Panasonic FF L-mount Cine camera coming

[Mmmbeats]

I think this is going to be priced out of reach for most indie filmmakers and jobbing one-man-bands.  Where I can see this being really popular is as a b-cam, tricky-corner cam, backup body, etc. on professional crewed shoots.  If I was DPing on something critical with a top end cinema camera, I'd really love to have something like this sitting in a bag on standby.  It looks like it's capable of being tuned to deliver footage that could live alongside top level stuff quite convincingly (based on how the S1 is shaping up).

I can't think of a better combo for that particular usage (which is big money if it really catches on).

Also, small productions (web series', multi-cam doc, etc.) might be interested.  There's a lot of money to be saved over full-blown cinema cameras, especially if you're buying several units.

I just can't see solo operator / owners coming in in large numbers.  So far, there's not enough to suggest value over the other fantastic cameras in the sector.  Plus, if you really need to step up in quality the fully-featured cinema cameras start to come into range for just a bit more.  Also, the inbetweeny market is starting to come to life a bit (Z Cam), so there's that temptation too.

I'm not so fixated on either FF or 6K as selling points.  Of course, I'm happy to take them if on offer, but give me a really super-functioning S35 camera at 4K and my money's yours.  The market as a whole may feel differently!

So far Panansonic's L-Mount offerings all seem perfectly interesting, but from a selling POV, a bit niche.  I hope they know what they're doing.

[Andrew Reid]

1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said:

The EOS-R isn't perfect but it has no rolling shutter, biggest and most affordable lens lineup in the world, built in ND, stabilization, c-log, high bitrate, great audio, seamless transition between photo and video, and of course a great stills camera built in. 

Until another company releases a camera in the same range to replace it I don't have much choice but to use the awful Canon..

Facts:

It has a rolling shutter, of course like most cameras without a global shutter. In 1080p the distortion is tolerable. In 4K it's worst on the market up there with A6300.

It doesn't have built in ND, it's in the adapter. Adapter NDs you can get for any camera. When you want to go clear you have to change the adapter, so not the same as having a true built in ND like the FS5 or C300

High bitrate? No, it's average at around 136Mbit in 4K and much lower in 1080p. High would be 400Mbit in H.264 or 200Mbit in H.265.

Seamless transition between photo and video would be a "one click" of a switch which the EOS R cannot do. Unless you are hitting record from the stills mode, in which case you can't use all the features and have to frame-up in 3:2.

Opinion:

Clearly the EOS R is a great fit for you. Nobody is claiming to overrule that and I really do like your reviews.

Got to get the facts right though when you make statements like the above, as newbies come here to learn.

One thing we CAN definitely agree on though is the lenses... Canon EF lenses are so dominant for all the right reasons... rendering, performance, range, price. Nothing comes close.

[ntblowz]

OK I m seriously thinking gonna dump the whole EOS-R and RF lens for this.. going full Panasonic and that 10-25 too.

[kye]

11 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

OK I m seriously thinking gonna dump the whole EOS-R and RF lens for this.. going full Panasonic and that 10-25 too.

Isn't the 10-25 an MFT lens?

[ntblowz]

2 minutes ago, kye said:

Isn't the 10-25 an MFT lens?

Yeah, use it on my Panasonic MFT camera

[Oliver Daniel]

There seem to be a few people happy with the EOS R, but there's no denying for most people it's absolutely rock bottom for mirrorless video (like all their other DSLR / DSLM) cameras when it comes to video. Even Fuji are miles ahead for video capture now. The frustration targeted at Canon is there for good reason., however it's best to forget about it. 

There's also a lot of talk about autofocus. Rightly so, this is absolutely fantastic for solo gimbal and I'd love to have PDAF in the GH5. Not having PDAF doesn't stop me shooting. However, A LOT of people have got really, really obsessed with it as if they've forgot to use manual focus (which I use 99% of the time). Manual lenses are way more fun! 

There's also a hell of a lot of bashing about the S1 cameras due to unrealistic expectations (requests for internal BRAW etc, what?). For video, there's literally nothing else like it and people are still complaining? 

We're spoilt for choice these days and there's something for everyone. Enjoy it! 

