Panasonic FF L-mount Cine camera coming

[anonim]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

What part of $2500 for a full frame 10bit V-LOG shooting camera isn't a bargain? The $2000 or the $500? Oh and it is also a kick ass stills camera with best EVF on the market and Super 35mm 4K 60p like an X-T3, but still isn't a bargain?

You are right (except for this thread is about S1H)...actually, maybe it is Panasonic's brilliant marketing idea with S1H: to make S1 looks more as bargain.

[newfoundmass]

12 minutes ago, anonim said:

Meh... necessity of full frame for film making...

I'm in agreement overall. I don't think full frame is necessary at all! 

8 minutes ago, mercer said:

The GH5 should have been $1500

The GH5 was worth every penny at $2000. It was literally 2 years ahead of its time. It's still a great deal at the $1300 or whatever price point it's currently at. 

[wolf33d]

That camera is a joke, basically a S1 with weird 6K for 2x the price.

The S1 is cool but the AF is unacceptable for me. So there is only Sony now to give us a good FF video camera, let’s see 

[anonim]

3 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

The GH5 was worth every penny at $2000. It was literally 2 years ahead of its time. 

It was (even now is) really cine dream... and last one that Panasonic could play safe, with than unheard 10bit, 60k, proper vlog... still totally safe of others RAW implementation.

[mercer]

7 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

 

The GH5 was worth every penny at $2000. It was literally 2 years ahead of its time. It's still a great deal at the $1300 or whatever price point it's currently at. 

I guess... it’s all relative. I paid $2000 for my 5D3 to load hacked software on it. My other choice was the GH5 for the same money. If the GH5 was $500 cheaper, I may have gone the other way... but I am just a hobbyist so I’m not the best example of such things.

Panasonic just seems to do weird things... the GH5s and S1H are perfect examples where there are glaring omissions from the higher end model that the lower end model has. I mean seriously... for $2000 more, they can’t give us IBIS?!

[newfoundmass]

It should also be noted that nothing has been announced, as far as I know, about codecs. 

[Andrew Reid]

5 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

That camera is a joke, basically a S1 with weird 6K for 2x the price.

The S1 is cool but the AF is unacceptable for me. So there is only Sony now to give us a good FF video camera, let’s see 

The 6K in weird 3:2 is bonkers. I'd agree with you there. They should have at least an option for standard aspect ratios, whilst keeping 6000 pixel full width readout.

And if the 5.9K 16:9 is really only at 30p, then that is inexcusable. I really hope it is just a mistake in the press material. It's as if they basically put the S1's burst mode on a cinema camera and forgot to change the frame rate.

With the AF - I have a place, and will always have a place for a manual focus camera with great EVF. A lot of amazing stuff that people would kill to own, does not have AF of any kind. Alexa, Digital Bolex, F35, RED, Leica M, all sorts.

AF makes us a bit lazy, video is always best with manual focus... But it is very necessary for stills. And this is where Panasonic's BIG mistake comes in... The S1 and S1R WILL NOT SELL as pro stills cameras without better AF. To even GET AF, it is practically an extra $6000 for a 50mm prime and a couple of zooms. Not very good value for money compared to putting your EF lenses on a Sony A9 is it?

I hope the situation improves when Sigma bring out their ART L mount lenses.

By the way I have now tried the MC-21 adapter with both Canon and Sigma lenses... Same slow 1-2 second AF on both... Sigma lenses don't have an advantage on their own adapter. Of course, it's all contrast detect AF's fault.

For video it doesn't bother me though, as I have other bodies to fall back on when I need AF for video and the rest of the time I enjoy my manual focus lenses... I have some very nice ones.

But for sure it is going to hurt the S1 and especially S1R in stills market vs Sony and Canon.

[anonim]

Just now, mercer said:

Panasonic just seems to do weird things... the GH5s and S1H are perfect examples where there are glaring omissions from the higher end model that the lower end model has. I mean seriously... for $2000 more, they can’t give us IBIS?!

I will not bet that S1H will not have it... As I understand Panasonic intention, this poor news is just for testing pulse and reactions of user base -  (And for my taste it is not just poor news, but little bit poor attitude in general.)

[Andrew Reid]

3 minutes ago, mercer said:

Panasonic just seems to do weird things... the GH5s and S1H are perfect examples where there are glaring omissions from the higher end model that the lower end model has. I mean seriously... for $2000 more, they can’t give us IBIS?!

