Some news on BMPCC - Bloom clip & blooming artifacts

[cantsin]

Yes.   In fact I'm working on a project right now that's R3D based.

The problem is this: you're doing it wrong.   That or you have unrealistic expectations.

 

If you're editing with raw, you're doing it wrong, most of the time.  R3D is kinda cool though because even without fancy schmancy hardware its built in proxy technology allows it to be edited in realtime on less-than-state-of-the-art hardware.  I'm playing back realtime RED edits off a FW800 G-Drive that's not even a striped array.  From a Premiere timeline.  Booya.

 

In fact, I do know what you are talking about. But: Cinema DNG does not provide the proxy workflow that you describe, at least not without resorting to a debayered format like ProRes or DNxHD. Either you accept pain-in-the-neck round trips, or you work around the issue by converting into an alternative format/workflow like Cineform Raw. Yes, Red's workflow is nice, and so is Cineform, but both of them are based on a completely different (=wavelet) codec technology than Cinema DNG. Cinema DNG is just sequences of undebayered (TIFF-like) bitmaps, either uncompressed or compressed with a simple algorithm like LZW or JPEG. Wavelet codecs, on the other hand, provide built-in proxies (so to speak) without the need of recompression into a debayered format.

 

One of the reasons why Blackmagic's cameras are cheap, besides using off-the-shelf industrial camera sensors, is that DNG is free of patents and license costs. Red's codec is proprietary, and a Cineform Raw user license costs about one third of the Pocket camera.

 

In other words: raw â‰  raw.

 

(And no need to react rudely.)

[Bioskop.Inc]

You know what?

I'm just itching to get my hands on a Pocket & shoot something in a codec that isn't H264.

I got my fingers & toes crossed for the end of the month for a looming project - i can dream can't i?

Orbs!

To Raw or not to Raw?

Next you'll be arguing over the fact its a S16mm sensor...Jeez!

[Sean Cunningham]

For DNG: transcode to proxies.  That simple.  Get a log-n-capture utility that manages the process for you if you're not going to do it yourself or don't have a slave, er, assistant to do the grunt work for you.  Edit with the proxies and then conform.  It's really not a big deal.  We've been working in a very narrow period of history where this was not simply standard-operating-procedure.

 

I'll offer not all content warrants raw, sure.  Given a camera that does both raw and ProRes, it would be hard to make myself go with a half measure in the event the content actually warrants more than just shooting with an h.264 solution like the GH2.

[hmcindie]

For DNG: transcode to proxies.  That simple.  Get a log-n-capture utility that manages the process for you if you're not going to do it yourself or don't have a slave, er, assistant to do the grunt work for you.  Edit with the proxies and then conform.  It's really not a big deal.  

 

I'm trying to conform footage out from Rawanizer (mp4 proxies) to the DNG sequences in AE and...it's hell. For some reason AE cannot automatically link them and I can't even select more than one item at a time to conform.

 

Yes in theory, it should be simple. Reality sometimes is quite different.

[cantsin]

Well, latest news is that Adobe promises us salvation for native Cinema DNG editing with the forthcoming Mercury Engine/Premiere/AE update. But it doesn't look like the proxy workflow will be improved at all. (While, with REDcode's and Cineform's wavelot codecs, you get automatic low-bitrate proxies just by decoding/playing back the original camera files at a lower quality setting. So we'll still wrestle with the issues that hmcindie describes, or need really potent PC hardware for real-time editing of native DNG.)

[Axel]

@cantsin
As you know, I only reluctantly admit any advantage of Premiere over FCP X. But full support of raw would be indeed great.

What does it mean? Can you open your native Premiere timeline in Speedgrade?

With Resolve, there is yet another problem with imported edits from 3d-party NLEs: It doesn't read retiming. Whereas with ProRes it is no problem to bake in the changes before XML export, with raw you'd have to grade first and then apply the speed mapping later.

For a television show, you may not need retiming, but for cinema, it's essential, basic.

I am not sure, if Premiere allows to bake in the time changes with DNG. Anyway, I hope so for you. And of course, it's just about time for FCP X to fully support the format. Playback alone doesn't help.

On system requirements: It doesn't seem to be too hard to play back raw. With editing, the data rate and the file sizes become bottlenecks, and I fear, everybody who really wants a 'native' workflow will need insanely fast machines.

