Panasonic S1 V-LOG -- New image quality king of the hill

[zerocool22]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

You don't need to, just understand the principal behind what I'm saying.

I know what you mean, but thats kinda useless. As we all upload to vimeo or youtube. And besides other camera's like RED are also beeing played in an embedded player, and the footage looks way less detailed, and RED is already pretty detailed vs ARRI. So there is something not correct in that statement. Allthough It looks way better on my 4K monitor. 

But im not in love with any footage so far. Well see down the road if great things come along, as of now im more leaning into a zcam F6. 

 

[New_E]

26 minutes ago, zerocool22 said:

But im not in love with any footage so far. Well see down the road if great things come along, as of now im more leaning into a zcam F6. 

 

Thanks for letting us know! Armed with that info, I can finally go on about my day now!

Now, back to the S1-- Image quality is phenomenal. 

[Yehouda]

Image quality of the S1 is stunning!

[Andrew Reid]

1 hour ago, zerocool22 said:

I know what you mean, but thats kinda useless. As we all upload to vimeo or youtube. And besides other camera's like RED are also beeing played in an embedded player, and the footage looks way less detailed, and RED is already pretty detailed vs ARRI. So there is something not correct in that statement. Allthough It looks way better on my 4K monitor. 

But im not in love with any footage so far. Well see down the road if great things come along, as of now im more leaning into a zcam F6. 

You'll have to trust me on this one, not your screen.

The footage off the card has a low micro contrast, gentle fine detail, not hard edges or too sharp, video-look.

And if you wish for a softer look there are a million $0 ways of going about it with 4K. One of them is simply to shoot 1080p and upscale to 4K. But that would be missing out on the full bandwidth this sensor and codec providing.

[maxmizer]

My opinion is that you are not understanding ...
a little wrong Andrew praising too much the dowries of the s1, it is a good camera
but it could be better, on the other hand it is too dastric, even if it is true to say
which is more "video" and less "cine" ...
Z-cam appearance!
Meanwhile, have you seen this? 

 

[Andrew Reid]

I don't really see what the difference is between the Alexa and S1 from a Vimeo clip. In fact I'd say they were closely matched looking at the above.

But you have to compare like with like.

The lighting is very soft throughout as well, which helps.

The grading is soft and contrast is soft.

My test with the cars in bright sunlight converted to Rec.709 looks very crisp in comparison to a softly lit face in a studio with an almost ungraded flat file.

Take an S1 and Alexa on same shoot and then find out what the difference is.

[zerocool22]

31 minutes ago, maxmizer said:

My opinion is that you are not understanding ...
a little wrong Andrew praising too much the dowries of the s1, it is a good camera
but it could be better, on the other hand it is too dastric, even if it is true to say
which is more "video" and less "cine" ...
Z-cam appearance!
Meanwhile, have you seen this? 

 

The Alexa comes out looking like a champ. But nothing unexpected as it costs 5 times as much as the mavo lf. 
I would like to see a side by side comparison between the mavo lf,  zcam f6 and the panasonic s1. But in the end the S1 drops off the list anyhow as it does not do any kind of RAW. 

[thebrothersthre3]

I have a hard time faulting a camera for sharpness as long as its not the artificial kind. You can soften things in post can't sharpen them. Would be interesting to see it against an 8K RED. 

That was a complaint in a comparison of the BM Pocket 4k to the Fuji XT3. The Fuji XT3 is a 6k sensor though, so it should look sharper or more detailed at least. 

[Cliff Totten]

I agree with Andrew on this. VLog on the S1 is friggin' spectacular. It destroys the A7S, A7S-II, GH5, GH5-S and beats the FS7 with no trouble. Showdows are clean in VLog, even with noise reduction turned down to zero, there is so little noise even at 2000 ISO...even in pitch black night!  (Thank you Panny for giving us actual noise reduction control!!!...I doubt Sony will ever allow that)

My A7S-II used to be my "go to" low light camera but this S1 destroys it. The A7S-II's 8bit readout was always "splotchy" as Hell in the shadows and would clip the blue channel WAY to easily in SLog-3. The S1? No way,...its shadows are smooth as silk. Just super clean and highly  detailed in VLog. V-Gamut protects each RGB channel beautifully too!

Tell me: WHO'S SENSOR IS IN THIS THING???

CT

P.s......4k raw over HDMI is coming. I have a good source on this.

[Geoff_L]

21 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

P.s......4k raw over HDMI is coming. I have a good source on this.

Nikon or Panasonic ?!

[Andrew Reid]

I think it's an updated sensor compared to the similar 24MP one in the A7 III.

It's certainly very good... No scrub that, it's spectacular. Dynamic range, colour, low light, speed, everything.

With an internal codec this good, I don't want 4K raw over HDMI to tick a box, I want it internally. Yes, I am spoilt! No, I don't want to use an external recorder. Nice of them to try it though.

[abehalpert]

For those who say the image is too detailed - why not use a soft lens or lens filtration? Or both?

But in truth, I don't really need 4K-level detail either. It's more of a marketability thing for me...

PS: Yes, please, to RAW internally! That would be the day...

[Andrew Reid]

Just downscale the 4K in post. Done.

But really it boils down to viewing it right.

Complaining 4K of this standard is too detailed is a bit like scanning film and then complaining the scan is too good!

[Sid]

Quote

This is a Grade A cinema camera image.

