Sigma FP

[Thomas Hill]

On 8/10/2022 at 1:00 PM, GUDZON said:

Do I need to use additional presets after conversion?

Video here (Youtube)

I wouldn't change anything about your process, looks great to me. And so does the one titled My N's (haven't watched any others yet).

[GUDZON]

On 8/11/2022 at 10:19 PM, Thomas Hill said:

I wouldn't change anything about your process, looks great to me. And so does the one titled My N's (haven't watched any others yet).

Thanks, "My N's" was graded the same way, but for shooting I used ND filter, which changes colors a little bit. Anyway during the year of using sigma fp I continue research its possibilities and this activity brings me pleasure every time I start grading footages

[FHDcrew]

Well I think I’ve nearly decided on selling my Nikon Z6. I’m sick of having to rig it out just to get 10 bit log. The internal image isn’t cutting it for me. I tried a DIY internal log profile using the Nikon PC editor, but while it helps with dynamic range, skin tones turn to mush. And the flat profile while nice for tonality doesn’t hold a candle to NLOG with Dynamic Range

 

So I’m considering giving up image stabilization and decent AF, for the tiny formfactor of the Sigma FP and its glorious, politics-free Uncompressed CinemaDNG workflow. I would plan to not rig the camera any more than just a tiny cage, possibly an SSD mount, and a niceyrig mini-grip. Alternatively I may go with a used Panasonic S5, and use native Panasonic L-mount glass. I feel that from what I have seen online, the AF, while not perfect, would suit my needs. And I feel I could live with some of the pulsing people complain about. Doesn’t bother me. But I only really mean the micro-pulsing as shown in this video (I can even stand the 4k 25p V-LOG). To any Panasonic S5 owners, does the pulsing ever get worse than this?  If not then the AF system will work for me. If I am unsuccessful in selling my Z6 for the price I’m hoping for, I’ll probably end up with a used Fuji XT3 and the tiny viltrox primes.

 

 

[kye]

13 minutes ago, FHDcrew said:

Well I think I’ve nearly decided on selling my Nikon Z6. I’m sick of having to rig it out just to get 10 bit log. The internal image isn’t cutting it for me. I tried a DIY internal log profile using the Nikon PC editor, but while it helps with dynamic range, skin tones turn to mush. And the flat profile while nice for tonality doesn’t hold a candle to NLOG with Dynamic Range

So I’m considering giving up image stabilization and decent AF, for the tiny formfactor of the Sigma FP and its glorious, politics-free Uncompressed CinemaDNG workflow. I would plan to not rig the camera any more than just a tiny cage, possibly an SSD mount, and a niceyrig mini-grip. Alternatively I may go with a used Panasonic S5, and use native Panasonic L-mount glass. I feel that from what I have seen online, the AF, while not perfect, would suit my needs. And I feel I could live with some of the pulsing people complain about. Doesn’t bother me. But I only really mean the micro-pulsing as shown in this video (I can even stand the 4k 25p V-LOG). To any Panasonic S5 owners, does the pulsing ever get worse than this?  If not then the AF system will work for me. If I am unsuccessful in selling my Z6 for the price I’m hoping for, I’ll probably end up with a used Fuji XT3 and the tiny viltrox primes.

I can't blame you for wanting to downsize from a Z6 with Ninja Star, but I question if the FP will do what you hope it will.

Firstly, the FP has limitations on what resolutions/frame-rates it can record internally, with an external SSD required for the rest (violating your size / rigging criteria).  Secondly, the FP screen doesn't articulate so depending on how you shoot you might require an external monitor.  There is an EVF but it's an add-on.

Also, there are very few lenses in the L-mount system that have OIS, and the FP has no IBIS, which means that if you go down the route of not having either then you would most likely require a larger rig to get steady enough shots.

The FP is a bit of a specialist tool in this sense - the image is spectacular and codecs potentially glorious but it's not an all-in-one shooter that will fit around you and your needs like many other cameras are.  It's a bit of a diva.

[FHDcrew]

22 minutes ago, kye said:

I can't blame you for wanting to downsize from a Z6 with Ninja Star, but I question if the FP will do what you hope it will.

