Made In China vs Made In Japan - Perception Of Quality

[Django]

19 hours ago, DBounce said:

NONE of the flagship cameras from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic or Fuji are produced in China.

 

This is simply untrue. Almost all Sony cams are made in China, A9 is made in Thailand. Nikon D850 is made in Thailand. Panasonic GH5, S1 etc made in China.

Fuji XT3: made in China. Previous XT series were made in Japan. big quality control drop and a lot of issues on the MiC XT3.

Only Canon still makes a large part of their cams in Japan, including the affordable EOS RP.

Nikon did produce the Z series in their Sendai factory which hardly produced any cameras except for D5 & DF. So kudos to them!

[DBounce]

1 hour ago, Django said:

This is simply untrue. Almost all Sony cams are made in China, A9 is made in Thailand. Nikon D850 is made in Thailand. Panasonic GH5, S1 etc made in China.

Fuji XT3: made in China. Previous XT series were made in Japan. big quality control drop and a lot of issues on the MiC XT3.

Only Canon still makes a large part of their cams in Japan, including the affordable EOS RP.

Nikon did produce the Z series in their Sendai factory which hardly produced any cameras except for D5 & DF. So kudos to them!

Thailand China? Wait, what? X-T3 is a flagship camera? Ya think? Got rid of my Panasonics awhile ago,  so I can't check. I do recall seeing made in Japan... but perhaps that was the lenses. Not that those are flagships at this point. Nonetheless, I'm pretty certain the S1 is also made in China. So perhaps Panasonic is the exception. That said I had no issues with my Panasonics... so they would be one of the hits... X-T3 more of a miss in my experience. 

[Andrew Reid]

22 hours ago, DBounce said:

Let me help... Chinese made car vs Japanese car... same money... Pick?

I’m really not sure what has happened that so few are willing to speak the truth. It’s quite pathetic honestly.

I detect a lot of anti-Chinese bias!

It's reasonable enough to raise the topic but save us the old "China makes junk" cliche, it's no longer as simple.

China is a developing economy and all countries go through eras of churning out cheap products during this phase. Japan did it. Even the US did it to some degree, but in a very different technological era. Looking at the camera companies - Sigma did it - made very cheap lenses in huge quantities for a LONG time before they started to do the high-end quality stuff we all respect so highly.

What is going on at the moment is Chinese home-grown technology is cost competitive and technologically becoming on an even par with western stuff, so that combination makes it a huge threat to US businesses like Intel and Qualcomm. There are political reasons for smearing Huawei.

There is also a distinction between IP, design and assembly / manufacturing. Most of China's developing economy has been based on assembly and manufacturing but now they are becoming big on original designs and products, which is another threat to the US economy. Especially in chip design and telecoms.

As for quality, perceptions and stereotypes always vary... You're entitled to your views. I find them outdated. RED cameras and iPhones are hardly poorly put together products - both made in China. Foxconn. No doubt if they had been made in an American factory by American hands you'd think they were better made, but that says more about prejudiced opinion than the actual facts or the skills level of the Chinese workforce. Across Asia there are a lot of people highly educated and dedicated to their work otherwise they wouldn't do the things they are doing. And Chinese space programme is another flagship advancement, whether we can agree on their politics or not, the writing is on the wall. The US is no longer top dog.

"There will be nobody left in China to do business with. Very bad for China, very good for USA!"

---

Of course when you have this twat starting trade wars, you're bound to get people whipped up into a sinophobic frenzy.

Let's look at the facts.

It's hard to imagine a President so out of touch with US businesses, who have benefited massively from cheap Chinese labour and manufacturing.

There isn't a single major US technology or camera company around today that doesn't need Chinese manufacturing or parts supply.

And yet Trump thinks attacking that is very good for the USA, because he has a simple world view - "we can make stuff here... it's easy... just build a factory"...

For a start, if you look at the quantities of natural resources, rare metals and energy required to make mass produce fundamental parts for modern technological devices and appliances, the US doesn't have any of it easily to hand like China does and digging them up at the scale required would cause massive pollution right on your doorstep. Is that would you want?

