Panasonic FF L-mount Cine camera coming

[SR]

BMP4K has killed my interests in finding another dslr-type cinema camera. But I wouldn't mind an S1R type (crazy high megapixel) that does 10bit video (highly improbable).

[Oliver Daniel]

It's a bit confusing where this will fit. 

The EVA1 is the sub-10k flagship. 

The S1 is a photography camera BUT they want to appease video shooters too. 

I assume the GH6 is on the way at some point in the next year and a half, which will have to boast amazing video features to appeal. 

So Cinema LUMIX? Couldn't even guess what it will be like considering the other models. Probably an S1-C with external ProRes RAW or something. 

[KC Kelly]

I just want better timecode via BNC, and less lag time for external monitors, hopefully with SDI. 

[Skip77]

6 hours ago, kye said:

Interesting.  Do we think it's a FF EVA equivalent, higher price/performance, or lower in the range?

I'd imagine that it would make sense in a lineup that also contains the GH6.

The GH6 is not FF

1 hour ago, SR said:

BMP4K has killed my interests in finding another dslr-type cinema camera. But I wouldn't mind an S1R type (crazy high megapixel) that does 10bit video (highly improbable).

The S1R is going to be able to do 10 bit video with it's update, I think.

[Andrew Reid]

1 hour ago, SR said:

BMP4K has killed my interests in finding another dslr-type cinema camera. But I wouldn't mind an S1R type (crazy high megapixel) that does 10bit video (highly improbable).

I am very impressed with the 10bit H.265 codec in the S1. It looks laughable because of the small file sizes and bitrate (72mbit H.265 = 144mbit H.264) but actually it's surprisingly close to the look of ProRes on my BMPC4K. It also looks less compressed than Sony's 100Mbit codec and more in keeping with a good 140Mbit H.265 4K file... That is close to 10bit ProRes Proxy in terms of the compression (Proxy is 150Mbit in 4K 25p)... But as it's not an ALL-I codec, it doesn't need as high a bitrate to look as good.

Try it, and you will be surprised.

S1 beats the BMPC4K for sensor size and lowlight... not to mention powering the damn thing... and all the extra stuff you get like the massive high res EVF and 5 axis IBIS.

[Skip77]

4 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I just can't think if it is a true Cine Camera where it can fit in and not kill some other video centric camera Panasonic has?? Not unless it is a new L mount EVA1 mk II.

This is going to be the S - series cinema camera. It's a L mount lens push that bridges the gap. Think GH5 features in the S1 body with L mount glass. All this is FF and gives Panasonic the road map to go FF cinema camera next to the EVA in the future. 

Panasonic is smart. They see cine shooters won't go wit the S1 because of features but don't won't to limit L-glass just to the S1 series. 

I told you the road map for cine cameras was full frame. This is from Hollywood and not my take on Nikon.  

This is also a great move because you get the cine features you were talking about along side the hybrid camera body. This is kinda out doing what BMP4K has done. Cine is not going m4/3 and moving backwards. 

4 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I am very impressed with the 10bit H.265 codec in the S1. It looks laughable because of the small file sizes and bitrate (72mbit H.265 = 144mbit H.264) but actually it's surprisingly close to the look of ProRes on my BMPC4K. It also looks less compressed than Sony's 100Mbit codec and more in keeping with a good 140Mbit H.265 4K file... That is close to 10bit ProRes Proxy in terms of the compression (Proxy is 150Mbit in 4K 25p)... But as it's not an ALL-I codec, it doesn't need as high a bitrate to look as good.

Try it, and you will be surprised.

S1 beats the BMPC4K for sensor size and lowlight... not to mention powering the damn thing... and all the extra stuff you get like the massive high res EVF and 5 axis IBIS.

How dose the Z6 compare to the S1 in 10 bit performance and how do you think 12bit RAW on the Z6 will look? I actually love what Panasonic is doing on with the S1 and hopefully this new cine please will be in this product line.

 

[currensheldon]

I'm very curious (and excited!) about what this will be, what it will look like, and where it will fit in Panasonic's lineup.