[kye]

1 minute ago, ntblowz said:

Yeah, use it on my Panasonic MFT camera

Ah, I thought you were saying to use it on the new FF Panny, and I'm thinking "ummm........"

???

[ntblowz]

1 minute ago, kye said:

Ah, I thought you were saying to use it on the new FF Panny, and I'm thinking "ummm........"

???

oh lol

Got S1 and G7, but i m thinking getting G95 for 10-25mm, and sell S1 & R to get S1H

8 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

There seem to be a few people happy with the EOS R, but there's no denying for most people it's absolutely rock bottom for mirrorless video (like all their other DSLR / DSLM) cameras when it comes to video. Even Fuji are miles ahead for video capture now. The frustration targeted at Canon is there for good reason., however it's best to forget about it. 

There's also a lot of talk about autofocus. Rightly so, this is absolutely fantastic for solo gimbal and I'd love to have PDAF in the GH5. Not having PDAF doesn't stop me shooting. However, A LOT of people have got really, really obsessed with it as if they've forgot to use manual focus (which I use 99% of the time). Manual lenses are way more fun! 

There's also a hell of a lot of bashing about the S1 cameras due to unrealistic expectations (requests for internal BRAW etc, what?). For video, there's literally nothing else like it and people are still complaining? 

We're spoilt for choice these days and there's something for everyone. Enjoy it! 

Well said, after coming from A7III to S1 the AF is acceptable for me, the new linear focus options is really great for manual focus, Sony one is just pain the ass unless you got expensive GM lens for MF.

[JordanWright]

1 hour ago, andjo said:

There is one area that favours good AF and that's when covering live events (festivals, sports etc) where you don't have any kind of control over your subject. You have about 1-2 seconds to capture the moment and nailing focus manually within that time frame is quite difficult (atleast for me). In those cases the difference between a average AF and good AF can be a life saver. So I do think that AF provides value to a camera even though maybe a lot of us never have to use it in controlled situations. 

I've covered a various live events (although admittedly nothing as fast moving as sports can be, so that could change things) but I would not trust autofocus in a situation that I can't retake... but each to there own, if people see it as a must have feature then fair enough!

[Video Hummus]

3 hours ago, ade towell said:

pretty sure that's a big reason we've not seen a Sony a7s3 - there's no way they can squeeze 4k60p in those bodies without it exploding

I have the same hunch as well. They are probably taking the time to design a whole new body for future cameras as well. Maybe even chipsets and all.

Shooting at 4Kp60 with PDAF in chip and eye AF is probably challenging on the hardware. 

33 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

the new linear focus options is really great for manual focus

Why can’t they bring this to GH5/S? It’s just a software update. Please Panny!

[DBounce]

3 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

Canons R cameras are not sutied toward 4k in the first place - huge crop, no PDAF. You can go Canon if you dont need 4k at all.

I see this a lot? But somehow it never seems to stop me from shooting 4K with my EOS R. I guess Canon gave me the “upgraded” 4K enabled model.

I know this, when the “Pro” body is released... with Quad Pixel Auto Focus (which Canon are working on) all of that excellent glass is going to shine even more. Buying into a new body is really buying into a system. We can be quite certain that Canon’s full frame mirrorless system isn’t going away anytime soon. But Panasonic, being the priciest of the lot... and so far as we know, the worst AF; well, their longevity is in doubt.

Still, I won’t count Panasonic out just yet. Clearly important information was stupidly omitted from the official press release. Who knows? Maybe PDAF is now present? Maybe built in electronic ND? That would actually position this camera into awesome territory. We just don’t know... which isn’t supposed to be the case at this point.

[DBounce]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Facts:

It has a rolling shutter, of course like most cameras without a global shutter. In 1080p the distortion is tolerable. In 4K it's worst on the market up there with A6300.

It doesn't have built in ND, it's in the adapter. Adapter NDs you can get for any camera. When you want to go clear you have to change the adapter, so not the same as having a true built in ND like the FS5 or C300

High bitrate? No, it's average at around 136Mbit in 4K and much lower in 1080p. High would be 400Mbit in H.264 or 200Mbit in H.265.

