markm Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 If the image on the pocket is really only 8 stops I wouldn't go near it. Who said this and are there any links? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted August 22, 2013 Author Administrators Share Posted August 22, 2013 Mark are you drunk? Not talking about the pocket. Talking about the Production Camera 4K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Mark are you drunk? Not talking about the pocket. Talking about the Production Camera 4K. What you actually said The image quality of the sensor in the BMPC is suspect. I misinterpreted that as meaning the Black Magic Pocket Camera but it's clear you mean the Black Magic Production Camera . So apologies for my misinterpretation However I think it was a fair assumption AS THERE IS NO FOOTAGE that I know of for the 4k so how on earth did you work 8 stops out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 The BMPC 4K is ergonomically poor and the weight is all on a narrow plain, which isn't something that can easily be solved by rigging, except for adding yet more weight. And the Mini is a box which needs as much rigging as the BMPC What I enjoyed about the MINI is that it is so small and light. The pocket camera is small and light and does prores as well as raw. The image quality of the sensor in the BMPC is suspect. Some people have said 8 stops usable dynamic range and ISO 400 native . That's hearsay and vague That's a really noisy, dynamically range challenged chip. I don't see how they can clean up the output to get 12 stops from it. Global shutter has a big trade off for image quality, You just turned hearsay into fact and made the 4k into an 8 stop camera because of its global shutter and just decided BMD were what? Lying about it being 12 stops? unless you're investing millions in bespoke CMOS technology like Sony with the F55. And you actually know Sony invested millions into global shutter research? So I'd rather have a rolling shutter and better image quality. That's the main factor for me in the BMPC vs KineRAW MINI debate. BMD have said the 4k camera will have 12 stops you have decided it wont I guess we will know when the footage comes out but until then you don't know whether its 8 stops or 13 as some have suggested it could be when converted down to 1080p I think if the KineRAW had a Canon badge on it, the internet would be on fire. I think you are wrong but then everything in your post is guess work dressed up as fact, All highly misleading. Anyone would think you have an axe to grind against BMD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted August 22, 2013 Author Administrators Share Posted August 22, 2013 Shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Whys that Andrew? You going to ban me if I don't obey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted August 22, 2013 Author Administrators Share Posted August 22, 2013 No I'm banning you because you're annoying. Goodbye! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted August 22, 2013 Author Administrators Share Posted August 22, 2013 Only joking not really :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riccardocovino Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 All of these manufacturers get close to optimum but don't reach it. 3 Blackmagic models and none of them satisfies me completely (stops, sensor size, rolling shutter, weight, there's always something wrong). 2 Kinefinity models and they seem to get it right but, honestly, price is almost double. x Canon cameras that make the job but not out of the box and not without limitations. Personally I think that the first company that puts on the market a camera with the following specs: S35 sensor size FullHD 12 stops Raw + ProRes or Cineform normal SSD internal recording 2000-2500 $ price will sale tons! I think none of us needs 4k, nor wants to use Compact Flash, nor wants to buy add-ons to make the camera work, nor wants to struggle with crop factors, and most of all none of us goes for Raw if dynamic range is limited. mtheory and zephyrnoid 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtheory Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Andrew, did you experience any drop frames during the Kineraw shoot? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted August 26, 2013 Author Administrators Share Posted August 26, 2013 No dropped frames, but was only a 1 hour test because Cinema5D made an 'exclusive pact' with the reseller to get the full review, something I am not at all pleased with. Kinefinity need as much exposure as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtheory Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Glad to hear that...the current BMCC 2.5k has a bad habit of dropping frames and getting hot after half an hour of shooting, I wonder if the 4K camera will be able to avoid these same problems...I'd rather shoot in smooth 2K than have 4K with dropped frames. They're trying to lock out other people from doing full reviews..? WTF...too much ego and competition in this game nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted August 26, 2013 Author Administrators Share Posted August 26, 2013 They're trying to lock out other people from doing full reviews..? WTF...too much ego and competition in this game nowadays. Yeah, disgusting isn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Bannister Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Ive been waiting on BMD and changing my order to the pocket for the price I was willing to invest in their cameras at this point. But now Im actually looking into the Kineraw mini. Waiting on a full review from you for things like the false color (easy to remove?) Later today Im going to grab those frames and take a look. Im being given a pocket cam for the full week but with the white orbs I have no idea what Im actually comfortable shooting with it. MIght throw the iscorama on it and see what it does to an anamorphic flare lol. But anyways just right now at this point today Im seriously considering this kineraw mini instead of dealing with the BMD BS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PANDETTA Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 All of these manufacturers get close to optimum but don't reach it. 3 Blackmagic models and none of them satisfies me completely (stops, sensor size, rolling shutter, weight, there's always something wrong). 