Panasonic S1 V-LOG -- New image quality king of the hill

[Cliff Totten]

28 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Thanks Cliff

If you look at the latest firmware from Nikon for the Z6, they fixed a lot of smaller issues that seemed like house cleaning.  It may not be connected to Pro ResRAW but it's good they addressed issues and updated the firmware. 

Once the Pro ResRAW is released for the Z6 would it be better to get the Shogun 7 over the Ninja V?

Does anyone know the price point of the Sigma cine camera?  

It seem like Sony opened a can of whoop ass on itself with selling the IMX410 to the competitors.  Why? because all these other companies are beating Sony to the market with cine cameras that out perform Sony cameras. It makes you wonder what Sony's game plan is.

 

You aren't kidding!! That IMX410 and any variant that Sony SemiConductor sells from it is a sledge hammer on Sony imaging company! I'm sure that Sony Imaging is crying to Sony SemiConductor saying "Guys!,...you are killing us here!"

The important things to remember is that both companies have their own profit and loss books. Sony SemiConductor's financial contribution to the Sony parent company is far,...FAR more significant than Sony Imaging's right now. SemiConductor is the real true darling child of the parent company so they will continue to sell their best tech to anybody that will buy it. I do believe that SemiConductor DOES "protect" it's baby brother in some ways though. (Yes,..I'm sure they are closely communicating overall strategy on a regular basis. I don't believe they are "cut off" from each other as some suggest)

I think that the Z6 and S1 will both do 4k in super35, not full frame. (It's impossible to have true "raw" 4k and full at the same time unless you line skip your 6k to sample 4k from it. I think that full 6k readout and scaling to 4k wouldn't really be "4k raw" collection. Not 100% sure but seems that way to me.)

I suspect that the S1H's major upgrade over it's little S1 brother will be it's full frame raw 6k readout to a Shogun 7. So the Ninja V will do 4k raw and Shogun 7 will do 6k raw.

Just my take.....will see soon!  

[Lukas Kalinowski]

Wow Thanks Guys! for such pleasant response! Usually I just read here but todays I'm delighted with Your Help! Thanks! 

[Skip77]

4 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

You aren't kidding!! That IMX410 and any variant that Sony SemiConductor sells from it is a sledge hammer on Sony imaging company! I'm sure that Sony Imaging is crying to Sony SemiConductor saying "Guys!,...you are killing us here!"

The important things to remember is that both companies have their own profit and loss books. Sony SemiConductor's financial contribution to the Sony parent company is far,...FAR more significant than Sony Imaging's right now. SemiConductor is the real true darling child of the parent company so they will continue to sell their best tech to anybody that will buy it. I do believe that SemiConductor DOES "protect" it's baby brother in some ways though. (Yes,..I'm sure they are closely communicating overall strategy on a regular basis. I don't believe they are "cut off" from each other as some suggest)

I think that the Z6 and S1 will both do 4k in super35, not full frame. (It's impossible to have raw 4k and full at the same time unless you line skip you 6k to sample 4k from it)

I suspect that the S1H's major upgrade over it's little S1 brother will be it's full frame raw 6k readout to a Shogun 7. So the Ninja V will do 4k raw and Shogun 7 will do 6k raw.

Just my take.....will see soon!  

I did not dig deep enough to know Sony SemiConductor was doing it's own thing or was able too.

Here's why it's great for us and not for Sony, and that it Sigma, Nikon, Panasonic, etc, etc are pushing the development and output that that sensor can do.  People think Nikon is doing very little to take advantage of the Sony sensor it uses and that the sensor is doing all the work. That's simply not true. Nikon knows it has a brand name that only Canon can compete with. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Nikon release a S1H type Z camera.  Why?  Because it would support the same Z lens mount, Nikon is already cracking the video code and it's part of the same process that Nikon uses if they build the Z8 or Z9 next ben cameras. 

I really don't think the S1H is going to be the only camera with those specs.  It's all about money. 

[Geoff_L]

1 hour ago, Skip77 said:

Hey Geoff_L - I know you don't want to compare the S1 and Z6 yet but can you give any feedback on how the S1 video was compared to the Z6? 