Erh, I’m not sure which EOS R you have, but mine captures 4K UHD in ALL-i MP4 H.264 @ 480 Mb/s (as shown on Canon’s website) That’s a pretty beefy codec where I come from.

Your “Facts” are broken!

And as for the rolling shutters?

Only a worry for the PanPan crowd.

And about that ND adapter with built in lens mount... that you state is available for “any camera”... could you please post a link to the S-series version? 

 

[DBounce]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Got to get the facts right though when you make statements like the above, as newbies come here to learn.

That goes for you too.

[webrunner5]

You can get the FotoDiox ND Throttle Variable ND Filter to work with nearly Any camera. I have one and it works great, and they are cheap as hell.

And Sony's new AF is even better than DPAF. Canon, unless they come out with something amazing, and soon , is fast becoming a has been company. They are far behind.

The Canon ND adapter is a dust magnet more than anything. What the hell you suppose to stick in there if you Don't want a ND? I will give them credit for developing it, but it is an unfinished, half assed product.

[DBounce]

54 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

You can get the FotoDiox ND Throttle Variable ND Filter to work with nearly Any camera. I have one and it works great, and they are cheap as hell.

And does that work with AF lenses with the same performance as on native bodies? Yeah, I didn’t think so.

And Sony's new AF is even better than DPAF. Canon, unless they come out with something amazing, and soon , is fast becoming a has been company. They are far behind.

Sony’s AF is great... if you don’t mind the micro-shifting that it does constantly.

The Canon ND adapter is a dust magnet more than anything. What the hell you suppose to stick in there if you Don't want a ND? I will give them credit for developing it, but it is an unfinished, half assed product.  

You’re supposed to insert the clear filter of course.

There one point I concede is there is a substantial crop in 4K. But there are work arounds for that. The rest of the criticism is largely unwarranted. And at the end of the day you have a lens investment that will live on as you upgrade to newer and better bodies. I’m not sure the same can be said for the Panasonic? If they omitted PDAF, many will find the price a tough pill to swallow.

 

[Video Hummus]

2 hours ago, DBounce said:

And as for the rolling shutters?

Only a worry for the PanPan crowd.

The train is obviously leaning heavily to the left. It’s bad and looks unrealistic. No “panPan” in that shot.

People blog on the EOS R. There is a lot of panning when they flip the camera around or spin at all. 

No one wants to get in a pissing match about your camera and that you love it. Many people (even people who own it) express disappointment with Canon with it. It has some great features but a lot of compromises people can’t get over. 

[webrunner5]

31 minutes ago, DBounce said:

There one point I concede is there is a substantial crop in 4K. But there are work arounds for that. The rest of the criticism is largely unwarranted. And at the end of the day you have a lens investment that will live on as you upgrade to newer and better bodies. I’m not sure the same can be said for the Panasonic? If they omitted PDAF, many will find the price a tough pill to swallow.

 

Oh I am not saying the Canon EOS R is not a great camera in some respects, and if it fits your needs, which in your case it does, it is a fine camera. They just are Holding too much back for me to plow any big money into them. I am probably going to buy a EOS M in a week or so for ML. Yeah I have a few Canon EF lenses laying around and a 125 Dollar body is not going to kill me. So I am not anti Canon, Hell I would kill for a 1DC.

[PrometheusDM]

21 hours ago, DBounce said:

And you seemed to have left out a few important feature the S1 lacks...

EOS R:

1. Higher resolution sensor. 

2. The most cinematic AF system to date. With no micro-hunting as witnessed in other system. 

3. Usable AF in low light conditions down to -6EV.

4. Seamless use of legacy glass. 

5. ND adapter.

6. Robust codec.

7. Massive lens collection with included adapter.

8. Great color science.

9. More manageable size/weight... which means for many it’s more likely to be carried.

10. And most importantly... IT’S A CANON!

OK, maybe that last one is more important to some people than others, but there it is.

 

At least I include alot more detail than your blanket statement "Panasonic is the most expensive of the bunch... by a reasonable margin, asking $500 more than Canon or Sony" without taking into consideration of everything it has over EOS R. I was a Canon users for 10 years!