If smartphones were all made in the US they would cost 10x more at retail and wouldn't sell a single unit vs cost effective competitors.

The technology doesn't even exist at the required scale in the US to build the stuff, like it does in China, Japan and South Korea. We're talking here about the machines that make machines. Vast majority of the equipment is Asian.

We are talking vast scale of manufacturing, where a single factory is the size of a small city and employees over 1 million people. Add up the cost of those people with US wages vs doing the same thing in China and you start to realise what a fucking amateur Trump is when it comes to business and why he has made enormous losses and write-offs in every one of his business ventures.

[DBounce]

@Andrew Reid there you go getting all political. I’ll address that later. As for quality goods being made in China, I pointed out at least two examples... Aputure and IPhone. I could add DJI and maybe a few more. But that doesn’t change the fact that QC leaves much room for improvement in China. 

In this post my initial question was one of the overall quality of goods. I can’t think of any Chinese original lenses that rival Zeiss or Leica. But yet some here seem to take this loyalty to China as a cause. Why? Did they forget that The Peoples Republic of China is a communist state, not a democracy? Did they overlook the overwhelming reports of human rights abuses? Do they believe this is all made up? Perhaps they do not realize that all advancements made by outside companies are mandated to be shared with the Chinese military first? Or that when it comes to IP in China, it’s not merely a case of single employee stealing technology, but in fact the government has entire departments devoted to stealing IP from  outside companies.

The West rewarded The People’s Republic of China with lucrative trade deals in hopes they would become a democracy (the opposite of what was successfully done with the USSR)... Update... it didn’t work. The People’s Republic of China is still communist. Indeed one of the reasons manufacturing is so cheap in China is because they are perfectly ok with exposing the population and workforce to hazardous chemicals and pollutants. Go China... yeah!

[Mokara]

19 hours ago, DBounce said:

Your example make no sense. I merely ask which statement more closely reflects the subject’s view. 

And btw... you still haven’t answered. 

So like I said, there are some higher quality exceptions... but lots of crap also. iPhone is made in China... Aputure makes great lights... and I pointed out that high quality products can be made anywhere... but Chinese quality is often hit or miss. 

The difference is QC. Items made for the foreign market often have high QC standards imposed by the foreign company ordering components (they may return the product if it fails, so make sure it does not fail). If you buy the same item locally, well, short cuts may have been made and you are just not told about it. No doubt that will change over time, but right now that is how it is in China. The consequences for poor QC locally are not that great, but are significant in foreign markets with high expectations, so you may see a range in reliability even with things that are superficially the same depending on where exactly you buy the product.

There is a difference between how things are done in Japan and China, and it is largely due to local culture. In Japan there is an extreme expectation for quality, especially when it comes to appearances, and their industry is shaped around that. This is a double edged sword, and while QC may be excellent, it can lead to tunnel vision with respect to deeper problems. In China it is more a case of making things as cheaply as possible because competition is so fierce. Protections for things like IP are weak and sporadically (if at all) enforced, so you can't rely on that to keep the competition at bay. The only thing that works is to reduce costs as much as possible, and with that comes cutting corners and a lower level of QC. Until such time as China gets proper regulatory mechanisms in place, and actually enforces them, that is not going to change.

5 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

IIt's hard to imagine a President so out of touch with US businesses, who have benefited massively from cheap Chinese labour and manufacturing.

There isn't a single major US technology or camera company around today that doesn't need Chinese manufacturing or parts supply.

And yet Trump thinks attacking that is very good for the USA, because he has a simple world view - "we can make stuff here... it's easy... just build a factory"...

For a start, if you look at the quantities of natural resources, rare metals and energy required to make mass produce fundamental parts for modern technological devices and appliances, the US doesn't have any of it easily to hand like China does and digging them up at the scale required would cause massive pollution right on your doorstep. Is that would you want?

If smartphones were all made in the US they would cost 10x more at retail and wouldn't sell a single unit vs cost effective competitors.

