Skip77 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said: They found space in an E-mount camera for one already. They may say that, but are they going to play a numbers game for no benefit to end user... crap 8K, bigger numbers on the box, all about specs... Or are they going to deliver a proper filmmaker's tool instead? Maybe they Weill surprise us. I think they will do crap 8K and they can say they were the first to do it. I ask this before: How does the S1 compare to the Z6 in pure cine video quality? Do you still have your Z6? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Totten Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 18 minutes ago, Skip77 said: You have to think Panasonic or Nikon surprised Sony with video specs they produce with the Z6 and S1. Nikon has more to 144 Mbps, 4K 30fps no crop, 12bit RAW external, better IBIS and upgrade in XQD card. The S1 went even further internally. That's seems to make the most sense for the delay. Sony was caught off guard and they said the A7SIII would be better then everyone expected. Nikon didnt catch Sony off guard. Nikon Z6 is a Sony IMX410. When Nikon purchased the sensor, they would have paid for the 10bit liscensing cost in the contract of sale. When you buy a Sony sensor, the functions you get are negotiated in the contract. So 8bit 4k 30p = $$ AND 8bit 4k 60p = $$$ and if you liscense 4k, 60p 10bit, your cost is $$$$$. The chip cost is higher as you add higher feature liscenses from Sony. The big question is: Did Panny go with an IMX410 for the S1? Or did they avoid Sony complety and go with Samsung? If Panny went with another sensor supplier than Sony was TRULY in the dark over what the S1 and S1H were going to have. If Panny DID buy Sony, than Sony was 100% aware of what Panny was building maybe a year ago or longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip77 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 16 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said: Nikon didnt catch Sony off guard. Nikon Z6 is a Sony IMX410. When Nikon purchased the sensor, they would have paid for the 10bit liscensing cost in the contract of sale. When you buy a Sony sensor, the functions you get are negotiated in the contract. So 8bit 4k 30p = $$ AND 8bit 4k 60p = $$$ and if you liscense 4k, 60p 10bit, your cost is $$$$$. The chip cost is higher as you add higher feature liscenses from Sony. The big question is: Did Panny go with an IMX410 for the S1? Or did they avoid Sony complety and go with Samsung? If Panny went with another sensor supplier than Sony was TRULY in the dark over what the S1 and S1H were going to have. If Panny DID buy Sony, than Sony was 100% aware of what Panny was building maybe a year ago or longer. Rumor has it the S1 does use the IMX410. https://www.l-rumors.com/the-panasonic-s1-probably-uses-the-new-sony-imx410-sensor/ Sony built the Nikon sensor to Nikons design specs. The rest of the Z6 specs had nothing to do with Sony, - body design, heat displacement, IBIS, color science, processor, and 144 Mbps. You make it sound like Sony is calling the sots. We don't know how the camera industry works behind the scenes. You don't know what Nikon negotiated with Sony and how it worked. That's what Nikon and Sony work with NDA's IMX410CQK These cameras Sony A7 III, Panasonic Lumix DC-S1, Nikon Z6, and Sigma fp use the IMX410CQK sensor. IMX410CQK - Spec PDF IMX410CQK_Flyer.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 I remember @androidlad mentioning that the A7Siii may use the same 61MP sensor as the A7Riii, albeit with a Quad Bayer pixel CFA plastered on top (IMX521, a high speed, high sensitivity Quad Bayer 15MP BSI FF sensor). That should improve lowlight substantially, maybe even dynamic range (?). I remember the new XEVC codecs that were doing the rounds. The only problem was that those codecs are h.265, which isn't the world's most popular codec. The IMX521 also has quite a few high speed shooting modes, albeit most with a slight crop. If Sony improved the colour science and added an internal ND, along with internal 10-bit video options, it could seriously challenge the S1, though it may lack resolution for photos, to protect Sony's other offerings. Sony sensors usually make it to public domain, after other manufacturers have worked on them long enough. There is always a possibility that Sony has a better version of the 24MP sensor with improved dynamic range and low light, with 10-bit for video and it could throw in an electronic ND. It may even have a 12-bit output via HDMI option. The main advantage it could have over Panasonic may be the continuous video autofocus. For everything else, there may be a tie. If HDMI has issues with lag, then the next generation of USB options should be explored for non delay feed into external monitors and recorders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
androidlad Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 9 minutes ago, Skip77 said: Rumor has it the S1 does use the IMX410. https://www.l-rumors.com/the-panasonic-s1-probably-uses-the-new-sony-imx410-sensor/ Sony built the Nikon sensor to Nikons design specs. The rest of the Z6 specs had nothing to do with Sony, - body design, heat displacement, IBIS, color science, processor, and 144 Mbps. You make it sound like Sony is calling the sots. We don't know how the camera industry works behind the scenes. You don't know what Nikon negotiated with Sony and how it worked. That's what Nikon and Sony work with NDA's IMX410CQK These cameras Sony A7 III, Panasonic Lumix DC-S1, Nikon Z6, and Sigma fp use the IMX410CQK sensor. IMX410CQK - Spec PDF IMX410CQK_Flyer.pdf 116.43 kB · 0 downloads They are all based on IMX410, but not all of them uses the particular CQK SKU. The CQK one does not have PDAF mask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmizer Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 You're missing out on silly things, the B2B sensor market is different from the consumer camera market ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip77 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, androidlad said: They are all based on IMX410, but not all of them uses the particular CQK SKU. The CQK one does not have PDAF mask. What's the CQK part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
