the best compromise today?

[Dan Wake]

hello to anyone, considering also hack firmware, and Vaf filters or any other solution. wich is today the best solution for shooting video with: no aliasing/moire and very good night shooting? today there is another factor wich is RAW, this also could be considerate for the answer please. 

 

thanks for your advices have a nice weekend! :)

 

p.s. another factor that could be considerated is 2K resolution.

[Zach]

what exactly are you shooting at night. Short films? Documentaries? Cats?

 

C100 is a great option for night shooting and no aliasing. 5D is also great at those and the raw hack is available. 

 

Blackmagic is not great in low light, and has a bit of moire here and there

[Dan Wake]

what exactly are you shooting at night. Short films? Documentaries? Cats?

 

C100 is a great option for night shooting and no aliasing. 5D is also great at those and the raw hack is available. 

 

Blackmagic is not great in low light, and has a bit of moire here and there

 

thaks for options but the C100 is so much expensive for me today, and even the 5D unfortunately.

 

is there no option under the 5DMIII price? :)

 

In this moment I'm editing a video that I did with a 550D. The major issues that I can see and I'm not able to correct is aliasing. Is very bad. In the background of the set, behind actors, there is a very large cloth. that coth is the fair of the Aliasing. I can see rainbow floating over the cloth surface and forming big colored waves. 

 

I do not want to shoot around having fear of "evil cloths"

 

Open only if you are +18

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

 

I want to feel free if I shoot during day or night without thinking about what people dress. what cloth is in background in a theater set. etc, etc...

 

for example last month we made ​​a short film with a 7d. in a scene of the movie there was a book placed on a desk. the book shown a very colorful aliasing.

 

 

I need to shoot for narrative (I study to be a cinema director/sound designer), docs, and even for reward work (that can be done in the evening and duing the night). I'm starting now to be honest, but I wish to have a camera that can be mine without the need to be replaced by another camera very soon.

 

 

p.s.

 

does exist some plug in for premiere that fix aliasing? 

 

thanks for help! :)

[Zach]

 

 

does exist some plug in for premiere that fix aliasing? 

 

 

Sadly no! 

 

You'll probably want to look at either the Nikon d5200 or the Panasonic GH3. Tons of reviews of those on this site. 

[Dan Wake]

Sadly no! 

 

You'll probably want to look at either the Nikon d5200 or the Panasonic GH3. Tons of reviews of those on this site. 

 

Nilon D5200 have no manual white balance and I need it. 

GH3 is a little mistery for me. Does it have fine white balance regulation? I do not like that is not APS-C because of the crop factor. Does it have hack firmware and RAW shooting? Is good at high ISO during night videos?

Also it is expansive and it feels bad that the Black Magic Pocket Camera is much more affordable.

About the Black Magic Pocket Camera I asked about aliasing and this guy (who made the video) said that have some of it.

 

 

 

[spoiler]

I asked here:

 

Me: @A Couple Of Night Owls, does this camera suffer from moire and aliasing issues? It's very important for my job to have no aliasing. I mean this effect: nofilmschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/5daliasing1.jpg

thanks for help! :)

A Couple Of Night Owls PLUS

4 days ago

You will get those problems on certain objects shot at certain distances, yes. How 'bad' it is compared to other cameras i haven't really tested sorry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Source is trough the comments of this video

 

https://vimeo.com/70676876

 

 

[/spoiler]

 

Thanks.

 

p.s.

 

What about Canon 50D + Magic Lantern? Is true that with ML have no moire and aliasing at all? I know that have no audio recording, but that would not be a problem. At the moment I have a Zoom H4n. 

Thanks again for help. This is my very last ace in the hole at the moment! 

[Jon de Zwaan]

I wouldn't use a 50D as my A cam, it's probably fun to experiment with, but far too limited as a dedicated video camera. My advice would be a GH3 with speedbooster and the sigma 18-35mm f1.8 as a versatile low light zoom lens. The Panny 12-35mm f2.8 and 35-100mm f2.8 can suffer from moiré and aliasing, probably because of the in camera lens correction.
The GH3 won't shoot raw, but has a very decent All-I codec without a hack and who knows what if it gets hacked.
A Pocket Cinema Camera with Speedbooster could be a viable option as well.

