Blind Color Science Test

[Emanuel]

6 hours ago, androidlad said:

Apparently @MaxYuryev just joined, welcome ?

Apparently, just lurking to say he is here in Andrew's home amongst us...?

Jon Pais who liked him is not here anymore... So MY never popped up. I wonder if Andrew would love him, he would join the forum LOL : -)

[newfoundmass]

What happened to Jon Pais? 

[MaxYuryev]

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

Apparently, just lurking to say he is here in Andrew's home amongst us...?

Jon Pais who liked him is not here anymore... So MY never popped up. I wonder if Andrew would love him, he would join the forum LOL : -)

I actually wrote a lengthy response about 12 hours ago. Maybe it didn’t get approved or maybe it’s hidden (it’s marked as hidden)

[thebrothersthre3]

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

What happened to Jon Pais? 

banned I am pretty sure

[Geoff_L]

13 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

banned I am pretty sure

I remember he left himself, without being  banned, and then wrote an article about Andrew https://jonpais.wordpress.com/2018/10/17/andrew-reid-is-an-idiot/

I now often come across his messages on dpreview and, as yesterday, on sonyalpharumors, where he got shot by others, for... being himself as usual ahah

[Papiskokuji]

15 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I used to be a regular viewer of Max but yeah, over the last two or so years he has done quite a few tiny things that made me question his credibility overall, particularly in his camera comparisons. 

The blatant dishonesty with the thumbnail kinda sums it up. 

I find this test to be very poor ! Testing skin tones in a forest with green reflexion everywhere, or in backlit situations... Nevertheless I think Max is being honest. I’m puzzled by the permanent suspicion toward people. Regarding his supposed Sony bias, he used to shoot with two gh5. He made a very positive review about the X-T3 and the blackmagic pocket 4K as well.

And he’s in his own right to shoot with Sony like many pros do. He won’t be switching cameras between every video and the workflow that comes with it. He settled on Sonys (which I’m not even sure). Caleb shoots on the GH5s, Matti on Canon... Everytime you say something nice about a camera, you are biased. I have every camera brand, I just did a review (mostly positive but fair) of the bmpcc4k and it didn’t miss. You always get the « he works for blackmagic » comment... If only. It’s ridiculous.

Max tests are always questionned. But I always come to the same conclusion with his sharpness, low light and autofocus tests. Sometimes his tests lack details but it’s almost impossible to cover it all.

I remember all the suspicion his gh5 vs a6500 AF test raised. It wad insane. People couldn’t accept the simple fact that the GH5 has a terrible autofocus and Sony PDAF is way ahead. Canon being the best.

Give the guy a break, his last video is not his best but his tests have been very useful for a lot of people and take a lot of time to do.

There are way worst youtubers out there !

[thebrothersthre3]

6 hours ago, Papiskokuji said:

I find this test to be very poor ! Testing skin tones in a forest with green reflexion everywhere, or in backlit situations... Nevertheless I think Max is being honest. I’m puzzled by the permanent suspicion toward people. Regarding his supposed Sony bias, he used to shoot with two gh5. He made a very positive review about the X-T3 and the blackmagic pocket 4K as well.

And he’s in his own right to shoot with Sony like many pros do. He won’t be switching cameras between every video and the workflow that comes with it. He settled on Sonys (which I’m not even sure). Caleb shoots on the GH5s, Matti on Canon... Everytime you say something nice about a camera, you are biased. I have every camera brand, I just did a review (mostly positive but fair) of the bmpcc4k and it didn’t miss. You always get the « he works for blackmagic » comment... If only. It’s ridiculous.

Max tests are always questionned. But I always come to the same conclusion with his sharpness, low light and autofocus tests. Sometimes his tests lack details but it’s almost impossible to cover it all.

I remember all the suspicion his gh5 vs a6500 AF test raised. It wad insane. People couldn’t accept the simple fact that the GH5 has a terrible autofocus and Sony PDAF is way ahead. Canon being the best.

Give the guy a break, his last video is not his best but his tests have been very useful for a lot of people and take a lot of time to do.

There are way worst youtubers out there !