androidlad Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 minute ago, Skip77 said: What's the CQK part? It's Sony Semicon's way to differentiate SKU, for example, IMX571AQR/BQR, IMX299CJK, IMX461XTK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Totten Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 44 minutes ago, Skip77 said: Rumor has it the S1 does use the IMX410. https://www.l-rumors.com/the-panasonic-s1-probably-uses-the-new-sony-imx410-sensor/ Sony built the Nikon sensor to Nikons design specs. The rest of the Z6 specs had nothing to do with Sony, - body design, heat displacement, IBIS, color science, processor, and 144 Mbps. You make it sound like Sony is calling the sots. We don't know how the camera industry works behind the scenes. You don't know what Nikon negotiated with Sony and how it worked. That's what Nikon and Sony work with NDA's IMX410CQK These cameras Sony A7 III, Panasonic Lumix DC-S1, Nikon Z6, and Sigma fp use the IMX410CQK sensor. IMX410CQK - Spec PDF IMX410CQK_Flyer.pdf 116.43 kB · 0 downloads I know two people that are in the sensor industry. One of them has purchased sensors from Sony for his company. He is under NDA but he has told me that this is how Sony sensor liscensing works. Its not "buy a sensor and get everything" deal. You buy the sensor and license what features you want. If you pay for and licence 8bit 30p and you turn around enable 10bit 60p....you get sued! Your license is specific and affects the price you pay. On the IMX410....we dont know if its that sensor! Why?....because that sensor has dual pixel phase detect architecture! That sensor requires pixel masking...that Panasonic says they HATE doing and wont do on a Panny camera. (Part of their excuse as to why the "prefer" contrast detect AF...even though every moden camera makes the dead pixels on every sensor today) Maybe it is a IMX410 variant with the dual photosite grid removed in the die. We will never know untill Tech Insights x-rays it. The HILARIOUS thing is that every year at NAB, the Panasonic booth continues to say that the GH5 and GH5-S are "Our sensors that are made by Panasonic"....yeah right! Nikon says this too! Why do camera companies HATE admitting they are buying common Sony sensors for their cameras? Is it really THAT embarassing? Skip77 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip77 Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 27 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said: I know two people that are in the sensor industry. One of them has purchased sensors from Sony for his company. He is under NDA but he has told me that this is how Sony sensor liscensing works. Its not "buy a sensor and get everything" deal. You buy the sensor and license what features you want. If you pay for and licence 8bit 30p and you turn around enable 10bit 60p....you get sued! Your license is specific and affects the price you pay. On the IMX410....we dont know if its that sensor! Why?....because that sensor has dual pixel phase detect architecture! That sensor requires pixel masking...that Panasonic says they HATE doing and wont do on a Panny camera. (Part of their excuse as to why the "prefer" contrast detect AF...even though every moden camera makes the dead pixels on every sensor today) Maybe it is a IMX410 variant with the dual photosite grid removed in the die. We will never know untill Tech Insights x-rays it. The HILARIOUS thing is that every year at NAB, the Panasonic booth continues to say that the GH5 and GH5-S are "Our sensors that are made by Panasonic"....yeah right! Nikon says this too! Why do camera companies HATE admitting they are buying common Sony sensors for their cameras? Is it really THAT embarassing? Didn't Nikon say Sony specially built the sensor that the Z series are using ? The agreement part between Nikon and Sony might be wide one also. The companies share some tech but Nikon wouldn't let Sony call the shots either. Ye I'm sure Nikon paid a price for the Sony sensors but it might not be limited like you think it is. Getting 10bit 4K is not limited controlled by the sensor out put or unlocked like you claim. Taking full advantage of a sensor like Nikon is doing with Atomos doesn't seem like it's restricted by the type of license they bought. This is just my take on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Totten Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, Skip77 said: Didn't Nikon say Sony specially built the sensor that the Z series are using ? The agreement part between Nikon and Sony might be wide one also. The companies share some tech but Nikon wouldn't let Sony call the shots either. Ye I'm sure Nikon paid a price for the Sony sensors but it might not be limited like you think it is. Getting 10bit 4K is not limited controlled by the sensor out put or unlocked like you claim. Taking full advantage of a sensor like Nikon is doing with Atomos doesn't seem like it's restricted by the type of license they bought. This is just my take on this. Its not a sensor lock or any hardware restriction, it's a "legal" contractual restriction. Sony believes that the industry value of their sensor is higher, the more feature liscensing modes you purchase. Its a modular sales contract. In theory, if you want to buy a Sony sensor for a photo camera "only" with no video use modes at all,...that sensor will be cheaper than if you purchased 10bit 4k 60p add on. That same sensor liscensing will now cost you more. (Brcause its industry value is now higher in Sony's eyes) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