It's frustrating, but not weird when you consider the people the S1H and GH5S are aiming at. On set, on a production, on a TV show, you are rigging the camera to stabilisers, gimbals and even vehicles. Any vibration through the sensor's moving block is going to cause issues there, so IBIS remains targeted more at stills cameras than pro video cameras.

Also I presume on these productions, a matte box with drop in NDs will be used so Panasonic didn't think to go internal. An Alexa or RED is the same.

[mercer]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Also I presume on these productions, a matte box with drop in NDs will be used so Panasonic didn't think to go internal. An Alexa or RED is the same.

I get the rationalization behind it but I think they’re missing an obvious point... the S1H will never be an Alexa or a Red... or even a Varicam or an EVA1... I would think the target market would be GH5 owners that want the “Full Frame look” with the GH5’s bells and whistles.

AF... yeah who cares... most AF lenses are boring anyway... I’d rather use a Super Speed.

L Mount... ehh... not my favorite choice but not a deal breaker and as you said... you can adapt anything to it.

Honestly I think the news of the day is the free upgrade on the S1. Is the IBIS as good as the GH5’s? 

[pureaxis]

No mention of IBIS in the press at all, I don't see why getting this over the S1

[Andrew Reid]

8 minutes ago, mercer said:

I get the rationalization behind it but I think they’re missing an obvious point... the S1H will never be an Alexa or a Red... or even a Varicam or an EVA1... I would think the target market would be GH5 owners that want the “Full Frame look” with the GH5’s bells and whistles.

The S1 is that, no?

8 minutes ago, mercer said:

AF... yeah who cares... most AF lenses are boring anyway... I’d rather use a Super Speed.

L Mount... ehh... not my favorite choice but not a deal breaker and as you said... you can adapt anything to it.

Honestly I think the news of the day is the free upgrade on the S1. Is the IBIS as good as the GH5’s? 

IBIS is very close to the GH5 on the S1. Certainly way better than Sony

[ajay]

I found this whole announcement to be really strange. No complete specs. No view of the back of the camera. No hands-on allowing the media full access to the camera.

Seems like this whole thing was a marketing ploy to be the first to announce a mirrorless camera with 6k.

The camera is half-baked.

[mercer]

3 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The S1 is that, no?

Honestly, I haven’t researched the S1 that much... for some reason I thought it was a $3000 camera. But from the glowing reviews I keep hearing about it from you guys, I’m going to put it on my radar. Does the S2 have some of the video features the GH5 has... shutter angle... waveforms... Anamorphic mode?

Your opinion holds s lot of weight in the cinematic, video world, so I’m curious to know your thoughts on the S1 vs. the 1DC... and the D850... which you compared it’s IQ to the 1DC if I remember correctly?

[Pedro]

They clearly wanted to be first at 6k... Just a marketing manoeuvre. 6k 3:2 ??

No prores, no phase detection, no ibis..  it almost makes the S1 look inexpensive.

 

[Amazeballs]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

What part of $2500 for a full frame 10bit V-LOG shooting camera isn't a bargain? The $2000 or the $500? Oh and it is also a kick ass stills camera with best EVF on the market and Super 35mm 4K 60p like an X-T3, but still isn't a bargain?

The overpriced infinitesimal lens selection part + no reliable AFC part

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

An Alexa or RED doesn't have PDAF either! Manual focus for cinema is fine by me... My best lenses are MF. And when you need video AF, keep a cheap second body like an A6400 handy.

Fine for you is not a criteria of a sucsesfull camera on an already crowded FF market. Drawing an example of RED or Arri is inadequate as they are specific cinema cameras that imply a CREW and a budget, I could have extra 5 ppl helping me to pull focus, comb my hear, blow my dick and read me news simualtenesly, if I am shooting with a 50k camera as well. A single cinema lens might cost around 20k alone, so thats a production level at which one can afford a dedicated focus-puller-boy (or girl for that matter, I prefer girls)

Suggestion about having an extra 6400 in your pocket is quite funny. So I have to buy all the extra lenses for it right? And my focus-pull girl will carry it and shoot with it herself I guess. Need to remember about her salary as well. I dont want to invest in 2 completly different systems just cos Pana doesnt want to implement PDAF ignoring their users asking it for years. 