I agree. Putting out free information on youtube isn't easy and lets face it most people watching this stuff aren't looking for the amount of info people on here are. Why cater to an audience that isn't there.

[Andrew Reid]

All comments on the forum by new users start off in a moderation queue, and until they're approved they're automatically hidden by the server. Without this important control, the forum will have a daily stream of Viagra posts.

Max's first post is on page 1, and he's explained some of the test and admitted the poster frame is manipulated to catch the attention of YouTube's clickbait algorithm controlled audience.

I do admit my reaction was a bit harsh and it's nice of Max to finally say hello, but if he's bought Pro Color previously, he's clearly been around lurking and probably using the blog for inspiration for quite a few years now, without bothering to strike up any kind of friendship, email, or to my knowledge any mention on his YouTube channel. So that's not very endearing.

Either way, I just find it difficult to trust somebody who tweaks the facts in pursuit of clicks. It's nothing personal. It's the internet and it's happening all the time... and I do not respect it.

I don't know why Jon's being mentioned all of a sudden. Jon used to be a moderator here, until he started being weird and aggressive to pretty much everybody, then he turned into a Sony fanboy and got even more aggressive, had a fight with Jon Brawley and lost his mod privileges. This was entirely his own fault. Then I finally kicked him out after he argued in every thread with Ed David who I consider a far more talented filmmaker and a much nicer person, so from that point on it was Goodbye, and you see the result now from Jon with his bitter words in his Vietnamese diary.

I don't shy away from confrontation with people I think are bad for business, or bad for the community of EOSHD.

I'd rather confront.

Same with lies and clickbait. Confront, expose and guide people to the facts.

 

[Emanuel]

13 hours ago, MaxYuryev said:

I actually wrote a lengthy response about 12 hours ago. Maybe it didn’t get approved or maybe it’s hidden (it’s marked as hidden)

Jon would love to meet you here : )

@Andrew Reid Nice to see you keep going your posting without the usual political correctness to manipulate and distort some crucial perspectives to better retain clean and straightforward. You have no fear to say what you think. As much as Jon's. I admit I have a weakness for such attitude... : D In any case, Jon was very committed to publicly disapprove any criticism to his liking. Reason why your social friendship came to an end, unfortunately, I'm afraid that was inevitable, if not then, it would have happened sooner or later.

No matter how a diversity of scopes can diverge, knowledge and different angles to share are power (E : -)

[Deadcode]

14 hours ago, MaxYuryev said:

I actually wrote a lengthy response about 12 hours ago. Maybe it didn’t get approved or maybe it’s hidden (it’s marked as hidden)

Run for you life Max! On this forum the same 6 people arguing about the same stuff in every topic. You will have to explain yourself after every comparison you do (you dont want to know what people talked about you after the BMPCC4k-Z7-A73-XT3-EosR comparison video...). Im following you since 2014 and  I think you are doing a great job. Avoid these "experts" if you want to sleep well.

Ofc there are some people here who knows a lot and can give you proper advice, but nowdays they are watching from the shadows ...

[thebrothersthre3]

I have to say Jon came off as very aggressive. Not that he didn't often have goods points and I don't think was a bad guy. After all we are just talking about cameras here, I don't think anyone really needs to be labeled a good or bad person, this isn't war!

 I think people have a tendency to just go with the flow. So when someone like Andrew goes against the tide and starts calling people out he might be perceived as a jerk rather than someone simply saying what he actually thinks. 

[Emanuel]

People tend to see anyone outside as a jerk rather than to take a look on their own belly button...

 

1 hour ago, Deadcode said:

Run for you life Max! On this forum the same 6 people arguing about the same stuff in every topic. You will have to explain yourself after every comparison you do (you dont want to know what people talked about you after the BMPCC4k-Z7-A73-XT3-EosR comparison video...). Im following you since 2014 and  I think you are doing a great job. Avoid these "experts" if you want to sleep well.

Ofc there are some people here who knows a lot and can give you proper advice, but nowdays they are watching from the shadows ...

Oh sigh! Here we go with some other fanboy attitude...? This time, fan's club related, not addressed to cameras?