With the speedbooster, you won't have to worry about sensor size or lowlight shooting. Both options will cost slightly above $2000 including the sigma lens.

[Zach]

Why do you need raw?

[Dan Wake]

Why do you need raw?

 

If it's true, but I do not know for sure, raw gives less overexposure thanks something like a high dynamic range of curves (but I do not know well what it is and how it works exactly). Is it like that? And If I I have understand well, gives less artifacts in post production during color grading. 

What I really need is no aliasing at all. This morning I woke up ad I've seen the final work of my new rendering processed done during the night, and aliasing is very high in my new work (that cloth...). I have done my job with Denoiser II (fine settings chrome offsets), and with color grading (saturation is almost zero). But it still there, and heavy. I do not know plug ins done only for that problem, do they exist?

 

Thanks again for help! :) 

[Andrew Reid]

How much footage do you plan to shoot? Raw is 12 minutes per 64GB card, so you will need to be apt at dealing with the data and have time for the workflow.

 

However the cameras that do raw in your price range all have moire (50D, 7D, Blackmagic).

 

If you already have a 7D, raw is worth experimenting with. Big leap in image quality over the factory settings, and the moire is much less severe, but if you need no moire at all then the GH2 or G6 are the best options and significantly cheaper than other cameras.

 

The GH3 has hardly any moire but still slightly more than the GH2 and G6. The sensor downsampling creates moire but the use a low pass filter on the output to minimise it. It has less aliasing than the GH2 and G6.

 

What lenses do you plan to use?

[Julian]

Panasonic G6 would be a perfect replacement for a 550D imho.

Cheap, no moire. 1080p60, peaking, possibility to use cheap old lenses and / or a speed booster. 

[andy lee]

g6 is superb

[Paulio]

G6 or a GH3. 

[Dan Wake]

How much footage do you plan to shoot? Raw is 12 minutes per 64GB card, so you will need to be apt at dealing with the data and have time for the workflow.

 

However the cameras that do raw in your price range all have moire (50D, 7D, Blackmagic).

 

If you already have a 7D, raw is worth experimenting with. Big leap in image quality over the factory settings, and the moire is much less severe, but if you need no moire at all then the GH2 or G6 are the best options and significantly cheaper than other cameras.

 

The GH3 has hardly any moire but still slightly more than the GH2 and G6. The sensor downsampling creates moire but the use a low pass filter on the output to minimise it. It has less aliasing than the GH2 and G6.

 

What lenses do you plan to use?

 

I should use it also for cinema. For the lenses I do not know very well (maybe samyang 35 when I will have enough money :) ). 

 

Can I ask to you please if eventually my PC could be ok to operate in RAW with a Canon camera (with ML) or with a Black Magic one?

 

I have a notebook with i5 2,53 GHz

GPU is ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5650 so no CUDA for me

 

4 GB DDR3

USB 2.0

External HDD 500gb (USB 3.0 but my PC read it at 2.0)

 

I can buy a 2 tera HDD if needed. 

 

 

I really wish the best video quality, and take all the time that I need from one "take" to another. :) I really wish to work without the timer cowntdown behind my neck.

 

For other works that needs speed of time like video improvisations in artistic performances I wish to use the native codec of the DSLR. They can be 30 mitues/more long and I cannot stop the performance to save/transfer the data in my PC.

 

Thanks for help Eos! :)

 

p.s. 7D and 550D were not mine. I have not bought a personal camera yet. 

[Paulio]

Editing raw footage with 4gb of ram will be interesting. You should be able to cache a couple of frames at time.

[Dan Wake]

Editing raw footage with 4gb of ram will be interesting. You should be able to cache a couple of frames at time.

