Sigma FP

[kye]

In the absence of a single thread about the FP, I'll post this here.

There is some new content here that I haven't heard before, including references to tests that the FP has more accurate colour than the Sony Venice.  For people interested in very high quality images (and uncompressed RAW) this might be of interest.

Much more life in this camera yet I think.

[PannySVHS]

Hehe, a few mistakes in the bitrate presentation, MB/s is not Mbit/s.:) Former is about 8times higher that Mbit per second, 1MBs equaling about 8Mbps.

6.15min making me smile in humble silence. 🙂

[webrunner5]

Any one on here have the fp L?? Is the video part of it being cropped a bummer compared to the lower resolution one using the full frame?

[webrunner5]

Well,  I looked up some reviews on it and not so impressed. Maybe for photo, but not both. Hmm.

[MrSMW]

I'm actually quite tempted to get a used FP and stick the Smallrig cage with wooden handle on it plus my Lumix 24-105mm f4 (for range, stability, OIS) and try that as a run n' gun unit.

Not keen to build it out though. Certainly not with an additional screen, but a base mounted drive could be an option.

Really though, I wouldn't want to spend much money on it so it would ideally just be a used FP and a spare battery so one could always be on charge.

The only thing is I'm an Adobe suite user and Cinema DNG doesn't play well with Premiere I believe?

There's something about an FP-L for stills plus FP for filming (plus static S5 or S1H on tripod) that appeals, but probably still too many compromises for me...

[bjohn]

The dealbreaker for me for the fp as a stills camera is the electronic-only shutter: not only are there well-documented rolling shutter artifacts when shooting fast-moving objects, but you also get the usual e-shutter bokeh artifacts when using high shutter speeds (over 1/500 sec), so you'd need to use ND filters for stills if you like shooting wide open or close to it in daytime.

It appeals to me for filming due to the true cinema settings (shutter angle instead of shutter speed, etc.) since I'm used to shooting on cinema cameras, but apart from the higher resolution and ability to use some of my favorite lenses with less of a crop factor I'm probably better off sticking with my original BMPCC and Micro Cinema cameras.

[Anaconda_]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

I'm actually quite tempted to get a used FP and stick the Smallrig cage with wooden handle on it plus my Lumix 24-105mm f4 (for range, stability, OIS) and try that as a run n' gun unit.

Not keen to build it out though. Certainly not with an additional screen, but a base mounted drive could be an option.

Really though, I wouldn't want to spend much money on it so it would ideally just be a used FP and a spare battery so one could always be on charge.

The only thing is I'm an Adobe suite user and Cinema DNG doesn't play well with Premiere I believe?

There's something about an FP-L for stills plus FP for filming (plus static S5 or S1H on tripod) that appeals, but probably still too many compromises for me...

I have exactly the setup you're talking about, and absolutely love it. It's so light weight and the footage is fantastic. I will say though, monitor on for external raw is well worth doing. Braw works pretty well in Premiere now, and you have the added benefit of changing the angle of the screen. I have my monitor mounted on the back, so to the person being filmed, it doesn't look much bigger or more intimidating than the actual camera without the monitor. Here's a couple images with a 28mm FD lens (also a very nice combo)

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

I have exactly the setup you're talking about, and absolutely love it. It's so light weight and the footage is fantastic. I will say though, monitor on for external raw is well worth doing. Braw works pretty well in Premiere now, and you have the added benefit of changing the angle of the screen. I have my monitor mounted on the back, so to the person being filmed, it doesn't look much bigger or more intimidating than the actual camera without the monitor. Here's a couple images with a 28mm FD lens (also a very nice combo)

Thanks for sharing this, - fantastic.

Actually, just yesterday I was researching a rear mounted option such as this because I utterly despise the top mounted option everyone else seems to use!

I think I could give this a go later this year, but use the Lumix 24-105 purely because I would want the stability and requirement to not change a lens, ie, try a used FP and the lens I already have and then go from there. Or not.

My 'go to' focal lengths are: 20-50mm indoor and 35-105mm outdoor and the 24-105 obviously covers that except the extreme wide end.

I'd switch to an OIS prime once it got dark and whilst I don't think (?) there is a native f2 or faster option (with OIS), there are a couple of adapted options.

Most likely, if I'm going to do it, it would be towards the end of my season, so mid/late September because by that time, I will need to have made a decision re. 2023 which would be:

A. Preferred option to stick within the L Mount system, but possibly move a body or two around from the current line up of S1H, S1R and S5. Particularly interested in any possible S2H/R providing it would 100% be available from early Spring.

B. My second preferred option would be to go as Sigma as possible. If I could, I'd go entirely Sigma, but struggling a bit as things stand with the FP-L vs the S1R and the FP vs the S1H, but this config. of the FP could tempt me to move from the S1H...