If it is just an S1-C (cinema) with minor upgrades, that would be a bummer. However, if they could add internal NDs, I'm all in right away. Surely they'll add at least the higher-end codecs and All-I of the GH5, but that alone wouldn't excite me much. I tend to use the 10-bit 150mbps on the GH5 more often anyway for space reasons (and the S1 is already getting that with full V-Log). And, as Andrew noted, the H265 already on the camera is excellent. 

So, I would think this camera would have to be something quite a bit more to be appealing - hoping for a FS5-sized full frame camera or an XC-15 style camera. Internal NDs, IBIS, 120fps in 4K, and an efficient raw codec (please BM Raw and not ProRes Raw), are all high on my wish list. 

I just hope it's more of an FS5/EVA-1 form factor (or smaller, more LUMIX-y) and not a FS7 shoulder cam. 

--

Also excited that they'll have a working DP talking about her experience using it at CineGear, which may mean it is closer to being ready to roll than the GH5, EVA-1, or S1 were when they were announced (all announced with just basic details to sit there for 3-5 months). 

[Andrew Reid]

The S1 is getting 10bit 422 V-LOG at high bitrates, like an EVA-1... The full V-LOG not V-LOG-L like GH5.

So if the "Cinema Lumix" is going to be an S series camera in same mould as the S1, why would Panasonic give you that on the cheap body? It leaves even less room for a "cinema" version of the S1.

I suspect the Cinema Lumix camera will be in region of $6K for 6K and more likely in an EVA style form factor.

[currensheldon]

6 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The S1 is getting 10bit 422 V-LOG at high bitrates, like an EVA-1... The full V-LOG not V-LOG-L like GH5.

So if the "Cinema Lumix" is going to be an S series camera in same mould as the S1, why would Panasonic give you that on the cheap body? It leaves even less room for a "cinema" version of the S1.

I suspect the Cinema Lumix camera will be in region of $6K for 6K and more likely in an EVA style form factor.

One rumor says it is "built like a tank," so I would think they are following their S1 mode of creating true professional tools. I'm all for that. But definitely a fan of small-ish form factors (FS5/EVA) over something like Ursa Mini Pro or FS7. 

It is difficult to figure out where and how this will fit in the Panasonic lineup without hurting the EVA-1 or Varicam LT. Maybe Panasonic has decided it is better to have one massive hit and cannibalize yourself rather than wait for someone else to do it... 

[Andrew Reid]

I think image quality is already so good in 10bit on the S1 for $2k... They will have to do something different with the Cinema version for it to justify greater cost.

If you pixel peep this frame from my S1 for example it's hard to see where what exactly is so bad about it that we need a $6000 version!

[PrometheusDM]

10 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The S1 is getting 10bit 422 V-LOG at high bitrates, like an EVA-1... The full V-LOG not V-LOG-L like GH5.

So if the "Cinema Lumix" is going to be an S series camera in same mould as the S1, why would Panasonic give you that on the cheap body? It leaves even less room for a "cinema" version of the S1.

I suspect the Cinema Lumix camera will be in region of $6K for 6K and more likely in an EVA style form factor.

It could be S1-S that's price around $4-6K and offer the whole sha bang or a new GH6 with L mount.

[KnightsFan]

If Panasonic goes over $5k on a Lumix camcorder, I would have to wonder if they are planning to quietly ditch the EVA line.

[currensheldon]

To justify something more expensive, it just has to have all the intangibles and workflow features that hybrid cameras just don't have: internal NDs, great audio, timecode, ProRes or compressed raw, etc - that's the only thing I can think of. 

Image quality is pretty amazing on so many cameras from $1000+, that it is no longer the determining factor - though, the S1 image is quite a bit nicer than the A7III, EOS R, and GH5, so that helps. 

[Geoff CB]

The first company that gives me a Full Frame sensor  in a camera with built in ND, XLR, and a good codec (10-bit 4:2:2) will get my money.

The EVA-1 in L-mount with a full frame sensor would be awesome. The EOS mount on the EVA-1 (without the magic Canon AF) killed the camera for me. 

Also, never bet against Sony. The FS5 and the FS5 II both have had huge price drops recently. Would love to see a FS5 Mark III with the sensor from the A7III and their Venice colour. Hell even a FS5 with 10-bit and 4K 60p would win me over.

 

[Ben Corwin]

GH5s with IBIS and raw output, PLUS the full version of V-Log. That's all I ask!

