basic controls and the standard outputs.  He spec'd it out and said it would cost the manufacture $300 USD to make.  $300.  They wouldn't do it and/or wanted a huge amount down to prototype.  Then GoPro releases a camera capable of 2.7k and limited 4k for $400.   Again, basic body, no screen, limited features, etc...$400. 

 

So $300 for basic hardware, plus touch screen, lens electronics, metal body, etc....  I would bet, it costs BM between $1000-1500 to produce a Cinema Camera max, and that was at the start.  Now, it's even cheaper like they said, so selling it for $2000 means they're still in the black.

 

When you look at what the GH1, then GH2, then Canon was capable of doing with the hacks, it's obvious the companies are selling hardware that's artificially limited for one reason or another.  Biggest reason, IMHO is they don't want to give us what the camera's are fully capable of at the lower price so it won't compete with their Pro, higher priced models.  Since these are the only camera's BM makes, they don't have that problem and can give us the max hardware for the minimum price, and still make a profit.

[Andrew Reid]

So $300 for basic hardware, plus touch screen, lens electronics, metal body, etc....  I would bet, it costs BM between $1000-1500 to produce a Cinema Camera max, and that was at the start.  Now, it's even cheaper like they said, so selling it for $2000 means they're still in the black.

 

Hmm. You forgot to add staff wages, marketing, taxes, a cut for the dealer, shipping costs, firmware development, R&D, fluctuations in raw material prices and the low shipping volumes.

 

I think they are doing another bait and switch.

 

mFT BMCC was one of those. QUICK put a passive mFT mount on it! Too many people on our BMCC EF waiting list!

 

Like with the mFT version it could be some time before 10,000 people get to own a $1995 BMCC.

 

A Blackmagic rep recently hinted at 20,000 Pocket camera orders.

 

Good luck filling those at 100 a month!

[tony wilson]

eyes is gonna wait for the 1000 dollah reduck tion on der black magic pocket camera next year after they anonce the new pocket replacement for der old pocket camera dat came out 2 days before the annocement of the new pocket camera.
how can you complain wid next years pocket reducktion they will be paying you a dollar to take the camera from them that has to be a good deal yes no.

dis company are firing on all sillinders at der moment.
nobody beats dere melting sensorers.
der owner of der company is not overweight he is thin and allways keeps his custumers up to date wid intel on new up and coming products

avaiuuble n 2 years time.

 

as budda once said grass hopper nice obsolete things come to those peeple dat wait

stop der hate it nevver been betteror time to make test films of traffic.
chill and sing the bm corporate song

 

 

remememberor kids hd camras come and go a ducky is for life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc5T06SsnkA

[CRFilms]

Bait and switch, to what?  

 

How is their R&D different from other companies who make raw?  We're not talking about a completely new recording process.  DNG has been around since 2004, BM didn't invent it.  This is off the shelf technology, BM just put it in one box at a price that properly reflects the hardware used.  

 

Then don't forget Moore's Law.  For those who don't know, Moore's Law basically says every 18 months computer power doubles at the same price or the cost of current computer power drops in half.  BM is the only company that really gets that and is pricing their products accordingly.  

 

I firmly believe they're making money and even IF, IF they're not and are breaking even or using the cam as a loss leader...I'm not complaining.  ^_^ Only thing BM really has to worry about is GoPro, if they can make a 2.7k camera for $400...what can they make for $1000?

[Andrew Reid]

Let's see if all the happy sounding punters come back in 12 months on the forum when they still don't have a camera. Then we will see how they really feel.

[zephyrnoid]

Not economically viable.  I think the boss of BM is going a bit cloud cuckoo.  if it were a big campaign by Apple (who are able to deliver a product on schedule and in mass) to hit microsoft hard with an almost propaganda style marketing campaign it would make sense, but since these guys don't have the ability to deliver to the market sector they are hitting with this strategy and price point then it's all for nothing.  All they are doing is devaluing products from the established brands (who may be slightly more expensive due to accurate pricing rather than Black Magic low price propaganda).

 

When Canon, Panasonic and Sony, as well as RED, Arri etc start to loose profit due to people haulting planned purchases based on a promise from the bunch of liars at Black Magic it will be the valuable R+D that the big boys are responsible for that starts to suffer.  

 

I cancelled my pre order for the pocket based on a resentment for BM's strategy of forcing people to wait by offering dream pricing figures almost impossible to ignore and that sway decisions on purchases of the products that are actually avaialble to buy and use now.

---------------------------

HOW many times have I seen this story?

 

_Once upon a time, there was a company called Silicon Graphics, they sold the most renegade, expensive and dongled Video Editing suites in the business.
I had the priviledge of learning and operating FLAME on SGI's. Then, Apple came up from behind and announced the Power PC chip, which not quite at 500MIPS was still a worthy entry point DV editing platform. SGI is no more.
I suspect that BMCC and to an extent, RED are the SGI's of thw 21st Century.

"Boutique-ware" gone amuk
...and the faithful proclaimed them as mana from the heavens ;)
 

[zephyrnoid]

Bait and switch, to what?  

 

How is their R&D different from other companies who make raw?  We're not talking about a completely new recording process.  DNG has been around since 2004, BM didn't invent it.  This is off the shelf technology, BM just put it in one box at a price that properly reflects the hardware used.  

 

Then don't forget Moore's Law.  For those who don't know, Moore's Law basically says every 18 months computer power doubles at the same price or the cost of current computer power drops in half.  BM is the only company that really gets that and is pricing their products accordingly.  

 

I firmly believe they're making money and even IF, IF they're not and are breaking even or using the cam as a loss leader...I'm not complaining.   ^_^ Only thing BM really has to worry about is GoPro, if they can make a 2.7k camera for $400...what can they make for $1000?

Sorry. "a price that properly reflects the hardware used." ?
They fooled everyone into thinking that a replication of zero-cost software,  Davinci Resolve, a "1000 dollar value bundled with your preorder if only you call the number on your screen and pay....." was icing on the cake. It was and is disingenuous marketing hype.
Or as I teach my kids...." Full price is inflated markup, Clearance prices are a profit and salvage is about fairness"
:D