2 Kinefinity models and they seem to get it right but, honestly, price is almost double. x Canon cameras that make the job but not out of the box and not without limitations. Personally I think that the first company that puts on the market a camera with the following specs: S35 sensor size FullHD 12 stops Raw + ProRes or Cineform normal SSD internal recording 2000-2500 $ price will sale tons! I think none of us needs 4k, nor wants to use Compact Flash, nor wants to buy add-ons to make the camera work, nor wants to struggle with crop factors, and most of all none of us goes for Raw if dynamic range is limited. shit! you read my mind.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 All of these manufacturers get close to optimum but don't reach it. 3 Blackmagic models and none of them satisfies me completely (stops, sensor size, rolling shutter, weight, there's always something wrong). 2 Kinefinity models and they seem to get it right but, honestly, price is almost double. x Canon cameras that make the job but not out of the box and not without limitations. Personally I think that the first company that puts on the market a camera with the following specs: S35 sensor size FullHD 12 stops Raw + ProRes or Cineform normal SSD internal recording 2000-2500 $ price will sale tons! I think none of us needs 4k, nor wants to use Compact Flash, nor wants to buy add-ons to make the camera work, nor wants to struggle with crop factors, and most of all none of us goes for Raw if dynamic range is limited. Really weird how the Japanese manufacturers still wont compete. I think though it would be tough for any manufacturer to compete with BMD who own resolve so can afford to do that cheap but also they have cut back on everything except for the image to achieve this price point. I think also the BMD blueprint is the future as far as professional film making goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Andrew I think many are getting fed up with BMD and their news blackout and promised deadlines. How about doing another review on the kinefinity cameras if possible with tests to eke out any problems like globes or other possible failings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted September 1, 2013 Author Administrators Share Posted September 1, 2013 I already tested the MINI's sensor in the larger S35 model and there were no white blobs or black spots, as far as I could see. Need more time with the camera to dig deeper, that time will come in 1-2 weeks. zephyrnoid 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyrnoid Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 All of these manufacturers get close to optimum but don't reach it. 3 Blackmagic models and none of them satisfies me completely (stops, sensor size, rolling shutter, weight, there's always something wrong). 2 Kinefinity models and they seem to get it right but, honestly, price is almost double. x Canon cameras that make the job but not out of the box and not without limitations. Personally I think that the first company that puts on the market a camera with the following specs: S35 sensor size FullHD 12 stops Raw + ProRes or Cineform normal SSD internal recording 2000-2500 $ price will sale tons! I think none of us needs 4k, nor wants to use Compact Flash, nor wants to buy add-ons to make the camera work, nor wants to struggle with crop factors, and most of all none of us goes for Raw if dynamic range is limited. Did I hear an echo ? :D either Super35 or DX. Nikon could get on the stick and come up from behind. Not sure why they are not interested in this market space. Realistically, Sony could do it in partnership with Olympus. The waiting..... The angst...... :angry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephyrnoid Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Really weird how the Japanese manufacturers still wont compete. I think though it would be tough for any manufacturer to compete with BMD who own resolve so can afford to do that cheap but also they have cut back on everything except for the image to achieve this price point. I think also the BMD blueprint is the future as far as professional film making goes. You're clearly not cognizant of how Japanese Industrial Complex works. There are lots of books out there for that. Basically, they pretend to complete. They actually share a lot of IP and as we already know, fabrication is typically single sourced and multiple 'badged'. The challenge that all the camera manufacturers have is the same- They have a difficult time parsing the marketplace and therefore of rationalizing thier roll-out roadmaps resulting in the 'Waterfall Approach' to development*. That and the fact that the tech is shifting so quickly, is why we have a mess out there. The consumer is just a dumb patron to them. What I believe needs to happen soon in Japan is brand consolidations ( ie- mergers). There's too much duplication of effort and I know that the Japanese know that duplication is a WASTE. Once we have brand consolidation, then you'll see the opposite of competition as companies will be reduced to two or three at max serving the gamut of market segments, Something like this:Sony/Olympus, Nikon/Canon> consumer to ProfessionalArri/RED> Hollywood & Bollywood leaving BlackMagic/Kinefinity as fringe players in the R&D domain serving fist time adopters(Anybody want to adopt Panasonic? they ought to merge with Sony/Olympus) BlackMagic is a fringe operation. They remind me of Flip Video ( a brilliant product before they disappeared) Flip was as revolutionary and as quirky as BlackMagic. CISCO bought it, marketed it and in 2011, Killed it outright. I suspect this is what might happen to BlackMagic, though I doubt anyone will buy it just for Resolve ;) * Waterfall is actually so Un-Japanese. Develop> Prototype> Test> Release pubic beta>re-evaluate> redesign> repeat The Japanese did away with this American system and developed Kaizen. In Kaizen each step has an internal 'redesign loop' resulting in much loger lifecycles and therefore product releases. This is unpalatable to Western consumers, who are constantly looking for 'New' ever 6 months. So the Japanese have had to abandon thier own best pracices of the 70's-90's which has resulted in a return to 1960's American lifecycles. That is why you have hundreds of refreshments per annum that result in only incremental improvements. It's a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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