[Skip77]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I think image quality is already so good in 10bit on the S1 for $2k... They will have to do something different with the Cinema version for it to justify greater cost.

If you pixel peep this frame from my S1 for example it's hard to see where what exactly is so bad about it that we need a $6000 version!

How does this compare to the Z6 ? 

[Jimmy G]

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I am very impressed with the 10bit H.265 codec in the S1. It looks laughable because of the small file sizes and bitrate (72mbit H.265 = 144mbit H.264) but actually it's surprisingly close to the look of ProRes on my BMPC4K. It also looks less compressed than Sony's 100Mbit codec and more in keeping with a good 140Mbit H.265 4K file... That is close to 10bit ProRes Proxy in terms of the compression (Proxy is 150Mbit in 4K 25p)... But as it's not an ALL-I codec, it doesn't need as high a bitrate to look as good.

Try it, and you will be surprised.

S1 beats the BMPC4K for sensor size and lowlight... not to mention powering the damn thing... and all the extra stuff you get like the massive high res EVF and 5 axis IBIS.

Hi Andrew, etal,

There's an interesting entry in the DC-S1 User Manual on Page 136 which lists the following information regarding 6K and 4K Photo Modes...

[Rec Quality] [6K/200M/30p]                          [Luminance Level] [0-1023] (when 6K photo recording)

[Rec Quality] [4K/150M/60p] [4K/100M/30p] [Luminance Level] [0-255] (when 4K photo recording)

...which by my reading indicates that the data rates for 6K Photo are coming in at 200Mb/s@30P and 4K Photo at 150Mb/s@60P and 100Mb/s@30P.

Curious if this was accurate I pulled up one of my 6K Photo Pre-Burst clips in VLC and the Media Information window indicates an Input bitrate of 196452 kb/s (i.e. 196.452Mb/s) and a Stream bitrate of 192570 kb/s (192.570 Mb/s) using a "MPEG-H Part2/HEVC (H.265) (hevc)" codec employing a "Planar 4:2:0 YUV 10-bit LE" format.

:)

Jimmy G

 

[TheBoogieKnight]

31 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

How does this compare to the Z6 ? 

From all the tests I've seen online (and I've seen a fair bit as I'm in the market and looking at both), the quality is comparable (of course the S1 has HLG etc. but ignoring that). The S1 does however really pulls ahead at high ISOs. It looks almost 2 stops better at the top end in the comparisons I've seen. I'd love to know why this is since they're using similar sensors. Perhaps it's just better/different noise reduction on the S1 but I feel there's more to it than that.

 

Still don't know what I'm buying!

 

[kye]

4 hours ago, Skip77 said:

The GH6 is not FF

of course!  *facepalm*

3 hours ago, currensheldon said:

I'm very curious (and excited!) about what this will be, what it will look like, and where it will fit in Panasonic's lineup.

If it is just an S1-C (cinema) with minor upgrades, that would be a bummer. However, if they could add internal NDs, I'm all in right away. Surely they'll add at least the higher-end codecs and All-I of the GH5, but that alone wouldn't excite me much. I tend to use the 10-bit 150mbps on the GH5 more often anyway for space reasons (and the S1 is already getting that with full V-Log). And, as Andrew noted, the H265 already on the camera is excellent. 

So, I would think this camera would have to be something quite a bit more to be appealing - hoping for a FS5-sized full frame camera or an XC-15 style camera. Internal NDs, IBIS, 120fps in 4K, and an efficient raw codec (please BM Raw and not ProRes Raw), are all high on my wish list. 

I just hope it's more of an FS5/EVA-1 form factor (or smaller, more LUMIX-y) and not a FS7 shoulder cam. 

--

Also excited that they'll have a working DP talking about her experience using it at CineGear, which may mean it is closer to being ready to roll than the GH5, EVA-1, or S1 were when they were announced (all announced with just basic details to sit there for 3-5 months). 

What an amusing series of events it would be if Panasonic were the ones to release the ILC XC-15 style camera that so many were interested in!

However it goes, I expect that it will be a solid product that will be put to work immediately by many working pros.

[TheBoogieKnight]

Is there a new full-frame sensor available yet that will do FF 4k60/8k/anything else new?