 

how much ram do I need to make it works good? thanks :)

[Damphousse]

I really wish the best video quality, and take all the time that I need from one "take" to another. :) I really wish to work without the timer cowntdown behind my neck.

 

For other works that needs speed of time like video improvisations in artistic performances I wish to use the native codec of the DSLR. They can be 30 mitues/more long and I cannot stop the performance to save/transfer the data in my PC.

 

Hi I'm a video noob and recently upgraded my DSLR.

 

I don't know if you mentioned your exact budget already.  Less than 5D Mk III covers a lot of territory and you didn't specify how much you had to spend on other stuff.

 

I'm glad you brought up Mosaic Engineering's VAF-XTi filter.  I'm surprised it didn't get more treatment in this thread considering it as an EOS forum.  This filter looks like it is going to be my next purchase.  I live in America and recently there were a couple of sales on refurbised Canon 600D/T3i's.  A bunch of people got in on a deal for a 600D from canon with kit lens for $400.  I got mine from somewhere else for $450 shipped.  I didn't know about the Canon deal and by the time Canon charges me sales tax the price difference was less than $20.

 

I sold the kit less for $100.  So I got the T3i for $350.  When picking a Canon camera you need to see which body has the most developed version of Magic Lantern.  The T3i does really well in that regard.  It also has a fold out screen.  As far as sensors are concerned it has the same sensor as the 7D, 60D, T2i, T4i... and maybe others.  So image quality in general is not going to be markedly different between the models.  Some may be able to have a bit better RAW performance because the bottleneck for RAW is the SD card control write speed (I believe).

 

So you take $350 and spend another $295 on a VAF-TXi and now you are at $645.  Put ML on that for free or a small donation and you have a very usable camera for less than $650.  That's HALF the price of the GH3.  Interestingly the Panasonic Lumix DMC-G6 KIT is only $100 more than the T3i refurb body... assuming you can find the G6 in stock.

 

 

Advantages

APS-C

Narrow DoF

Good Low light performance

Minimal Moire Aliasing with VAF-TXi

Fantastic photo mode

Swivel Screen

Optical view finder for photo

 

Disadvantages

Have to remove VAF-TXi to use photo mode

VAF-TXi doesn't work in 720p 60 fps mode

No practical raw

CODEC is poo poo

 

People have made some impressive movies with the sensor in the T3i.  I'm not sure how they have done it.  I suppose if you limited DoF and are cognisant of every piece of cloth and brick wall you can make it happen but who has the time for that?  The Panasonic G-6 is interesting but I find myself constantly wishing I could go wider on my 600D.  With the 3x zoom on the 600D images look good even without the VAF-TXi so going long isn't an issue.  For me I couldn't imagine going in the other direction.  You'll see when you start looking fo lenses.  It's a lot easier to get a solid fully auto 50mm lens for a full frame than something with the same field of view for a Micro Four Thirds body.

 

So the end result is you have to pick your poison.  You are making compromises with any camera body.  You just have to decided whch compromises you can live with.  The images out of the Panasonics are very impressive.  But you have to decide whether you can live with micro four thirds.

 

RAW... don't know what to say here.  I think eveyrone was being charitable and beating around the bush.  RAW requires tons of resources.  If you have an i5 notebook with 4 gbs of RAM your life is going to be painful for editing and rendering prores let allow RAW.

 

Anyway it sounds like you were happy with the 550 besides moire/aliasing.  I would just get the 600 and VAF-TXi and forget about RAW.  My 2 cents.

[Dan Wake]

Yes the wish "I wish to go wider" could be a problem also for me! :) I really do not know what to do. Actually the olny voice I trust is "spend very little money". 

 

Is the 3x zoom of the 600D really usable for quality? Does it have more noise or something like this?

 

 

Also the VAF. $295 wow. it's very expensive. Today I can find a 550D body for about 200 euros (rare but it's a possibility). It's more than the camera.