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

It is only the first year. Will get better in terms of native lenses. Until then, you can adapt only... everything.

Will it? And only 1 year, why are you so sure about that? You think cheap Sigma lenses will solve everything? Not for me - they are a) huge old sigma lenses with build-in adapter, b) they have no CAF! Noup thanks. So it might be 3-5 years all we know or might be never. And I dont want to make such an expensive guess. I want to invest in system and start shooting day one. You can wait ofcourse but dont try to sel it as a feature. Its a huge drawback of an L-mount in general. 

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Well, you will have to criticise everyone in that case because nobody is doing a $2500 full frame camera with global shutter, 4K 120p raw and built in ND... And if they did, it would be by RED and cost $50,000.

We are talking about how to sell a 4000$k DLSM with an unpopular new mount, where both other of its relatives have failed in sales. Yes, you need to give customers MORE than just beeing equal or slightly better. Why is it hard to make build in-ND for fuck sake? Who needs shutter in a cinema-oriented camera for 4$k? And yes I would critisize everyone for not having a built-in ND in a video-oriented DSLM. But Pany is not in a position where they can make a slighly better camera with a miserable autofoucs, absent lens lineup and charge whatever they want. And the market shows that. 

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

WTF? Cinema people shoot selfies now?

I think its been answered many times before. Flip out screen is good not only for selfies. Its a generally more comfortable screen for video shooting. I would go further and make screens like Sharp did on their 8k MFT camera - now thats how you make it, if you want attract customers. Not an expensive or very innovative thing to do, but surely an attractive for buyers. You just want to ignore sales and marketing demand concetrating on few ppl who dont need aoutofocus or have external monitors. 

We are not talking about how good Pany cameras are stand-alone vs competition spec to spec. We are talking about L-mount system cost\features in general vs other systems. And right now they dont look very good. 

------

For myself I have decided that I am not moving to a system with a shitty unreliable autofocus. Whats good having all those 4k60p 10 bit 422 raw bla bla if its out of focus? And dont start that old song about "pros doing manual focus for years". They've been doing many thing for years - with a crew and a budget. I need camera to work for 1 man crew. I need it to work on a gimbal or flycam. And I need it to be fast and efficient. Autofocus solves that for me. I love Pany cameras, I own one, but I guess Pany doesnt need my money anymore. 

[currensheldon]

With the free firmware upgrade for the S1 (if you have already bought it or will buy it in the next two months), the S1 is a pretty amazing deal. The IBIS is the best in class - very close to GH5 and way better than anything else above MFT sensor size. 

I was hoping the S1H announcement would be more like most camera manufacturers announcement - meaning, announce full camera, release 4-6 weeks later. But Panasonic, for better or for worse, have been doing small teases, then announcing full specs 2-3 months later, than putting them on sale for their last 3-4 major announcements (GH5, S1(r), and EVA-1). It's a bit annoying.

BUT that does mean we don't know everything about the S1H yet - I think they'd be crazy if they took out IBIS. The only thing that may make that worth it would be to include NDs (to save room, perhaps?). It may even have internal compressed raw... or raw out... or a mini xlr jack. We just don't know everything yet. Until then, I'm salivating over the S1 firmware update and want to get that bad boy loaded up as soon as possible.

One thing is for sure - Panasonic is pumping out some amazing full frame camera bodies. IMO, the three best mirrorless cameras for video right now are all Panasonic. Impressive.

--

But Panasonic and Sigma need to get on some small native lenses right away. 

 

 

 

[Parker]

Looks like it does actually have that flippy screen so many were interested in though, so that's good:

I did read somewhere, newsshooter maybe? That it does indeed have the same IBIS as its sister S cameras, I'll try to find a reliable link. 

[Andrew Reid]

33 minutes ago, Amazeballs said:

The overpriced infinitesimal lens selection part + no reliable AFC part

Fine for you is not a criteria of a sucsesfull camera on an already crowded FF market. Drawing an example of RED or Arri is inadequate as they are specific cinema cameras that imply a CREW and a budget, I could have extra 5 ppl helping me to pull focus, comb my hear, blow my dick and read me news simualtenesly, if I am shooting with a 50k camera as well. A single cinema lens might cost around 20k alone, so thats a production level at which one can afford a dedicated focus-puller-boy (or girl for that matter, I prefer girls)

Suggestion about having an extra 6400 in your pocket is quite funny. So I have to buy all the extra lenses for it right? And my focus-pull girl will carry it and shoot with it herself I guess. Need to remember about her salary as well. I dont want to invest in 2 completly different systems just cos Pana doesnt want to implement PDAF ignoring their users asking it for years. 