And has the S1 been used on a gimbal yet or is the weight and size an issue?

Ah, would be hard to tell, as I just took some awful quick stuffs to test the camera... I really can't talk about the video quality.  But as you said, I think it will be quite similar to the Z6, except for color science (2 different kind I believe). Maybe, from what I watched, the VLOG upgrade bring a special mojo (at least, I have read people working with a variety of cameras, included big toys, claiming that) to the S1, and the dynamic range + high iso performance seem to be quite remarkable. But if the Z6 raw upgrade arrives soon, I am sure we will also see a special mojo coming out of it !!

Did not tried it on a gimbal, but I suspect it would be heavy !! 1kg for the body and 700gr for the 24-105, if I remember. Must be doable, but my wrists would struggle ? But the IBIS is a large part of why I went with the S1, because I can't bring gimbal with me most of the time. I know, IBIS will never replace a proper gimbal, and I don't want to, but at least, it helps me leaving my gorilla pod or my monopod at home. When I had my GH4, Fujis and Nikons, I always brought with me a "big" gorilla pod or a monopod. And given how I film, it was really a pain to use. So when I tried a pany G9, I started to see the opportunity of leaving them at home. And as the S1 seems to have very close IBIS performances... I will be happy !! Ah and the size of course... it is in big dslr league, so we can forget about the newest tiny gimbals !

It is really a hard choice between both ; but I am sure about something : both were an easy choice vs the A7iii ? (joke !).

[sanveer]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Why don't you read, if you can read, this little article about what Red did to Sony. And see if Red doesn't have all the power in the world to stop little old Nikon dead in their tracks.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/343675

It's HILARIOUS !!! I am not sure whether it highlights the STUPIDITY or CORRUPTION in the IP Infrastructure in the United States, but RED were awarded Patent for the phrase "Video Camera", for a supposed claimed invention. I think this is worse than a Banana Republic ?

 

I believe this needs to be Investigated and the officers and all members of the Pantent Office who Granted this Patent, who be charged with Serious Patent Abuse, as well as Fraud and Misrepresentstion under Penal Law. I am surprised RED didn't Patent God or things related to God. It's Beyond ludicrous. 

 

Read Paras 7 and 8. 

[webrunner5]

Red won and Sony didn't, end of story. You can believe all you want.

[Nmccarthy]

How's the video image in aps-c mode? I plan on using the s1 as a B-cam with super35 lenses so I'll have to crop in. Is there a drop post production latitude?

But if 4k raw comes to the S1 (w/ the Ninja) then I'll definitely be getting it

[Cliff Totten]

21 minutes ago, sanveer said:

It's HILARIOUS !!! I am not sure whether it highlights the STUPIDITY or CORRUPTION in the IP Infrastructure in the United States, but RED were awarded Patent for the phrase "Video Camera", for a supposed claimed invention. I think this is worse than a Banana Republic ?

 

I believe this needs to be Investigated and the officers and all members of the Pantent Office who Granted this Patent, who be charged with Serious Patent Abuse, as well as Fraud and Misrepresentstion under Penal Law. I am surprised RED didn't Patent God or things related to God. It's Beyond ludicrous. 

 

Read Paras 7 and 8. 

Wait...I'm jumping into this late and maybe my memory is off here,...but didn't RED "try" to sue Sony over "compressed raw" patents that RED owns?  Didn't RED "try" to have the F5 and F55 taken off the market because of Sony's compressed raw CODEC? (Any company can do raw video, it's when you "compress" that raw, that is where you violate RED's patent)

I seem to remember that Sony fired back at RED with like 8 Sony patent violations that RED infringed on (I seem to remember that V-Lock battery's were one of them)

RED dropped their case against Sony in fear that Sony was going to punch RED back WAY harder than RED could ever punch Sony.

No?