[Sean Cunningham]

I'm trying to conform footage out from Rawanizer (mp4 proxies) to the DNG sequences in AE and...it's hell. For some reason AE cannot automatically link them and I can't even select more than one item at a time to conform.

 

Yes in theory, it should be simple. Reality sometimes is quite different.

 

You're doing it wrong.  That's the unfortunate reality here.

 

I don't use those tools to make proxies but I can easily see at least part of the logical flaw in your workflow.  You're exporting or linking between two packages while expecting the second to recognize and interpret proxies from the first.  You need to re-link to the original footage in your editor (PPro), moving from offline to online status, before moving on to your finishing app (AE).  

 

Then you live-link over or use the PPro project file import option in AE.  Don't get ahead of yourself.  Think through the process.  Regardless of the fact that Adobe wrote both PPro and AE they're two completely different programs.  Any idea that they do or can function as one giant app that knows and understands what's happening in the other is a complete illusion.  Adobe has never been that careful with either the "big picture" or one for sweating the details (maybe CC will eventually help).

 

edit: oh, and there are plenty of other techniques for re-linking from proxy to online footage, if you've screwed up, by exploiting a given app's want to find and re-link footage after an XML import, PPro to AE import, etc.  

 

Naming the proxies the same, in an identical file+folder structure away from the location of the online footage is not only smart from a data management point of view but also for the offline-to-online swap.  All you have to do is move the master proxy folder, drop it into a subfolder, disconnect the drive it's housed on, etc moving it away from where any project or XML file thinks it should live.  The app will want to know where the footage is and so you point it to the online footage and, voila.

 

Similarly, in the case of exotic formats like .dng or .r3d or even battling the old 3GOP "digital rain" shenanigans in CS6, juggling a start with .mts and a finish in .mov that's even easier.  It's a simple matter of search-and-replace in an XML file.  In fact, there are all sorts of user-created hells for re-linking that can be made manageable by manipulating the XML and exploiting a given application's want to make sense of what you're trying to accomplish.

 

edit2: but none of this replaces the need to completely test your pipeline and ensure that you actually understand the process you're undertaking before starting a job.  All these tools tend to try to anticipate the user failing to prepare but the best course of action is to not fail to prepare. 

[hmcindie]

You're doing it wrong.  That's the unfortunate reality here.

 

I don't use those tools to make proxies but I can easily see at least part of the logical flaw in your workflow.  You're exporting or linking between two packages while expecting the second to recognize and interpret proxies from the first.  You need to re-link to the original footage in your editor (PPro), moving from offline to online status, before moving on to your finishing app (AE).  

 

A) Not a job, personal project so I can take as much time as I want.

 

B ) This basically is testing a pipeline.

 

 

C) This EXACT same method has worked with all other formats and files I've tried before.

 

And finally

 

D) Premiere doesn't take DNG in so everything you just said is wrong because I have to do the relinking elsewhere anyway. Either in AE or Resolve. Now I'm in AE because I'm doing lots more than simple color grading.

 

AE is basically bugging out because I've never encountered a situation where the relink footage option is greyed out when selecting multiple files but still works when selecting one at a time. There is no way to find that sort off stuff out unless you try it first. Thinking it through? How the f are people supposed to find out that relinking bugs out without trying? There is no way to think myself into finding stuff that doesn't work.

 

And AE IS interpreting the proxies correctly. Offcourse I expect it to work. 

[Sean Cunningham]

If Premiere can't load the DNG then the proxies aren't really linked to the online footage in a reliable, testable manner, are they?  So you're assuming a methodology that worked before, with formats you could load into Premiere would work.  This somehow who's fault?  It would have been nice if it just worked, sure, but you can't ever assume that when dealing with a new and unknown.

 

Knowing that you can't bring your online footage into Premiere, removing it from equation, means something like, oh yeah, XML, which I did mention.  That's why it's there.

[Axel]

A short film from Germany, shot with the Pocket. They speak english, because Germany isn't exactly the home of cinematographic talent, and the latter has to be invited from elsewhere. However, it's graded rather extremely, but it has a story and not just landscape or cats. One of the marks of cinema.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ_INEKUQpA#t=22

[Sean Cunningham]

I don't particularly like the way the male actor looks in his close-ups (combiniation of the grade + lighting...the Hemsworth CUs in the Rush trailer look similarly flat) but otherwise it's very well done.