God is in heaven! Don't frighten the man from your side! LOL

Pretty inaccurate and hostile on your (mis)judgement over this forum. BTW what are you exactly doing among us? You're doing now a misuse and disservice to this community you don't feel connected with.

 

I suggest if anyone has any stone against Andrew or someone else, PM box is your friend. Please spare us of your shitty personal agendas. Thank you! : -)

[kye]

On 6/15/2019 at 2:54 AM, MaxYuryev said:

Wow really harsh words...

The test is not perfect, but I'm not sure what test would be. When planning for this video I had a lot of thought on how to do it, but settled on this method since it has the least user input. As you know, both the Fuji and Sony can be tweaked like crazy inside of camera, and of course in post but I chose to mess with the cameras the least. I'm not sure why you say the results are unstated or unknown. I explained the profiles, settings, and why I used them at the start. Of course the with a few presses the results would change, that why I tried not to do customize things so we can see the cameras colors instead of my tweaks. This is not a perfect test, but I did try to make it a fair one. I shot different exposures to get them to best match up since you can't just get the same exposure by matching settings. 

The first 4 tests are right out of the camera just like you would grab and shoot (other than setting the correct WB preset). The next 6 where using a flatter subdued profile. Sony is terrible with their profiles but PP6 is fairly popular and is what I use most often. It also reminds me a bit of Eterna which is also popular. With both I usually add contrast and saturation (for my taste) but for this test I wanted to keep Eterna at the default and only boosted PP6 to match up with Eterna or else the Sony would be really really flat. I think the contrast and saturation was matched up quite well, some colors pop more on the Sony and others on Fuji but the point is to compare colors and each camera has its own profiles. I could have used more profiles or added LOG, but then I don't think the results would be as accurate since LOG really depends on how you grade and the video would be really long and most people would end up not doing the test for themselves which is the point.

Yes the thumbnail was exaggerated. Unfortunately unlike having your own site on YT we are at the Marits of the algorithm and if the thumbnail is flat then your videos dies with 5K views instead of 50-100K. 

None of the tests were touched. If they would you would think I being so called "Sony biased" would make the Sony look better LOL, but I'm not in that game. Like I said at the end I prefer the fuji colors and they are definitely ahead if you're not going to do color correction/grading in post. Surprisingly a majority of people preferred the Sony look. 

I am not a Fuji hater, I have reviewed them really highly. Saying things like "If the fuji is too green... You know what to do" makes it seem like you're Fuji biased. The Sony's can be tweaked too and you have guides for that (which I purchased) thank you btw. 

Whats funny is if you see my comparisons where I say Fuji is better I am called a Fuji loved and biased. Same thing goes for the Sony videos, the Panasonic videos, and back in the day when I was praising the NX1 (which I still own 3 of btw) I was told that I'm really biased against Canon, Sony, and Panasonic for praising the AF and Colors of the NX1. Sure I have my biases as we all do (to not admit it means your a liar) but typically they are preferences and I try to point those out and why I have them, and if you watch my comparison i'll often point out the flaws of Sony and areas where other brands really excel. 

Anyways, if you would be willing to do a similar color science test I would absolutely love to see it, and if you have constructive criticism on how I could improve in future versions of this video (say a Sony vs Canon video) I would love to hear and implement it. 

Hi Max, welcome to the forums! 

Things here can be harsh, but it's more that people are passionate about their perspectives rather than just being nasty, so I hope you can get past the initial impressions and stick around.  You'll never question if people are being honest with you, and people do spend a lot of time agreeing and helping each other too, and nasty people are invited to leave, so it's not toxic like most other forums, IMHO.  I've really enjoyed your videos and you're definitely one of the most thorough reviewers with tech performance and the like, so thanks for your work, it's been both entertaining and informative.

In terms of how you did the camera tests, I agree with a straight-out-of-the-box test.  It's useful to see what the manufacturer has suggested and what many people will use.
I think the second most worthwhile test is to set exposure and WB with a grey-card.  In a way the out-of-the-box test is for people that don't know or care, and the grey card is for people that do.  The third (and most difficult) test is to try and tweak profiles to get a good result, and that's the one fraught with peril, because it's going to come down to taste unless you get objective about it, perhaps placing skintones at a given IRE, etc, but if done well it's probably a 40 minute video exploring all combinations across many scenarios with a comprehensive analysis and recommendations component.