Firstly, the FP has limitations on what resolutions/frame-rates it can record internally, with an external SSD required for the rest (violating your size / rigging criteria).  Secondly, the FP screen doesn't articulate so depending on how you shoot you might require an external monitor.  There is an EVF but it's an add-on.

Also, there are very few lenses in the L-mount system that have OIS, and the FP has no IBIS, which means that if you go down the route of not having either then you would most likely require a larger rig to get steady enough shots.

The FP is a bit of a specialist tool in this sense - the image is spectacular and codecs potentially glorious but it's not an all-in-one shooter that will fit around you and your needs like many other cameras are.  It's a bit of a diva.

Very true. And I’d like to avoid rigging it, aside from just the cage. So maybe a Panasonic S5 or Fuji XT3 is a better option. But IDK despite all the quirks, the tiny size and true cinema dng raw is really attractive!

[webrunner5]

If you are just using it for yourself and not business why not. But trying to make a buck with it too many limitations. Think of it as a newer OG BMPCC and that is sort of a nice thing.

And you could do the tilting screen thing.

[MrSMW]

Heart would choose/have chosen, FP.

Head though, S5. Easily. Especially if you do not wish to rig it out.

Pulsing can still be there if you;

A: use AF all the time and

B: don’t tweak your AF settings. Mine are -1 and -3 respectively.

How I use all my Lumix cameras these days is to use AF to acquire focus and then immediately flip the lens to manual focus.

If the camera is on a tripod and I am tracking and need reliable AF, ideally a native lens plus f4-8.

These are of course ‘workarounds’ and it’s really only in faster/fast paced forward tracking there can ever be an issue with the subject actually remaining in focus, but used as above, works for me.

[FHDcrew]

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Heart would choose/have chosen, FP.

Head though, S5. Easily. Especially if you do not wish to rig it out.

Pulsing can still be there if you;

A: use AF all the time and

B: don’t tweak your AF settings. Mine are -1 and -3 respectively.

How I use all my Lumix cameras these days is to use AF to acquire focus and then immediately flip the lens to manual focus.

If the camera is on a tripod and I am tracking and need reliable AF, ideally a native lens plus f4-8.

These are of course ‘workarounds’ and it’s really only in faster/fast paced forward tracking there can ever be an issue with the subject actually remaining in focus, but used as above, works for me.

Thanks for the input. My work consists of a LOT of lit, controlled talking head sceneries (which I light myself) along with b-roll of events. In these cases, I feel like I could work within the limitations of the S5’s Autofocus.  Though I would want to shoot 4k 24p Full-Frame V-Log.  I’m very pleased about this, because that means I can get 99% of the Sony A7IV featureset plus some extra goodies for much cheaper. @MrSMW is the pulsing usually only about as bad as the worst-case scenario in the video I posted earlier? Do you have an example of some if the pulsing you ran into?

[Thomas Hill]

22 hours ago, kye said:

Firstly, the FP has limitations on what resolutions/frame-rates it can record internally, with an external SSD required for the rest (violating your size / rigging criteria).

Rigging, yes. Violating a size limit, no. FP plus the small HG-11 handgrip with the Lanparte T5C SSD holder screwed into the side of the handgrip is still tiny with a slightly fatter grip. With the this set-up, it's about the same size as the Fuji X-S10 (depending on your lens) but shorter because of the Fuji's hump on top.

 

22 hours ago, kye said:

Also, there are very few lenses in the L-mount system that have OIS

This is what I found the most annoying because Sigma has good stabilization in their EF 24-70mm (and others) but left it out of their L mount version.

As for the AF, I've shot a bit with the S5, also. They're both fine with acquiring initial focus as @MrSMW suggests but I wouldn't leave either of them in continuous for a single-cam talking head interview of any length.

[kye]

8 hours ago, Thomas Hill said:

Rigging, yes. Violating a size limit, no. FP plus the small HG-11 handgrip with the Lanparte T5C SSD holder screwed into the side of the handgrip is still tiny with a slightly fatter grip. With the this set-up, it's about the same size as the Fuji X-S10 (depending on your lens) but shorter because of the Fuji's hump on top.

Ah, you never know what peoples thresholds are.  When the person that shoots IMAX and the person that shoots RX100 both look at a 1DXmk3 the IMAX shooter sees an RX100 and the RX100 shooter sees an IMAX camera!