C. Fuji GFX 100s for stills and a pair of XH2's for video. I was a Fuji guy and could be a Fuji guy again and the only reason I am not currently a Fuji guy is because they currently do not have the system that works for me. OK, I could make a Fuji system work, but right now, I prefer my current set up.

D. Stick with what I currently have for at least another year.

E. Something else. Nikon possibly, but highly unlikely to be Canon or Sony.

But I am not actively looking to switch for the sake of switching. If something else cannot do something quantifiably better for my specific needs, I won't change. I hate change for change sake and prefer stability.

However, I make no secret of the fact that I am always looking for the perfect set up for my needs which are:

1. The most minimal set up possible but one that 

2. delivers an extremely high quality output and at the same time

3: should be a joy to use.

I don't mind a few quirks or idiosyncrasies, a few compromises even, but I had to draw the line at the FP-L last year when I was considering it as my principal photography tool.

But I did fall in love quite a bit with the one I had on loan from Sigma France and came close to going with one for video work instead of the S1H, but went with the latter because it was far less compromised.

The conclusion of my ramble is I see something like the Sigma FP as being a bit like a restomod Porsche 911 from the 1980's, ie, it's far cooler than a newer model and if it's tweaked and used as it's meant to be used, it will bring far more smiles per mile than something arguably 'better' on paper, but with less soul.

The solution above could be a 'soul' camera one. For video at least. I still don't think I could make it work for stills on a number of levels. A FP for personal use stills yes, but all of my pro work (thinking mainly OCF here), then no.

[Thomas Hill]

18 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Any one on here have the fp L?? Is the video part of it being cropped a bummer compared to the lower resolution one using the full frame?

I've only shot 24p with mine so the crop hasn't been an issue. Besides frame rates, you can also choose a crop to get better readout speeds to improve rolling shutter but that wasn't a concern with the short that I did. 

All the video that I've shot has been in raw and All-I and I love the IQ. The only thing I miss from my previous Sony is the AF.

On the photography side, I also love it for wandering around shooting landscapes, etc. But it wouldn't be a good choice for a portrait or wedding shooter.

https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjzvp1E

[MrSMW]

4 minutes ago, Thomas Hill said:

But it wouldn't be a good choice for a portrait or wedding shooter.

If flash is required, then I agree.

[kye]

On 4/7/2022 at 5:37 AM, PannySVHS said:

Hehe, a few mistakes in the bitrate presentation, MB/s is not Mbit/s.:) Former is about 8times higher that Mbit per second, 1MBs equaling about 8Mbps.

6.15min making me smile in humble silence. 🙂

True, I noticed that too but then checked a few numbers and he was right (on the ones I looked up anyway).  

17 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I'm actually quite tempted to get a used FP and stick the Smallrig cage with wooden handle on it plus my Lumix 24-105mm f4 (for range, stability, OIS) and try that as a run n' gun unit.

Not keen to build it out though. Certainly not with an additional screen, but a base mounted drive could be an option.

Really though, I wouldn't want to spend much money on it so it would ideally just be a used FP and a spare battery so one could always be on charge.

The only thing is I'm an Adobe suite user and Cinema DNG doesn't play well with Premiere I believe?

There's something about an FP-L for stills plus FP for filming (plus static S5 or S1H on tripod) that appeals, but probably still too many compromises for me...

I was half-tempted with this kind of setup too - 24-105/4 OIS lens for run-n-gun, although I would probably just add the EVF instead of monitor.  I would like something a bit faster than F4 though, to get a bit more background separation if I wanted it.

FF seems to have a bit of a gap when it comes to fast lenses with OIS...

13 hours ago, MrSMW said:

The conclusion of my ramble is I see something like the Sigma FP as being a bit like a restomod Porsche 911 from the 1980's, ie, it's far cooler than a newer model and if it's tweaked and used as it's meant to be used, it will bring far more smiles per mile than something arguably 'better' on paper, but with less soul.

I think this is actually a terrible analogy because it's really the other way around.

Most camera companies continue to re-release cameras that are larger than required (like when we had DSLRs with huge chasms inside for the mirror) and old sensors (just look at the Canon APSC lineup!).  The FP is a modern camera by comparison, with a modern body optimised for heat dissipation and a sensor optimised for image quality and a codec with the highest outright quality (uncompressed).

Here's an example of the size vs heat management involved...

It even makes the Sony FF cameras look large:

and finally, I haven't found the tests that Justin refers to in the video and verified, but he claims that the sensor is MORE accurate than other more expensive cameras.

I think the old=analog new=digital thinking is complete bollocks.  I think that it's more that the analog feel comes from a lack of digital distortions and artefacts, which is why an iPhone looks far more digital and awful than a cinema camera, despite both being 100% digital.