 

[Lukas Kalinowski]

Guys last one question about last FIRMWARE and VLOG - I found earlier in this thread some photos from menu but not all specs can clearly see. Does S1 can record 1080p 60/50 in 10bit LONG-GOP / ALL-in ? INTERNALLY ? All "charts" with video specs do not shows specs after vlog/firmware upgrade. Does the 1080p 50/60 (if available) do record in CROP (aps-c) and Full frame mode ? I'm not interested in 4K because there is no 10bit internally as far I know. 

[Cliff Totten]

23 minutes ago, Nmccarthy said:

How's the video image in aps-c mode? I plan on using the s1 as a B-cam with super35 lenses so I'll have to crop in. Is there a drop post production latitude?

But if 4k raw comes to the S1 (w/ the Ninja) then I'll definitely be getting it

S1 super35 looks gorgeous in VLog.

It's a 1:1 4k readout and deBayer so you don't get the 6k oversample but the dynamic range is off the charts and the low light noise is still superb. I feel the S1 Super35 mode STILL matches or beats other Super35 cameras. (EVA-1 and FS7, Canon C series and Ursa)

The S1 sensor is a really.....really,...I mean, REALLY damn good sensor. (This wasn't fully known until they gave us VLog last week....now it's true DR is unlocked and on display for all to see)

[Skip77]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

My "knowledge" spans 35, 40 years of doing this stuff real time. Reading Tons of articles, working with Pro people for years at times for a living. Asking real questions at rental houses, repair techs, on and on. You don't learn this stuff in a year, even 10 years unless you are some gifted as hell person. You Have to go out and do it. Experience the wins and loses. Regret the dumb ass equipment you thought was good, remember the surprises on the good stuff you bought. You learn from all of it. That is gained knowledge.

  I am sure I am far, far from the smartest person on here, especially with the newer stuff. But I have been there done it for probably as long as you have been alive. That's why I know and why.

Why don't you read, if you can read, this little article about what Red did to Sony. And see if Red doesn't have all the power in the world to stop little old Nikon dead in their tracks.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/343675

And Sony sues RED.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2013/04/08/sony-strikes-back-at-jim-jannards-red-patent-infringement-lawsuit/#4809657c2e28

Did you read the article?

Did Sony destroy all the F5 cameras and stop selling them? NO

You take a little information and try and make it fact.

 

Here's a question:

Why WOULD RED care what Nikon does with 12 bit Pro Res RAW?  They don't. 

Sony is already using ProRes RAW with the FS5 externally. 

Again RED is not filing suit and going after Nikon or stopping them from releasing ProRes RAW from the Z6.  

21 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

Wait...I'm jumping into this late and maybe my memory is off here,...but didn't RED "try" to sue Sony over "compressed raw" patents that RED owns?  Didn't RED "try" to have the F5 and F55 taken off the market because of Sony's compressed raw CODEC? (Any company can do raw video, it's when you "compress" that raw, that is where you violate RED's patent)

I seem to remember that Sony fired back at RED with like 8 Sony patent violations that RED infringed on (I seem to remember that V-Lock battery's were one of them)

RED dropped their case against Sony in fear that Sony was going to punch RED back WAY harder than RED could ever punch Sony.

No?

 

Yes you summed up what I found online.  Firewater / Webrunner 5 seemed to remember or do a search about RED and is trying to claim RED is stopping Nikon from releasing RAW to the Z6.

48 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Red won and Sony didn't, end of story. You can believe all you want.

RED didn't win that suite.  The F5 is still being sold.  Time to put up or shut up with your non-sense post.

[webrunner5]

20 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Why WOULD RED care what Nikon does with 12 bit Pro Res RAW?  They don't. 

 

 

Because it will be compressed you ignorant bastard. Are you Really that stupid. It will infringe on their Patents. You think the hell you are going to get pure Raw over HDMI, do you? SDI yeah. And even if you could do you want 550 to 750mbps data? Your piss ass card in it would last like 5 minutes or less, Way less.

Nikon and Atomos is going to have to pay for Everything they sell to Red on that camera and that recorder whether you believe it or not. Sure if Might happen but it will make Red even more money. They will laugh all the way to the Bank. Even BMD is paying for every camera using bRaw. It is all about Compression that Red owns.  They have it locked up.