Yes, everything is shades of grey too, but sometimes people have hard limits due to certain criteria as well, such as fits in their bag or they can carry it around on their wrist all day without getting tired, etc.  A GoPro doubled in size is still a 100% increase, regardless of how large it was to begin with.

8 hours ago, Thomas Hill said:

This is what I found the most annoying because Sigma has good stabilization in their EF 24-70mm (and others) but left it out of their L mount version.

Yeah, due to the nasty hand-held scenarios I find myself in I need some form of stabilisation, so if it's not IBIS then it has to be OIS or I'm left to shoot short SS and stabilise in post.  I'd prefer not to have to stabilise in post as non-IS setups will have more rolling-shutter issues (that aren't cheaply compensated for in post) and my recent OIS experience not stabilising rotation also leaves that option a bit lacklustre.

I was surprised when I went to B&H and searched FF + L-mount + OIS and got almost no results at all.  Disappointing.  

The other challenge I've realised if I switch from IBIS to OIS is that lenses with OIS are likely to be focus-by-wire and that's not so good a MF experience, plus the FP isn't the best AF (and AF is still stupid sometimes).  

[BTM_Pix]

Panasonic 24-105 and 70-200 both have IS as do the longer Sigma zooms but thats about it.

However, the very practical two in one solution for the Fp (or anyone that doesn't want to take the risk of unpredictable and uncorrectable image artefacts from an IBIS system) is the Fotodiox EF-L adapter which lets you use the plethora of EF lenses that have IS, retains the AF capability and also includes a variable ND built into the adapter.

For reasons unexplained, but which come with dire warning from Fotodiox, just don't ever ever ever put it on a Leica camera.

 

[PannySVHS]

I second BTM´s suggestion of an EF-L adapter for OIS Canon lenses. One specific example: the native 24 105 in manual focus is not stepless, meaning jerky mini steps while focussing by hand. The Canon EF L 24 105 has a nice though a bit short manual focus which can override its hardish stops. It is stepless and makes manual focus even possible with a wireless focus system. It is also much nicer to touch. My native 24 105 L sits in the closet. Otherwise nice lens though but that stepping phenomenon in manual focus makes it not really enjoyable to me. Thinking about getting the Canon L for my speedboosted FS700. You can get one for as low as 300EUR on the used market.

[FHDcrew]

How viable do you think manual focusing on the Sigma Fp’s built-in screen would be?

 

Using that Fotodiox adapter paired with both the Canon 24-105 and the 35mm IS would be nice; two great lenses both with image stabilization, as well as singe shot AF if I want to film myself. 

[FHDcrew]

I guess I’m thinking for me I should consider sucking it up and going back to manual focus. It becomes easy with skill, and opens up many options that would otherwise be a non-starter if I continued to be like I am now, mainly relying on autofocus. I feel if one needs autofocus he needs to make other often undesirable compromises at this price point. Such as stepping down to a smaller sensor, rigging out an external recorder all the time (Nikon Z6) or giving up super high quality internal RAW. (BMPCC4k and Sigma FP)

[FHDcrew]

If there is a good F mount to L mount adapter, another option would be to repurpose my Tamron 45mm 1.8 lens which I use with my Z6 and the FTZ. It is image stabilized so it would fix the problem. 

[BTM_Pix]

35 minutes ago, FHDcrew said:

How viable do you think manual focusing on the Sigma Fp’s built-in screen would be?

Leaving aside the variables of the user, the focal length and aperture of the lens, lighting conditions etc it is no more difficult than on any other camera.

It has focus peaking in a range of colours and variable sized PIP so it has the tools to assist.

24 minutes ago, FHDcrew said:

If there is a good F mount to L mount adapter

As with most other mounts (aside from Nikon Z obviously) adapters with electronic control are very limited.

When I say limited I mean there is only one to my knowledge which is the Novoflex which works with a very limited range of the newer Nikkor E-type (as opposed to E series) lenses but no third party lenses.

Oh and its €600

https://www.novoflex.de/en/products-637/lens-adapters//adapterfinder-products/adapter-nikon-e-type-nikkor-lenses-to-leica-sl-cameras.html?rgerg=38

Manual focus adapters are, as with other mounts, cheap and abundant.