 

 

The best solution would be a nice tutorial. A nice tutorial to learn about removing aliasing with some kind of special technique, for example some kind of advanced masking, I do not know. Do you belive guys would be possible with some artifice? I'll try some experiment with my 550D footage.... I have some idea. I need to see if it works. I need to use After Effects. I promise, if I'll be successful I'll do a little tutorial! :)

 

 

 

Guys, what about my PC? could it run RAW video with some fix (ram for example)? Thanks! :)

[Damphousse]

Dan Wake,

 

I am no optics expert but I will try to explain to you my understanding of the moiré/aliasing/filter situation.  Virtually all DSLRs have always had some type of anti-aliasing filter built in.  But they are specifically designed for the sensors regular pixel matrix.  Meaning they work optimally if you don't line skip.  The problem in movie modes is you are line skipping.  The cool thing about the 3x zoom on the T3i/600D is it is just a sensor crop.  It does not involve line skipping.  So voila the built in anti-aliasing filter works!  Any zoom beyond 3x is digital zoom and looks like poo.  In fact anything beyond 3x zoom is locked out by default in magic lantern.  I thought ML broke my camera at first but after some reading I discovered the developers were actually trying to save people from themselves.  I actually like using the 3x zoom when I can instead of a longer lens because you get to fully utilize the built in anti-aliasing filter and it works!  It is not perfect but it does dramatically help.  Of course if I want to use my 50mm 1.4 it becomes a 150mm... and then you add in the APS-C factor and now you are looking at a 200+mm lens!  That could be a good or very bad thing.

 

The way the 3x zoom is implemented it is an either or situation.  You turn it on before recording and you either do regular 1080p or 3x zoom 1080p.  You don't actively do a smooth zoom while recording between the two.  It's just a jump.

 

If the improvement with the VAF-TXi is the same as the 3x zoom I will be happy.  Of course since it is optimized for the line skipping of 1080p it does nothing for 720p.

 

As others have said you simply cannot edit out the extreme moiré and aliasing the Canon Rebels produce.  The problem is it's complex and baked in.  The other problem you have is the camera only has so much processing horse power and the codec can only do so much especially the way Canon implements it.  So if you are feeding it all this catastrophic moiré and aliasing it is devoting tons of resources to recording processing and compressing it into the codec... which means it isn't devoting those resources to other things.  All those shimmering false colors in every frame produce a lot of data.

 

I just wish someone did a side by side comparison between a Canon Rebel with a VAF-TXi and some Panasonics.  The Panasonic GH2 was allegedly great when it came to avoiding moiré and aliasing.  I've heard people grumble about the moiré with the G6.  It's hard to make an informed decision.  A 600D even with a VAF-TXi is still hundreds of dollars less than a GH3.  There have been reviews of the VAF-TXi but no one has sat down and done a hard core across the board comparison.  For such an incredible (and expensive) device you really have to wonder what is going on.

[ntblowz]

Well for RAW I recommand 4TB+ of HDD in RAID, a couple of Sandisk Extreme Pro 95MB 64GB cards, i7 4770 + 16GB of ram + 240GB SSD if you want smooth workflow, so for the PC side and memory cards you definitely have to spend US$1500+

[Julian]

I just wish someone did a side by side comparison between a Canon Rebel with a VAF-TXi and some Panasonics.  The Panasonic GH2 was allegedly great when it came to avoiding moiré and aliasing.  I've heard people grumble about the moiré with the G6.  It's hard to make an informed decision.  A 600D even with a VAF-TXi is still hundreds of dollars less than a GH3.  There have been reviews of the VAF-TXi but no one has sat down and done a hard core across the board comparison.  For such an incredible (and expensive) device you really have to wonder what is going on.

 

Moiré on the G6? No way. It's basically the same sensor as the GH2 (but improved on some points!). I'm pretty sure it must have been the GH3 you've been hearing people grumble about. It does show moire in some cases with very sharp lenses.

 

With a Panasonic G6 you don't need the VAF... just buy the body and you're done. I don't see the sense in a 600D + VAF.