The technology doesn't even exist at the required scale in the US to build the stuff, like it does in China, Japan and South Korea. We're talking here about the machines that make machines. Vast majority of the equipment is Asian.

We are talking vast scale of manufacturing, where a single factory is the size of a small city and employees over 1 million people. Add up the cost of those people with US wages vs doing the same thing in China and you start to realise what a fucking amateur Trump is when it comes to business and why he has made enormous losses and write-offs in every one of his business ventures.

This is a quote from a response to Andrew, but the board does not like editing it seems.

Anyway, Trump, the problem with him as a "businessman" is that he is not really, not when it comes to manufacturing. He is a real estate developer (other people actually do the building, he contracts them to do it while he finds suckers, err, customers, to buy the resultant units) and a "brand" salesman. That is how he makes his money. He knows absolutely nothing about manufacturing. The "business" people around him in cabinet for the most part don't know either, they are largely from the financial services sector. When these people talk about manufacturing and global supply chains, they are mostly talking out their ass, they have no practical experience.

[Andrew Reid]

5 hours ago, DBounce said:

@Andrew Reid there you go getting all political. I’ll address that later. As for quality goods being made in China, I pointed out at least two examples... Aputure and IPhone. I could add DJI and maybe a few more. But that doesn’t change the fact that QC leaves much room for improvement in China. 

In this post my initial question was one of the overall quality of goods. I can’t think of any Chinese original lenses that rival Zeiss or Leica. But yet some here seem to take this loyalty to China as a cause. Why? Did they forget that The Peoples Republic of China is a communist state, not a democracy? Did they overlook the overwhelming reports of human rights abuses? Do they believe this is all made up? Perhaps they do not realize that all advancements made by outside companies are mandated to be shared with the Chinese military first? Or that when it comes to IP in China, it’s not merely a case of single employee stealing technology, but in fact the government has entire departments devoted to stealing IP from  outside companies.

The West rewarded The People’s Republic of China with lucrative trade deals in hopes they would become a democracy (the opposite of what was successfully done with the USSR)... Update... it didn’t work. The People’s Republic of China is still communist. Indeed one of the reasons manufacturing is so cheap in China is because they are perfectly ok with exposing the population and workforce to hazardous chemicals and pollutants. Go China... yeah!

Blah blah blah. Somebody's been watching the news! Somebody has probably been listening to Trump as well, blabber on about how dreadful the Chinese are. Well you make a political post, you get a political response.

Or somebody showing you the facts on why they're wrong about Chinese manufacturing.

Given time they will not just match Zeiss or Leica for lenses but surpass.

Even this early in the life of the lens manufacturers, they are doing quality items. You infer they are not, and that the whole country is basically evil.

Look at the images from this and tell me it isn't worth $700.

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-zhong-yi-mitakon-50mm-0-95-iii/

Or put your money where your mouth is and pay Leica prices.

And just because I am pointing out to you some facts, doesn't mean to say I am suddenly a communist.

Sure, the Chinese government is not a democracy. I hardly think a two party system like we have in the US and the UK is really all that much of a democracy either, but that's a separate discussion for another forum... And sure, criticise the Chinese companies for 'exposing their workforce to pollutants' but I don't see very much what this has to do with a camera forum... You started the topic based on quality of their technology, not the quality of their environment.

Trump is running scared from China, and clearly sees their advancements as a threat to various underperforming US blue chip companies.

I see this belief and fear is starting to take hold in some of the public as well.

[DBounce]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Look at the images from this and tell me it isn't worth $700.

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-zhong-yi-mitakon-50mm-0-95-iii/

Or put your money where your mouth is and pay Leica prices.

Seriously, did you look at the hexagonal bokeh of this lens? 

How about edge sharpness, which doesn’t actually get anywhere near sharp until stopped down to F5.6?

Flare resistance? Or should I say lack of?

Longitudinal CA is also an issue with this lens... and is not so easy to correct in post.