Will it? And only 1 year, why are you so sure about that? You think cheap Sigma lenses will solve everything? Not for me - they are a) huge old sigma lenses with build-in adapter, b) they have no CAF! Noup thanks. So it might be 3-5 years all we know or might be never. And I dont want to make such an expensive guess. I want to invest in system and start shooting day one. You can wait ofcourse but dont try to sel it as a feature. Its a huge drawback of an L-mount in general. 

We are talking about how to sell a 4000$k DLSM with an unpopular new mount, where both other of its relatives have failed in sales. Yes, you need to give customers MORE than just beeing equal or slightly better. Why is it hard to make build in-ND for fuck sake? Who needs shutter in a cinema-oriented camera for 4$k? And yes I would critisize everyone for not having a built-in ND in a video-oriented DSLM. But Pany is not in a position where they can make a slighly better camera with a miserable autofoucs, absent lens lineup and charge whatever they want. And the market shows that. 

I think its been answered many times before. Flip out screen is good not only for selfies. Its a generally more comfortable screen for video shooting. I would go further and make screens like Sharp did on their 8k MFT camera - now thats how you make it, if you want attract customers. Not an expensive or very innovative thing to do, but surely an attractive for buyers. You just want to ignore sales and marketing demand concetrating on few ppl who dont need aoutofocus or have external monitors. 

We are not talking about how good Pany cameras are stand-alone vs competition spec to spec. We are talking about L-mount system cost\features in general vs other systems. And right now they dont look very good. 

------

For myself I have decided that I am not moving to a system with a shitty unreliable autofocus. Whats good having all those 4k60p 10 bit 422 raw bla bla if its out of focus? And dont start that old song about "pros doing manual focus for years". They've been doing many thing for years - with a crew and a budget. I need camera to work for 1 man crew. I need it to work on a gimbal or flycam. And I need it to be fast and efficient. Autofocus solves that for me. I love Pany cameras, I own one, but I guess Pany doesnt need my money anymore. 

You make a lot of fair points, well done. I am not going to argue that much.

I do think the S1 + Filmmaker Update is a good deal. Yes it has cons, as a system it is early days, the autofocus is a problem for many, many people... I get that, but let's not lose sight of the stuff we should be excited about, like the full frame sensor, doing oversampled 4K from 6K, really nice 10bit codec, V-LOG (from July), great colour science, market leading EVF better than even the Leica SL, superb ergonomics, articulated screen and huge battery. Also, it's a great stills camera for manual focus glass with that huge EVF.

I think full frame 10bit 4:2:2 V-LOG and nice 1080p up to 180fps is something no other camera currently offers. Not Sony, not Canon, not Fuji, and when you consider it is $2500, that's a very good offer.

I agree with your deal-breakers though. The AF situation will lose Panasonic a lot of customers. The lens situation is, shall we say, challenging when it comes to native stuff. Expensive, may be another word. Built in ND should be there on the S1H, but would add to the cost as well. I think Panasonic wanted to make an S1H based as closely on the S1 as possible without too much mission creep.

I agree that larger screens we are seeing on a select few... BM Pocket 4K and Sharp 8K cams - would be great to have... but those cameras don't even have an EVF. Let's not decry the S1 for lacking a few niceties when it packs in a FAR more complete and well rounded feature-set.

As one-man operator who needs AF, IBIS, built in ND, 10bit, 4K.60p, honesty you are not gonna find it ALL in one camera for $2000... Let's be real.

Closest you will get is Fuji X-H1 or X-T3.... Maybe the A7 III... But not even these do all of that in one body.

And if you go Blackmagic, you lose even more convenience.

And good luck with an EOS R... You might need to buy new lenses to get any sort of wide end, if all you have is designed for full frame... And the rolling shutter is shit. No IBIS. No 10bit. No 4K/60p. No built in ND, the adapter is needed and it's not a pro piece of kit, sucks in dirt, not easy to go instantly to clear filter, and to top it all off, there's no kind of 120fps at all... Unless you count the 720p line skipped shite. I don't.

[webrunner5]

Well this video sort of sums up our thoughts and concerns.