Why do you think Apple is damn rich? Every damn company in the world that uses ProRes has to pay them a license to use it, just like Red does for Compression.

[Skip77]

11 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Because it will be compressed you ignorant bastard. Are you Really that stupid. It will infringe on their Patents. You think the hell you are going to get pure Raw over HDMI, do you? And even if you could do you want 550 to 750mbps data? Your piss ass card in it would last like 5 minutes or less, Way less.

Nikon and Atomos is going to have to pay for Everything they sell to Red on that camera and that recorder whether you believe it or not. Sure if Might happen but it will make Red even more money. They will laugh all the way to the Bank. Even BMD is paying for every camera using bRaw. It is all about Compression that Red owns.  They have it locked up.

I would call you a dickhead but I'm trying to ignore that you called me an ignorant bastard. 

Your own comments above contradicts you last 4-5 post that RED won't let it happen, etc, etc.  You defended that to the end of days and now I'm an ignorant bastard and so much so that you come back and say "Nikon and Atomos is going to have to pay for Everything they sell to Red on that camera".  Who the fuck cares if Nikon and Atomos has to pay RED?  Are you that stupid that you have to change the argument that you lost from RED won't allow Nikon to do RAW to  "Nikon and Aromos have to pay RED to output RAW".  

No shit Sherlock. That's what Atomos built that side of its company on.  RAW out pout to Atomos recorders. 

I since you have old brain I'll break it down further and say Atomos is probably paying Red and not Nikon or Canon or Sony when those brands record out to one of the Atomos recorders.

You clearly don't understand the output RAW to the Atomos and how that probably observes Nikon of any infringements. That actually would explain why Nikon is going RAW out to an Atomos and not internal.  This puts the burden on Atomos to deal with RED. 

RED also didn't lose that suite to Sony. 

[Cliff Totten]

33 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Because it will be compressed you ignorant bastard. Are you Really that stupid. It will infringe on their Patents. You think the hell you are going to get pure Raw over HDMI, do you? SDI yeah. And even if you could do you want 550 to 750mbps data? Your piss ass card in it would last like 5 minutes or less, Way less.

Nikon and Atomos is going to have to pay for Everything they sell to Red on that camera and that recorder whether you believe it or not. Sure if Might happen but it will make Red even more money. They will laugh all the way to the Bank. Even BMD is paying for every camera using bRaw. It is all about Compression that Red owns.  They have it locked up.

Why do you think Apple is damn rich? Every damn company in the world that uses ProRes has to pay them a license to use it, just like Red does for Compression.

It is also my understanding that RED and Atomos DID have a patent agreement with ProResRAW. Apparently, this compressed raw is NOT an infringement because it was negotiated through RED. 

The STICKY one is BlackMagic raw. I have been told that BlackMagic did NOT work with RED on this. However!....it seems that BlackMagic got around RED's compressed patent by DEBAYERING their "raw" in camera before it's saved. This would mean that,..yes,..it is "compressed"...but, no...it's not true "raw" sensor data.

I was told at the Atomos booth that BlackMagic is in a dangerous grey area here but they might have altered their compressed "raw" enough so that it's not really a perfect violation.  

Remember,...as I understand it, the raw from any camera is not compressed until it hits the external Atomos ProResRAW encoder. So,...Nikon and Panasonic don't have to worry about any patent infringement. Atomos has done all the legal work with RED to keep them safe and Panny, Sigma and Nikon are off the hook.

[Patrick B.]

@andjo thank you!!

so actually that sounds better than I expected. Do you have the v-log upgrade to see if it shows up as well? Maybe I missed that in your screenshots  

The lack of full screen view is disappointing but I could work around that. 

Agree the VFR limitation is just weird. Surely the H model won’t have that. 

[Skip77]

11 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

It is also my understanding that RED and Atomos DID have a patent agreement with ProResRAW. Apparently, this compressed raw is NOT an infringement because it was negotiated through RED.   