I think all this example proves is that the Chinese lens offers an impressive sounding spec sheet (50mm F 0.95) but falls short on optical performance. So hence the lower price point. Compare this to the ZEISS Loxia 50mm f/2, which is fully weather sealed, usable F2, electronics for  Exif data to camera, user de-clickable with a 3 year warranty (vs 1 year ) for only $949 brand new, and I would say only a fool would opt for the Chinese lens. But that’s just my take.

 

[Mokara]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Blah blah blah. Somebody's been watching the news! Somebody has probably been listening to Trump as well, blabber on about how dreadful the Chinese are. Well you make a political post, you get a political response.

Or somebody showing you the facts on why they're wrong about Chinese manufacturing.

Given time they will not just match Zeiss or Leica for lenses but surpass.

Even this early in the life of the lens manufacturers, they are doing quality items. You infer they are not, and that the whole country is basically evil.

Look at the images from this and tell me it isn't worth $700.

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-zhong-yi-mitakon-50mm-0-95-iii/

Or put your money where your mouth is and pay Leica prices.

And just because I am pointing out to you some facts, doesn't mean to say I am suddenly a communist.

Sure, the Chinese government is not a democracy. I hardly think a two party system like we have in the US and the UK is really all that much of a democracy either, but that's a separate discussion for another forum... And sure, criticise the Chinese companies for 'exposing their workforce to pollutants' but I don't see very much what this has to do with a camera forum... You started the topic based on quality of their technology, not the quality of their environment.

Trump is running scared from China, and clearly sees their advancements as a threat to various underperforming US blue chip companies.

I see this belief and fear is starting to take hold in some of the public as well.

It has nothing to do with politics. It is just how business operates in China and Japan at the moment. If you do business in either of those countries, you ignore the local culture at your peril, you will make life much more difficult for yourself if you do. Whenever you deal with offshore suppliers you need to understand how things work there, and what you need to do to manage the relationship in a constructive way. Just assuming that everything will be the way you would do it and when you want it is going to lead to you getting burned.

That is not to say that things can't be different, but until there is some fundamental change in the philosophy in those countries, things will be as they are now perceived. Good and poor quality in manufacturing do not happen in isolation, they reflect the current priorities within those societies in general.

[IronFilm]

On 5/13/2019 at 4:10 AM, DBounce said:

Let me help... Chinese made car vs Japanese car... same money... Pick?

https://www.ldv.co.nz/new-vehicles/v80-biggest.html

https://www.toyota.co.nz/new-car/hiace/hiace-zl-glass-van-diesel-manual-2-seat/?skuCode=HIACE-KDMW-NM1-058-13

Two vans which are the same price (well ok, the Japanese one is $1K more, but I'll ignore that), I'll take the chinese made one thank you very much. 

 

On 5/13/2019 at 11:18 AM, kye said:

In terms of the premise of your original multiple choice question, here's a question of my own:

1. The question is inherently racially biased and there is no way to answer it without accepting the premise and is therefore "a trap"
2. The question is inherently logically skewed and there is no way to answer it without accepting the premise and is therefore "a trap"

Pick one.

That was a (please pick one):

1. Top class analogy
2. The best analogy

[IronFilm]

On 5/13/2019 at 12:27 PM, newfoundmass said:

My view of Chinese gear has changed significantly over the last ten and even five years. Ten years ago it very much was "well, you get what you paid for." Things were cheaply made and would often fall apart. 

That started to change around five years ago. It was around then that you really started to see high quality stuff coming out of Japan. I think you can kinda of trace the change with the quality of GoPro knock offs, because those were the first things I really noticed people giving positive feedback on. The first ones were garbage, but around 2014/2015 you started to hear about Yi and SJCAM putting out good quality ones. Also around that time you started to see lights coming out of China that were comparable to much more expensive lighting, and then the flood gates kinda opened with quality budget options for everything from mics to gimbals. 

In many ways it has killed the DIY filmmaking scene. I remember when people would carry around DIY light set ups to shoots; they'd go all out trying to make them look as professional as possible. Now everyone has affordable Chinese lights. It's kinda sad, cause the DIY era was the most fun era for me. But it's hard to justify spending hours building a light panel when you can buy some that cost less than the parts you'd need to make your own. 