 

[MrSMW]

FP options =

Lumix 24-105mm f4 which has OIS

Fotodiox adapter with any EF-L Mount lenses and there are both zooms and primes from at least Canon & Tamron with OIS.

The Fotodiox adapter with built in ND is great so I’d look at pairing that with ‘your focal length ef Mount Canon or Tamron prime, or just going for the Lumix zoom?

[mercer]

After months... years of lusting over the Sigma FP, I finally found one at a price I felt comfortable with. Other than a few, short-lived, camera purchases, I haven't bought a camera, that I use regularly, in 5 and a half years... I still have a BMMCC, I bought nearly 3 years ago, sitting in a box on my shelf that I only used once to test the rig.

The FP arrived a couple days after I purchased it (big hat-tip to Used Photo Pro) and although I knew the measurements and saw plenty of photos of the camera, I was still really surprised by how tiny it is. It really isn't much bigger than a deck of cards. but out of the box, it also isn't very ergonomic, so I picked up a grip for it, and it now feels like an extension of my hand.

While I awaited its arrival, I researched lens adapter, SD cards and external drives and settled on a few that could arrive in time for the weekend. When Saturday came, I had two lens adapters (Minolta MD and Nikon F), an Angelbird 128gb card and a 1TB Sandisk Extreme SSD. I instantly chuckled at the sizes of the adapters and SSD compared to the camera and thought.... this is so dumb... why am I going to attach this huge SSD to this tiny camera ( FYI - the SSD is quite small actually but in comparison...) but I still packed it in my camera bag and found an extra L-bracket I had laying around so I could spit and glue something that resembled anything usable for my first, and possibly only, test of the FP... As some of you may know, I have been quite happy with my current camera and have felt a very little need, or want, to upgrade my camera.

When Saturday rolled around, I had my camera packed, I asked some questions to a fellow EOSHD member, and I was ready to test this miniature cinema camera. It was a gorgeous day for mid-November, so me and a friend drove to a familiar spot down the shore to see what this little thing could do.

Due to my distaste for external monitors, and tentacles of cords, my first intention was to shoot internally to the SD card, so I wanted to test the 8bit cDNG files, hoping they'd be good enough for B&W delivery or a quick downscale to 1080p. In fact, on my drive down, I convinced myself that I wasn't even going to test the external drive.

Since we got off to a late start, we quickly hit the boardwalk for some quick tests. After formatting the card and turning on the camera, I was a little shocked to see that a 128gb card, that cost more in dollars than its GB storage, only provided 10 minutes of footage. Now I already knew this, but seeing the ticking clock made me really slow down and think about what I was going to shoot. My main camera has been a 5D Mark III with Magic Lantern Raw, so I'm used to a lot of storage, but CF cards cost a bit less and provide a bit more footage than what the Sigma FP was offering...

Anyway, I walked around and took a handful of shots. With the camera strapped to my neck and Minolta 35mm 1.8 lens locked and loaded, I instantly enjoyed shooting with the FP. I had a few minutes to set the camera up the day before, so every function I needed was in a logical place for my brain and fingers...

So... the FP is a lot of fun to shoot with.

In fact, I am used to people looking at me, or stopping, when I shoot with my 5D, but the FP seemed impervious to the passersby as they went along their unseasonably warm, Saturday afternoon stroll down the busy boardwalk.

After a half hour, or so, and a trip to the bathroom (I drink a lot of coffee) we headed back to the car to hit the next spot. When we arrived, I decided to change lenses before we headed down a coastal trail. After a few shots with the Nikkor 28mm f/2 lens in 4K 8bit, I decided to give the 1080p a test. Other than an occasional slow motion shot, I'm not too interested in the 1080p from the FP... I already have a perfectly capable full frame, 1080p raw camera... but I was here and the card's storage was getting smaller and smaller... so why not? When I switched to 1080p, I gave a sigh of relief when I saw that the available storage nearly tripled. So we continued down the trail and I took a few shots...

One thing I noticed while shooting with the FP, at this point, was that although the LCD is sharp and bright, the footage didn't have any kind of discernible look. Perhaps it's the small size, or using the OFF picture profile for viewing, but with my 5D, you can really see the magic of the footage while shooting it. The Sigma did not have that. So the process didn't feel as fulfilling as it is when I shoot ML Raw with my 5D3.