I trust this judgement, but I understand companies like BBC and Netflix have exacting broadcast standards, and I was wondering if any of the mirrorless cameras, or the upcoming Panasonic video orientated professioanl mirrorless, will satisfy that sort of criteria...

[Andrew Reid]

To look at a lot of the BBC output you would not think they have exacting broadcast standards.

Andrew Marr show for several years used an old B camera for interviews that looked so different to the main camera, you'd think it was broken.

The quality of the broadcast as it ends up on most screens is usually moire-ridden.

C300 is used a lot and that absolutely PALES in comparison to what the S1 is capable of.

Netflix on the other hand do have much higher demands on technology.

The BBC will say they do and do the big ritual and test, but when it comes to the output you only have to look at it.

The cameras they used on Top Gear a few years ago in-car were terrible for instance... and now they are using GH5S.

So I am sure the S1 is good enough... even if Alan says No.

[Lars Steenhoff]

https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000579527-Cameras-and-Image-Capture

I know the S1 is not approved for Netflix but it could be based on the requirements, it would have to be with an external recorder for the I frame codec and data rate requirement.

Camera Requirements

Please note, not all cameras that meet these requirements will be approved as primary cameras. These requirements are the minimum specifications necessary for consideration. Other attributes must be taken into account such as dynamic range, form factor, stability, workflow compatibility etc. 

Resolution Requirements:

Camera must have a true 4K UHD sensor (equal to or greater than 3840 photosites wide).

Capture Requirements:

Capture Format

RAW (Sony RAW, REDCODE, Arriraw etc.)

COMPRESSED (XAVC, ProRes, or other I-Frame capable formats)

Minimum of 16-bit Linear or 10-bit Log processing

Minimum data-rate of Bitrate of 240 Mbps at 23.98 fps 

Capture Transfer Function

S-Log3, Log-C, V-Log, Log3G10, etc.

Capture Color Space

S-Gamut3.cine, RED Wide Gamut RGB, Alexa Wide Gamut, etc.

No looks or color corrections should be baked into the original camera files.

Files must maintain all metadata (i.e. Tape Name, Timecode, Frame Rate, ISO, WB, etc.).

Anamorphic Lenses:

If anamorphic lenses are being considered, camera selection must take into account the extra resolution required for capture. Contact your Netflix project lead to discuss implications or concerns.

[Cliff Totten]

Its funny. These BBC and Netflix requirements are somwhat silly. They want content at these specs but its impossible to even DELIVER that same content at even 1/4 of what they are asking for! I have been working at the same global media company for 23 years now. (Our social media policy strictly forbids me to say the name as I'm not an offical representative...I will just say that we are showing a ton of sharks on your TV right now)

We also have very high deliverable standards too from our vendors. The problem is that we broadcast in 1080 at 12-14 mbps. Cable affiliates take tha in and turn arround and recompress us to 8mbps for their cable systems and even lower if you have DirecTV. There goes all that high quality 4k standard! It's all WASTED on delivery!

Netflix gave the EVA1 clearance. The S1 matches the EVA1 in DR and completely destroys the EVA1 in signal to noise ratio! Aside for rolling shutter, the S1 is phenominal in VLog.

[Andrew Reid]

I-Frame capable...

So an ALL-I codec then?

If so, 240MBit is pushing it a bit.

10bit LOG in 150Mbit Long-GOP would probably look better.

Yes correct the 10bit codec on the S1 is same as EVA1 offers... However the EVA also has an ALL-I option I believe.

Netflix probably want hassle free editing and workflow, without computational overhead of a Long GOP codec.

[jessedacri]

The million dollar question - how’s the rolling shutter seem? No worse than an A7SII or A7RIII? 

 

I shoot a lot of documentary on a pretty purpose built A7SII(more recently I throw my A7RIII in for the better slog2 / sgamut3 color science and the APSC punch) rig running off V-mount batteries and recording ProRes to a Shogun. Directors I work with love my old Leica M and MS Optics lenses and the only camera I can provide the full image circle of this glass is a full frame offering like what I’m using. They’d rather take the 8bit 4:2:0 with the fun lenses over cropping them on an S35 cam with better color depth, or springing the cash for a Sony Venice. 

 

Seems to make major sense to move to the S1 or maybe S1H if it has IBIS. Especially considering I own 2 GH5 and a GH5S as my other package. 

 

 

Also side note re: Netflix and the requirements: a lot of the time they aren’t checking the exact specs of what’s being shot unless it’s an in-house show. We did the Demi Lovato doc with probably 25% Alexa and 75% externally recorded A7SII on my lenses. YouTube funded the project and the specs clearly excluded a camera like the A7S, but it’s what worked for the project and nobody ultimately objected or really even knew the specifics of what I had in my rig beyond the editor. Mileage may vary for sure but there seems to be a bit of leeway with the requirements if you’re not working directly on an something like an in-house Netflix gig. 

[Lux Shots]

On 7/23/2019 at 1:27 AM, Avenger 2.0 said:

I'm not sure TOF focus systems will be the complete solution. See all sort of problems with rain, glass, bars, etc fooling this system.
How will you do calibration? How about an event with multiple camera's that have a TOF focus system? Will they not interfere with each other?

Just like several users on this site posting at the same time get the correct response, you can encode the TOF transmission to the unique serial number of the camera.