 Seems cameras and lenses are the next phase. That first Z-Cam wasn't particularly impressive, but the second one and their cinema cameras are.

Not just DIY lights. 

Who'd do a DIY shoulder rig from PVC today?
Or a DIY follow focus?
Or a DIY gimbal?
Or a DIY boom pole?
Etc...

For 90% of people on a budget, just getting a reasonable quality Chinese one is a better idea. 

 

On 5/13/2019 at 12:35 PM, DBounce said:

Your example make no sense. I merely ask which statement more closely reflects the subject’s view. 

Which statement more closely reflects your views, everyone is:

1. A murderer
2. A mass murderer

Pick one. 

 

 

[leslie]

On 5/13/2019 at 6:20 AM, DBounce said:

I might be way off mark, but where I live no one is impressed when you explain that you drive an Hyundai. For some reason Porsche carries more prestige. 

A :    if i could afford it.  At my age i don't care so much about prestige. thinking about it,  that much prestige even second hand, could buy me a ton of lenses but i guess it comes back to priorities ?btw i drive a secondhand proton jumbuck probably ranks lower than every thing else on the previous list. Actually it was voted unsafest car of the year some time ago. lucky i drive pretty safely.? kinda sad i wont be setting any land speed records, well not in the jumbuck anyway because a land speed record in 4k braw would be awesome.?

[IronFilm]

15 hours ago, DBounce said:

Thailand China?

Thailand is the new China!

Some manufacturing is moving away from China, as China develops and becomes "too expensive".

 

[newfoundmass]

13 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Not just DIY lights. 

Who'd do a DIY shoulder rig from PVC today?
Or a DIY follow focus?
Or a DIY gimbal?
Or a DIY boom pole?
Etc...

For 90% of people on a budget, just getting a reasonable quality Chinese one is a better idea. 

 

Which statement more closely reflects your views, everyone is:

1. A murderer
2. A mass murderer

Pick one. 

 

 

I actually still use a DIY boom pole! ?

[Andrew Reid]

17 hours ago, DBounce said:

I think all this example proves is that the Chinese lens offers an impressive sounding spec sheet (50mm F 0.95) but falls short on optical performance. So hence the lower price point. Compare this to the ZEISS Loxia 50mm f/2, which is fully weather sealed, usable F2, electronics for  Exif data to camera, user de-clickable with a 3 year warranty (vs 1 year ) for only $949 brand new, and I would say only a fool would opt for the Chinese lens. But that’s just my take.

$949 for a manual focus 50mm F2? Not exactly an outstanding bargain or a unique lens optically.

Maybe put a nice 35mm F1.4 on a Fuji X-T3 or X-T30 instead.

Both made in China!

[anonim]

 

[newfoundmass]

On 5/13/2019 at 1:01 PM, DBounce said:

The West rewarded The People’s Republic of China with lucrative trade deals in hopes they would become a democracy (the opposite of what was successfully done with the USSR)... Update... it didn’t work. The People’s Republic of China is still communist. Indeed one of the reasons manufacturing is so cheap in China is because they are perfectly ok with exposing the population and workforce to hazardous chemicals and pollutants. Go China... yeah!

The West never had any delusions that China would become a democracy, the West "rewarded" China to further drive a wedge between it and the USSR and to fuel the West's economic growth. 

China's environmental policy and labor laws are poor and worth criticizing, but they are hardly the only country that knowingly exposes their population and workforce to hazardous materials and pollutants; The United States has been doing it for a hundred years. Heck Trump and his cronies have been trying to roll back environmental protections all while paying lip service to the coal industry. Go look up the health issues coal miners deal with, it isn't pleasant. 

 

14 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Thailand is the new China!

Some manufacturing is moving away from China, as China develops and becomes "too expensive".

 

Indeed, for that reason and to try and counter China's growth and influence. The West is hoping to make India a counter balance to China, particularly in the tech sector, while a lot of manufacturing moves to Thailand, Vietnam and other Asian countries.