Remember,...as I understand it, the raw from any camera is not compressed until it hits the external Atomos ProResRAW encoder. So,...Nikon and Panasonic don't have to worry about any patent infringement. Atomos has done all the legal work with RED to keep them safe and Panny, Sigma and Nikon are off the hook.

Sorry @webrunner5 you should have looked at Atomos' business model. I did and figured it out. 

[webrunner5]

39 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Sorry @webrunner5 you should have looked at Atomos' business model. I did and figured it out. 

I never said they can't ever do it. I said they, you are going to pay out the ass to use it. Just like they will pay Apple to use it. Jesus. You haven't figured out shit. The whole damn world is ALL about the money. It's the reason you go to work. You do work don't you?? It's the reason you paid out the ass for your Z6 when you first bought it. Pretty bad investment right now isn't it. Red and Apple loves you. And Atomos will love your money when you Have to buy a Recorder to use Raw on your Z6. It will probably takes a 120 Dollar HDMI cable from Atomos to even use it to boot. They all have you by the Short Hairs. But you have it all figured out. Yeah right.

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

It is also my understanding that RED and Atomos DID have a patent agreement with ProResRAW. Apparently, this compressed raw is NOT an infringement because it was negotiated through RED. 

The STICKY one is BlackMagic raw. I have been told that BlackMagic did NOT work with RED on this. However!....it seems that BlackMagic got around RED's compressed patent by DEBAYERING their "raw" in camera before it's saved. This would mean that,..yes,..it is "compressed"...but, no...it's not true "raw" sensor data.

I was told at the Atomos booth that BlackMagic is in a dangerous grey area here but they might have altered their compressed "raw" enough so that it's not really a perfect violation.  

Remember,...as I understand it, the raw from any camera is not compressed until it hits the external Atomos ProResRAW encoder. So,...Nikon and Panasonic don't have to worry about any patent infringement. Atomos has done all the legal work with RED to keep them safe and Panny, Sigma and Nikon are off the hook.

I doubt BMD is going to get off clean on this. bRaw is really as far as I can tell not a True Raw like CDNG. It is being manipulated. Well probably Every Raw is in a sense, but not to the extent of bRaw. So some real Grey areas that Red will pursue in the long run you can bet that. Between Red and Arri both have a lock on compression patents.

[PannySVHS]

2 hours ago, Lukas Kalinowski said:

Guys last one question about last FIRMWARE and VLOG - I found earlier in this thread some photos from menu but not all specs can clearly see. Does S1 can record 1080p 60/50 in 10bit LONG-GOP / ALL-in ? INTERNALLY ? All "charts" with video specs do not shows specs after vlog/firmware upgrade. Does the 1080p 50/60 (if available) do record in CROP (aps-c) and Full frame mode ? I'm not interested in 4K because there is no 10bit internally as far I know. 

Hey Lukas, with the VLOG update the S1 gets 10bit 422 4K with 150mbit long-gop up to 30p, also 10bit 422 HD with 100mbit long-gop up to 60p. So, great camera indeed, 10bit VLOG. It´s fantastic! What I´d really love would be a true 2K image with all intra 200mbit up to 60p.

@webrunner5@Cliff Totten , hey guys, I love your comments, just not these ones about red and cuss words in this thread for this beautiful camera. It really makes this thread getting rather harder to read, if off topic and off the roof language keeps continuing. So please, let it rest, friends and enjoy a good slice of orange or peach instead in the hot weather! Thanks, Marty

[webrunner5]

Well when you have just total untruths and lies I am not going to just let people Bull Crap people that really don't know what's happening. Nikon has done a disservice to the people that have bought this camera thinking it is all pie in the sky on this Raw thing. This Might happen, but when you paid what you have paid to hopefully get it they ought to be a heck of a lot more honest than they have like it or not.

Is it a bad camera no. But it will be a worse camera if this doesn't ever happen. And That might really happen.By the time it ever comes out their edge will be gone. Everyone else will have it. Typical Nikon in the last few years. Undeceive as heck. A ship adrift.

I will say no more on this subject. I respect your thoughts @PannySVHS. I will figure out some way as old as I am to put good old Skippy Peanut Butter on Ignore. ?