Why KineRAW MINI could be your next camera

[HurtinMinorKey]

The BMCC doesn't have a Super 35mm sensor, isn't very good in low light, the form factor isn't as good, it won't get 4K via an external recorder, can't do off-line CineForm, doesn't have built in LUTs, doesn't have a side-grip add-on, has issues with rolling noise, doesn't do 100fps 720P so I don't see it as a clear winner despite the lower price.

But the smaller sensor has it's advantages too, more lens options, better DR. But i agree that the main competitor to the Kineraw is probably the 5D3 because of the full frame.

 

Either way, the Kineraw seems like is stuck between a rock and a hard place in this market. If I was desperate for full frame, i really don't see the value of it compared to the 5D3. 

[riccardocovino]

@HurtinMinorKey: KineRawmini is NOT fullframe

[markm]

If Kineraw bought the price down and sold a usable camera instead of trying to cover up maximising profits they would sell like hot cakes. Especially with the mood people are in over BMD. Surely they could do that. They could establish themselves right now for the future But this way no one in their organisation will make lots of money and will disappear off the radar in my opinion.

[zephyrnoid]

Some seriously wonky maths going on. I can't factor in conversion rates, can only speak for Europe where the camera is currently shipping, for a set price.
 

OK it is not suitable for someone to whom $600 for a GH2 is a lot of money I admit that. But c'mon. Enough with the moaning.

Excellent! That sums it up and my key point is that when you start with a BOX form-factor versus the one Millionth decendent of the Leica (which was designed to transport film in the image path >>>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Ur-Leica_IMG_0259.JPG/800px-Ur-Leica_IMG_0259.JPG

You stand a way better chance of moving the product design improvements in a logical and perhaps, modular direction.
RED got it right with the concept of a box that is upgradable. Sony FS700 also 'gets that memo'.

If the folks at KineRAW are as smart as I suspect they are ( they have been listening  to USERS after all) they will follow RED's lead and develop modular cameras that use common 'Chasis', heatsink and component interfaces.

As for cost. Nothing is more expensive than a cheap camera that you entirely replace every year.

[markm]

Excellent! That sums it up and my key point is that when you start with a BOX form-factor versus the one Millionth decendent of the Leica (which was designed to transport film in the image path >>>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Ur-Leica_IMG_0259.JPG/800px-Ur-Leica_IMG_0259.JPG

You stand a way better chance of moving the product design improvements in a logical and perhaps, modular direction.
RED got it right with the concept of a box that is upgradable. Sony FS700 also 'gets that memo'.

If the folks at KineRAW are as smart as I suspect they are ( they have been listening  to USERS after all) they will follow RED's lead and develop modular cameras that use common 'Chasis', heatsink and component interfaces.

As for cost. Nothing is more expensive than a cheap camera that you entirely replace every year.

What you mean like the sony f3 or maybe the canon c300 Yep you can certainly offload all your dosh on a pretty camera alright. The BMC does RAW and err prores with 4k ON BOARD. You don't have an argument The kinefinity doesn't compete Nor does the canon C300 or the Sony F3 Not if you want to make a film that is

[zephyrnoid]

Let's look at the upgrade trajectory for some of these cameras  for video. Can someone help me rationalize these companys' upgrade roadmaps for us?

Canon 7D 1080Full HD MOV (Suddenly) >  APS-C RAW via One Chasis

Sony FS700 2K  ( as promised) > 4k RAW with an external ) via One Chasis
Canon C300 > C100 > C500 4K Raw via Three Chasis
RED> Initial line confusion but settled on> EPIC ONE Upgradable Chasis  > RED ONE Mysterium > EPIC Mysterium-X > Dragon
Kinefinity > KineRAW 2K RAW > KineRAW Mini 4K sensor 2KRAW via Two Chasis

I'm sure I have some of this awry but you get the idea.
Canon Consumer sells 'End of Life' bodies that can be resusitated via hacks and firmware upgrades but that eventually need to be replaced
Sony just 'gets it' now about one chasis, many upgrades so we shall see how the FS/
Canon Pro video sells 'End of Life' bodies rather than an upgradeable chasis
RED's 'Obsolecense Osolete' took hold for real with Epic
BMCC is a startup so it's hard to divine a roadmap just yet. They have two products for two differing markets with no clear path for how either of those products get refreshed.
Kinefinity is a startup that seems to be following Sony's roadmap but with no clue about how upgradeable the two current chasis are. They Seem to be competeing in Sony market space rather than BMC but obviously culling ideas from everyone ;)
I left ARRI Alexa and Sony F55

out as they are in a different category, yet I'd love to learn what their forward strategy is with respect to physical sensor upgradability.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

,

[mtheory]

Before BM floods the market with affordable RAW cinema cameras, Kineraw still has a chance to gain marketshare by dropping Kineraw Mini to $2K. It would be a desperate move, but one that could pay off in the long run. They have a chance now to use BM's delays to their advantage, it would be much more difficult to gain RAW marketshare later.

[markm]

I think if they lower the price right now maybe by selling just the camera body at the advertised price with say a six months  period with those accessories that are necessary for free and see how that goes.

 

Small window of opportunity for them to fight back.