No it's not. I got it for $2250 with free battery and grip ($450), free 3 year extended battery, free vlog FW update ($200). After selling the battery grip, it's $2000. Bargain really compared to 1DXII/5DIII days of buying camera.

1. While 30 mpx is nice for cropping, 24 mpx isn't bad either. I  blow my image large to 24x36 no problem. I do it alot for weddings and I know plenty of wedding photographer do it for Sony A7III/A9. They have a 96 mpx mode if you really want the mpx.

2. I do wish Panasonic has better AF and eyeAF like Canon or Sony, but it's more than enough for me to do the job. Hopefully they get there.

3. S1 has -6 EV. I used it for 1 wedding already.

4. True. They have the best integration 

5. ND adapter - yes excellent use of the adapter but it's $400 for it. Not bad but it doesn't come free with the EOS R.

6. Robust codec? What does it has after the free vlog FW update? 

7. S1 works with EF lenses. I do wish they have AF-C but it's temp band aid until Sigma lenses available.

8. Great color science? As someone who shoot for 10 years, I find that is rubbish. Panasonic has great color. Heck even some scene, I find Sony to look nicer.

9. Size/weight. Sure if you want extremely portable package not 28-70 F2 or Sigma 105 1.4. For professional lens with 24-70, 70-200 2.8, it isn't much differences. EOS R doesn't have IBIS, better EVF, 4K 10 bit thus the smaller size.

10. Canon - that's all it take for you to buy? I say this from a Canon user of 10 years who own Rebel, 6D, 5D III, 5DIV, EOS R that is stupid to remain loyal to any company.

I switch to any manufacturers provide me with the best value propositions. This include electronic like smart phone, big screen TV, CPU, car. I don't go by legacy brand name prestige.  

There are things I wish Panasonic does better like AF/eyeAF, and better EF-L adapter support, but I am overall happy with my purchase.

I sold my 5D IV for $2000 and got the S1. It's crazy how much people value Canon and I get a great camera with IBIS, EVF, 4K, better sensor, and functionality.

I can see the appeal of EOS R, A7III, Z6 and S1. S1 is just better value for me since I don't value AF-C, 30 mpx, seamless EF lens support or ND adapter as much. If you do, enjoy it. I know what I need for my shooting style and S1 it is for me. 

 

[thebrothersthre3]

5 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

I think this is going to be priced out of reach for most indie filmmakers and jobbing one-man-bands.  Where I can see this being really popular is as a b-cam, tricky-corner cam, backup body, etc. on professional crewed shoots.  If I was DPing on something critical with a top end cinema camera, I'd really love to have something like this sitting in a bag on standby.  It looks like it's capable of being tuned to deliver footage that could live alongside top level stuff quite convincingly (based on how the S1 is shaping up).

I can't think of a better combo for that particular usage (which is big money if it really catches on).

Also, small productions (web series', multi-cam doc, etc.) might be interested.  There's a lot of money to be saved over full-blown cinema cameras, especially if you're buying several units.

I just can't see solo operator / owners coming in in large numbers.  So far, there's not enough to suggest value over the other fantastic cameras in the sector.  Plus, if you really need to step up in quality the fully-featured cinema cameras start to come into range for just a bit more.  Also, the inbetweeny market is starting to come to life a bit (Z Cam), so there's that temptation too.

I'm not so fixated on either FF or 6K as selling points.  Of course, I'm happy to take them if on offer, but give me a really super-functioning S35 camera at 4K and my money's yours.  The market as a whole may feel differently!

So far Panansonic's L-Mount offerings all seem perfectly interesting, but from a selling POV, a bit niche.  I hope they know what they're doing.

I don't know, I feel like the 1DX MK2 did well enough with solo operators. Granted it has and still has the best auto focus one can get. That said the Panasonic punches ahead in terms of low light, dynamic range, resolution, bit depth and codec.

I think people are also underestimating the value of a flippy screen. Some vloggers have been using Pana G85's or GH5's almost solely for the flip screen. A full frame flippy screen camera that isn't a handicapped Canon has been long awaited. Probably a pretty niche market though.

We'll see how well it does at $4000.
 

 

[TheBoogieKnight]

Does anyone know for definite if 4k60 is cropped on the S1H?