But I carried on... until we quickly realized that we were surrounded by mosquitoes. I don't know if we were near a nest, or what, but we were surrounded by a swarm of these buzzing, blood sucking monsters. Apparently, nature forgot to tell them that it's mid-November in the Mid-Atlantic. Needless to say, we retreated back to the car. There was still enough daylight to hit one more spot, so we drove a couple miles down the road to the next spot.

As I was driving, I decided that I may as well test out the external drive and 12bit 4K raw. I was already here. So when we stopped, I quickly jury rigged the SSD to the L-Bracket with a zip tie and headed to the beach. With the sun in tis final descent, I decided to test out the Dual-ISO function of the FP... which is one of the reasons I've been so intrigued by the camera. I intend to shoot horror/thriller type of stuff, so the one downfall of my 5D is chroma noise in lowlight. I can push the camera to 1600 ISO, but it can get ugly very quick and you really need to push your blacks into oblivion to rid the footage of that the blocky, patch rainbow goo.

With my jury rigged SSD and the Minolta lens back on the FP, I turned on the camera and was surprised to see that it automatically changed itself to 4K 12ibit via the SSD and I was really happy to see that I had near an hour of possible footage... way more minutes of footage than daylight to shoot. But that's okay, I had ISO on my side...

TOO MUCH ISO... so I'm glad I tossed my VND into my pocket. After a few awkward screws, I was ready to see what 4K raw footage is...

Well... other than the awkward rig... the IQ in the LCD looked instantly better... but what was more surprising was how clean an image can look at 3200 ISO...

So as the sun set on the horizon, I hit record... over... and over again...

Sorry for the long post... but fast forward a couple hours and I was home. My girlfriend was taking a nap, so I quietly grabbed my laptop and uploaded the footage...

I won't bore you any further with my post details... hell... I'm still trying to figure them out, but I did manage to get a few shots in 4K raw that I didn't hate. Here are a few samples from my first outing with the FP... hopefully they don't suck too bad...

 

[FHDcrew]

40 minutes ago, mercer said:

After months... years of lusting over the Sigma FP, I finally found one at a price I felt comfortable with. Other than a few, short-lived, camera purchases, I haven't bought a camera, that I use regularly, in 5 and a half years... I still have a BMMCC, I bought nearly 3 years ago, sitting in a box on my shelf that I only used once to test the rig.

The FP arrived a couple days after I purchased it (big hat-tip to Used Photo Pro) and although I knew the measurements and saw plenty of photos of the camera, I was still really surprised by how tiny it is. It really isn't much bigger than a deck of cards. but out of the box, it also isn't very ergonomic, so I picked up a grip for it, and it now feels like an extension of my hand.

While I awaited its arrival, I researched lens adapter, SD cards and external drives and settled on a few that could arrive in time for the weekend. When Saturday came, I had two lens adapters (Minolta MD and Nikon F), an Angelbird 128gb card and a 1TB Sandisk Extreme SSD. I instantly chuckled at the sizes of the adapters and SSD compared to the camera and thought.... this is so dumb... why am I going to attach this huge SSD to this tiny camera ( FYI - the SSD is quite small actually but in comparison...) but I still packed it in my camera bag and found an extra L-bracket I had laying around so I could spit and glue something that resembled anything usable for my first, and possibly only, test of the FP... As some of you may know, I have been quite happy with my current camera and have felt a very little need, or want, to upgrade my camera.

When Saturday rolled around, I had my camera packed, I asked some questions to a fellow EOSHD member, and I was ready to test this miniature cinema camera. It was a gorgeous day for mid-November, so me and a friend drove to a familiar spot down the shore to see what this little thing could do.

Due to my distaste for external monitors, and tentacles of cords, my first intention was to shoot internally to the SD card, so I wanted to test the 8bit cDNG files, hoping they'd be good enough for B&W delivery or a quick downscale to 1080p. In fact, on my drive down, I convinced myself that I wasn't even going to test the external drive.

Since we got off to a late start, we quickly hit the boardwalk for some quick tests. After formatting the card and turning on the camera, I was a little shocked to see that a 128gb card, that cost more in dollars than its GB storage, only provided 10 minutes of footage. Now I already knew this, but seeing the ticking clock made me really slow down and think about what I was going to shoot. My main camera has been a 5D Mark III with Magic Lantern Raw, so I'm used to a lot of storage, but CF cards cost a bit less and provide a bit more footage than what the Sigma FP was offering...