[Andrew Reid]

There's no need to drop the price. KineRAW MINI is not a BMCC clone. It is getting a 4K upgrade path and has a better image than the 4K BMCC. That's worth paying a bit more for.

[HurtinMinorKey]

There's no need to drop the price. KineRAW MINI is not a BMCC clone. It is getting a 4K upgrade path and has a better image than the 4K BMCC. That's worth paying a bit more for.

 

Do we even know what the BM4K image will look like, yet? Will we ever? :o

[zephyrnoid]

So I was on mark it seems. Kinefinity has purloined elements from several other cameras and mashed them together. Brilliant! Add ProRes,serious Audio Inputs and here's your RED Epic killer. Ouch! Now we know why Jim Jannard is pouting. This can't be good for RED.
I can't wait for MiniProRes/RAW ;) ... and a 6K camera I just wish they would make the sensors upgradable rather than force complete chasis replacements. This video sounds like an accelerated RED Digital roadmap.With the speed that the sensors are moving along; they should focus on sensor module replacements at a nominal upgrade cost. The external deck looks unweildy. Sounds like some of RED's design team should visit China ;)

https://vimeo.com/72841566#

[markm]

There's no need to drop the price. KineRAW MINI is not a BMCC clone. It is getting a 4K upgrade path and has a better image than the 4K BMCC. That's worth paying a bit more for.

So you're saying they are selling well. Oh okay as long as they are. Obviously the general public see it differently to me and kinefinity are not on the titanic waiting for it to go down.

[jcs]

Played with the DNGs- Canon just handles colors better. I can tweak the KineRAW to look closer to the Canon, but takes a bit of work (a lot more than saturation). Same thing happens when I shoot with the FS700 and 5D3... Use the 5D3 shots to try to get the FS700 to color match (FS700 has better resolution, slomo, pro audio but can't match 5D3 colors).

[Andrew Reid]

So you're saying they are selling well. Oh okay as long as they are. Obviously the general public see it differently to me and kinefinity are not on the titanic waiting for it to go down.

 

Can you read? I'm saying they are better featured. Never mentioned sales at all!

[sherwinlau]

How is the low-light performance of the mini?  Is it the same as the S35?  Will you be able to upload any more tests in the near future?

 

Thanks

[Andrew Reid]

Yes same as S35 in low light as it is a raw camera, and has the same sensor.

[markm]

Can you read? I'm saying they are better featured. Never mentioned sales at all!

If they are better featured then they will have their own niche in the market. The point being they don't as they are in direct competition with BMC As for slow motion 4K sensor and a new recorder for 4k as well as cineraw is skirting the issues Those who buy these cameras want raw and prores that the kineraw doesnt do and is a fantastic BMC second choice as for cineraw on the mini its offline and anyway easy if you want to take DNGs to cineraw anyway. But then again cineraw is compression that in the early stages you don't want. I had an email this morning advertising a 3T hard drive for £75  Who cares about saving space when hard drives are coming down. If I really did want cineraw I would buy it for a BMC.

Your argument for the Kinefinity being able to compete with BMD is fatally flawed. My answer was to be non confrontational However the proof lies in the future in davy jones locker which I'm afraid to say is where the Kinefinity IN MY opinion will end up 

[mtheory]

Affordable S35 RAW is a very specific market that noone has tapped into yet ( except 7D, lol ) , and it is also the largest market because it is closest to traditional 35mm and that's what most independent filmmakers aiming for theatrical distribution will go for. 

 

BMPC 4K ( Built in 4K Recorder, Built in Monitor ) = $4,000

KINERAW Mini + 4K Recorder + Monitor = $7,000

 

At $4000, you will be able to get a Kineraw with an external monitor, and still have only half the resolution of BMPC and no global shutter in the same price range. So you'd have to choose between 4K RAW + Global Shutter vs 2K RAW + 100fps.

 

Tough choice. 

[Andrew Reid]

The BMPC 4K is ergonomically poor and the weight is all on a narrow plain, which isn't something that can easily be solved by rigging, except for adding yet more weight.

 

What I enjoyed about the MINI is that it is so small and light.

 

The image quality of the sensor in the BMPC is suspect. Some people have said 8 stops usable dynamic range and ISO 400 native. That's a really noisy, dynamically range challenged chip. I don't see how they can clean up the output to get 12 stops from it. Global shutter has a big trade off for image quality, unless you're investing millions in bespoke CMOS technology like Sony with the F55.

 

So I'd rather have a rolling shutter and better image quality. That's the main factor for me in the BMPC vs KineRAW MINI debate.

 

I think if the KineRAW had a Canon badge on it, the internet would be on fire.

[markm]

The Kineraw mini is 3199 euros PLUS VAT Then you need to buy THEIR SSD drives which are 500 euro's for 250gb and you would want two especially as cineraw is offline that you have to purchase separately. Also you have to purchase their battery handgrip lens mount and monitor separately.

By the time you add shipping and VAT you are paying an awful lot more than a BMC. there are a lack of reviews and a concern over what happens if things go wrong. A chance that many would be more happy about if the price was competitive with the BMC. Unfortunatley for Kinefinity BMD have cornered the market here.