This audience would have preferred a grey-card style test, as perhaps the majority of people that post here are either professional film-makers of some kind and the rest of us are ultra-serious amateurs (like myself).  This forum also has a bit of an issue with what the YT algorithm does to creatives - heavily pushing you guys into low-quality disposable first-to-publish click-bait industry-shill type content designed to help brands sell cameras to bros who need to be told they need a "FF sensor" "fast glass" for awesome "bokeh" great "colour science" awesome "codec" and "ND filters" and a gimbal and "buy my LUT the link is in the description" to make "cinematic" videos, and insert more meaningless buzzwords here.  (and never mind that cinema was glorious for decades without any of these...). I realise that you have resisted these pressures more than many others, which is to your credit and why I'm still a subscriber.

[Edit: I think your hardware performance videos are excellent and have been well received on here in the past, it's just that this video was a bit subjective and click-bait-ey so that's why it got the negative reaction.  Talking about colour science is a difficult topic and one that this forum is pretty sensitive to because the vast majority of YTers don't know anything about colour science beyond buying a LUT and the results they produce are so terrible that the only conclusions that we can draw is that that particular person didn't bring out the best of that camera, and we have to wait for someone who knows what they're doing to show the potential of the equipment.  So you hit a nerve basically...]

Keep up the good work and I hope you stick around  

[Castorp]

I’m sorry but Max videos are clickbaity and toxic. As are most Youtubers like Tony and Chelsea, Fro, and all the other ones I can’t even remember because I stay away from that cynical BS. 

The exaggerated thumbnail is shameful. 

There is no editorial integrity whatsoever with most Youtubers ( with rare exceptions like Mattias Burling).

Max makes money from making basically flame videos that pose as “tests”. All spiced up with manipulative and inflammatory titles, thumbnails and content. 

[Emanuel]

Can I push half way or even the two thirds like button on this one?

Well said BTW : -)

[Andrew Reid]

18 hours ago, kye said:

Hi Max, welcome to the forums! 

Keep up the good work and I hope you stick around  

The only time these "internet celebrities" join a proper forum like this is when they hear their name mentioned.

[Emanuel]

LOL Let alone when not in the way to meet the best of (their own) expectations... ; )

[kye]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The only time these "internet celebrities" join a proper forum like this is when they hear their name mentioned.

You're probably right, but there's no harm in being welcoming.  If we can influence any of them to do tests with a grey-card then instead of lamenting the decline of industry journalism we can enjoy videos that are useful and informative, but that's probably not going to happen if all we do is unconstructive hyperbolic criticisms.

[Video Hummus]

17 hours ago, Castorp said:

I’m sorry but Max videos are clickbaity and toxic. As are most Youtubers like Tony and Chelsea, Fro, and all the other ones I can’t even remember because I stay away from that cynical BS. 

The exaggerated thumbnail is shameful. 

There is no editorial integrity whatsoever with most Youtubers ( with rare exceptions like Mattias Burling).

Max makes money from making basically flame videos that pose as “tests”. All spiced up with manipulative and inflammatory titles, thumbnails and content. 

Max doesn’t even come close to Tony and Fro. While I agree perhaps the tests were flawed and not scientific enough for this audience I wouldn’t use that same brush on all of Max’s videos. I find his hardware tests focused around video editing helpful and a timesaver.

I would also say the system is horribly broken if Max has to alter facts to get clicks. 

I also share Andrew’s distaste for YouTubes influencer bullshit that goes on, like claiming impartiality when they receive free gear for “good words” (see Matti Haapojas “Most Underated camera of 2019” video; hint the answer is in the title. We aren’t even half way through 2019 yet) But they are just riding the wave before it comes crashing down and they are out a job when YouTube cancels their channel or people get tired of navigating the bullshit.

[Mako Sports]

4 hours ago, kye said:

You're probably right, but there's no harm in being welcoming.  

yeah seeing that reply was sorta off-putting