[PannySVHS]

Hehe, 6.16min all through 6.25min he mixed Mbytes per second up with Mbit per second, f.i. it should be 372 MB per second vs. 150 Mbit per second. 150 MB per second is wrong. 1 byte = 8 bits. So if the enthusiastic youtube presenter and cinematographer would know about that fact, he would be even more exited about "his" massive raw datarate compared to video codecs.🙂 @kye

[kye]

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

Hehe, 6.16min all through 6.25min he mixed Mbytes per second up with Mbit per second, f.i. it should be 372 MB per second vs. 150 Mbit per second. 150 MB per second is wrong. 1 byte = 8 bits. So if the enthusiastic youtube presenter and cinematographer would know about that fact, he would be even more exited about "his" massive raw datarate compared to video codecs.🙂 @kye

Went back and had another look and yeah, looks like he made a salad out of that...  by underestimating!  I guess that proves his point even more 🙂 

[webrunner5]

It is pretty damn easy to confuse the two I will admit that having been guilty on several occasions myself. But I can use the excuse of being old, that does wipe out a lot of guilt. 😄

[kye]

This is interesting, and is the video referenced by the previous one, and talks about the colour accuracy tests of the FP (at 15:00):

 

[PannySVHS]

I have not been impressed by the online footage. With BM cameras it is easy to finde awesome footage for every of their cameras. This one looks pretty good colour wise. That HD 12bit Raw looking pretty sweet.

 

More "thick" colours. Starting to love it. Not a good sign financially. 🙂

 

excerpt from the DP:

*The last three shots were shot in 1080p, which I felt has the most “organic” movement. The last two shots were shot in s35 mode, I left the original aspect(around 3.55:1), no resize to fit the 2.39:1 anamorphic aspect.

*Grain added in post.

All shot handheld with no rig, just camera and huge 2kg lens.

-The dynamic range of the Sigma FP is huge, but you have to prioritize the highlights while exposing; shadows can be recovered easily thanks to the 12Bit Raw.

-Dynamic range in 12Bit feels quite similar to Sony FS7MII(just a feeling, no scientific tests).

-At ISO 2000, the camera seems to have a better balanced dynamic range, compared to ISO 100 which has no range on the highlights but lots of info down to the shadows.

-10bit and 8bit are almost useless, creating artifacts once you start moving any setting.

[j_one]

I was a big fan of Sigma quattro sd images. Obviously their ART lenses have been a huge success. So they were the company I was rooting for to change the game with the fp. But like Panny pointed out, I'm just not feeling the images I see.

I love the color depth I'm seeing, but that's it. There's something weird going on with the gamma curve, DR seems limited. From all the footage I've seen either the highlights clip hard (like GH5 footage) or the blacks crush abruptly.

If they're working on a Foveon camera I'm still here for it's arrival. I want them to win.

[webrunner5]

I doubt we will ever see another Foveon camera. They are pretty terrible at higher ISO, and I guess pretty impossible to transfer enough data for video. Those two areas are total deal breakers in this day and age. But yes, I loved them years ago, super detailed stuff.

[TomTheDP]

2 hours ago, j_one said:

I was a big fan of Sigma quattro sd images. Obviously their ART lenses have been a huge success. So they were the company I was rooting for to change the game with the fp. But like Panny pointed out, I'm just not feeling the images I see.

I love the color depth I'm seeing, but that's it. There's something weird going on with the gamma curve, DR seems limited. From all the footage I've seen either the highlights clip hard (like GH5 footage) or the blacks crush abruptly.

If they're working on a Foveon camera I'm still here for it's arrival. I want them to win.

I think there is a lot of misuse of the camera. Dynamic range seems impressive when exposed to protect highlights. It would be nice of course if they had included a nice log curve. I am going to buy one within the next month.

[kye]

6 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

-Dynamic range in 12Bit feels quite similar to Sony FS7MII(just a feeling, no scientific tests)

CineD hasn't tested the FS7mk2, but has tested the FS7 and the FP, and they score basically the same, with 13.3 and 13.4 stops SNR=2.  

26 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

I think there is a lot of misuse of the camera. Dynamic range seems impressive when exposed to protect highlights. It would be nice of course if they had included a nice log curve. I am going to buy one within the next month.

I suspect the same.

I imagine that the feverish trend of shooting at maximum resolution under all circumstances without any knowledge of why will have meant that lots of people will be shooting UHD in 8-bit internally, which combined with the usual lack of knowledge from the YT camera folks, will not be creating good images.  

Also, uncompressed RAW bitrates are unwieldy, pushing some to use the internal compressed codecs, which are..  not good.