Anyway, I walked around and took a handful of shots. With the camera strapped to my neck and Minolta 35mm 1.8 lens locked and loaded, I instantly enjoyed shooting with the FP. I had a few minutes to set the camera up the day before, so every function I needed was in a logical place for my brain and fingers...

So... the FP is a lot of fun to shoot with.

In fact, I am used to people looking at me, or stopping, when I shoot with my 5D, but the FP seemed impervious to the passersby as they went along their unseasonably warm, Saturday afternoon stroll down the busy boardwalk.

After a half hour, or so, and a trip to the bathroom (I drink a lot of coffee) we headed back to the car to hit the next spot. When we arrived, I decided to change lenses before we headed down a coastal trail. After a few shots with the Nikkor 28mm f/2 lens in 4K 8bit, I decided to give the 1080p a test. Other than an occasional slow motion shot, I'm not too interested in the 1080p from the FP... I already have a perfectly capable full frame, 1080p raw camera... but I was here and the card's storage was getting smaller and smaller... so why not? When I switched to 1080p, I gave a sigh of relief when I saw that the available storage nearly tripled. So we continued down the trail and I took a few shots...

One thing I noticed while shooting with the FP, at this point, was that although the LCD is sharp and bright, the footage didn't have any kind of discernible look. Perhaps it's the small size, or using the OFF picture profile for viewing, but with my 5D, you can really see the magic of the footage while shooting it. The Sigma did not have that. So the process didn't feel as fulfilling as it is when I shoot ML Raw with my 5D3.

But I carried on... until we quickly realized that we were surrounded by mosquitoes. I don't know if we were near a nest, or what, but we were surrounded by a swarm of these buzzing, blood sucking monsters. Apparently, nature forgot to tell them that it's mid-November in the Mid-Atlantic. Needless to say, we retreated back to the car. There was still enough daylight to hit one more spot, so we drove a couple miles down the road to the next spot.

As I was driving, I decided that I may as well test out the external drive and 12bit 4K raw. I was already here. So when we stopped, I quickly jury rigged the SSD to the L-Bracket with a zip tie and headed to the beach. With the sun in tis final descent, I decided to test out the Dual-ISO function of the FP... which is one of the reasons I've been so intrigued by the camera. I intend to shoot horror/thriller type of stuff, so the one downfall of my 5D is chroma noise in lowlight. I can push the camera to 1600 ISO, but it can get ugly very quick and you really need to push your blacks into oblivion to rid the footage of that the blocky, patch rainbow goo.

With my jury rigged SSD and the Minolta lens back on the FP, I turned on the camera and was surprised to see that it automatically changed itself to 4K 12ibit via the SSD and I was really happy to see that I had near an hour of possible footage... way more minutes of footage than daylight to shoot. But that's okay, I had ISO on my side...

TOO MUCH ISO... so I'm glad I tossed my VND into my pocket. After a few awkward screws, I was ready to see what 4K raw footage is...

Well... other than the awkward rig... the IQ in the LCD looked instantly better... but what was more surprising was how clean an image can look at 3200 ISO...

So as the sun set on the horizon, I hit record... over... and over again...

Sorry for the long post... but fast forward a couple hours and I was home. My girlfriend was taking a nap, so I quietly grabbed my laptop and uploaded the footage...

I won't bore you any further with my post details... hell... I'm still trying to figure them out, but I did manage to get a few shots in 4K raw that I didn't hate. Here are a few samples from my first outing with the FP... hopefully they don't suck too bad...

 

Awesome man. I feel this is truly the first successors to the 5d Mark III with ML 14 bit RAW

[mercer]

15 minutes ago, FHDcrew said:

Awesome man. I feel this is truly the first successors to the 5d Mark III with ML 14 bit RAW

In some ways it does, but like @BTM_Pix has said, it also feels like a true successor to the original Pocket camera as well, but yes I used a similar workflow in post as I use with the 5D, so there is definitely a familiarity.

But I will say that the those extra bits of color info really helps the ML Raw image. It looks a bit thicker to me.

Needless to say, I still have some tests to do.