androidlad Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 55 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said: I know two people that are in the sensor industry. One of them has purchased sensors from Sony for his company. He is under NDA but he has told me that this is how Sony sensor liscensing works. Its not "buy a sensor and get everything" deal. You buy the sensor and license what features you want. If you pay for and licence 8bit 30p and you turn around enable 10bit 60p....you get sued! Your license is specific and affects the price you pay. On the IMX410....we dont know if its that sensor! Why?....because that sensor has dual pixel phase detect architecture! That sensor requires pixel masking...that Panasonic says they HATE doing and wont do on a Panny camera. (Part of their excuse as to why the "prefer" contrast detect AF...even though every moden camera makes the dead pixels on every sensor today) Maybe it is a IMX410 variant with the dual photosite grid removed in the die. We will never know untill Tech Insights x-rays it. The HILARIOUS thing is that every year at NAB, the Panasonic booth continues to say that the GH5 and GH5-S are "Our sensors that are made by Panasonic"....yeah right! Nikon says this too! Why do camera companies HATE admitting they are buying common Sony sensors for their cameras? Is it really THAT embarassing? Dual pixel phase detect is a Canon patent. Sony's PDAF is simply a pixel mask. As I've mentioned earlier, the CQK SKU of IMX410 does not have PDAF mask, it's used by S1 and ZCAM F6. So much bullshark in the sea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geo Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 On 7/19/2019 at 2:31 PM, Geoff_L said: OK, sorry, I couldn't resist anymore ... 300€ immediately off, 1 free battery (90€ worth), and the 200€ worth offered VLOG upgrade finished my efforts to resist... OK, now I have to sell a lot of stuff ahah ! On 7/19/2019 at 2:31 PM, Geoff_L said: OK, sorry, I couldn't resist anymore ... 300€ immediately off, 1 free battery (90€ worth), and the 200€ worth offered VLOG upgrade finished my efforts to resist... OK, now I have to sell a lot of stuff ahah ! What about the ibis ? is it really in par with the GH5 ? It seem's to me a bit more jerky...But i i was not able to test it on long term .)) So....can you give us your feeling ? Georges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Totten Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 8 minutes ago, androidlad said: Dual pixel phase detect is a Canon patent. Sony's PDAF is simply a pixel mask. As I've mentioned earlier, the CQK SKU of IMX410 does not have PDAF mask, it's used by S1 and ZCAM F6. So much bullshark in the sea. No, Sony PDAF is a dual pixel structure almost identical to Canon's dual pixel. There are twin photosites that use the space that a single standard image pixel uses. Sony is true "dual pixel" PDAF. Its not just Canon. CT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andjo Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 I found the free S1 v-log (DMW-SFU2) claim process a tad confusing since regions seem to have different approaches, so I did this incomplete summary from what I've been able to gather: US: The process here seem to be that you contact the store where you bought the camera and they will send you it free of charge. Some people have reported that Adorama have denied them the upgrade, in those cases contact (nancym -at- adorama.com) directly and she will help you. UK: https://promotions.panasonic.co.uk Scandinavia (Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland): https://lumixs1upgrade.refundere.com Anyone have more links and which region they are valid for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip77 Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 5 hours ago, Cliff Totten said: Its not a sensor lock or any hardware restriction, it's a "legal" contractual restriction. Sony believes that the industry value of their sensor is higher, the more feature liscensing modes you purchase. Its a modular sales contract. In theory, if you want to buy a Sony sensor for a photo camera "only" with no video use modes at all,...that sensor will be cheaper than if you purchased 10bit 4k 60p add on. That same sensor liscensing will now cost you more. (Brcause its industry value is now higher in Sony's eyes) You don't know that and are guessing at best. The S1 and Z6 share the sam sensor. Look at the footage from both cameras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 That is because Nikon doesn't know as much about video as well as Panasonic does. Pretty simple. Panasonic has been making Broadcast Cine stuff for hell 30 years, or more. Mostly 1/2" sensor 3 CCD stuff in the early years. Way cheaper price than Sony, Ikegami was charging. Yeah Nikon made like VHS type consumer video camcorders for years long time ago, I had a couple. They had really good lenses on them. They got the job done, but they were not as good as Sony Camcorders, really nothing was at the time was as good to be honest. But hey you gets what you pay for. nathlas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanveer Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 7 hours ago, androidlad said: If you pay for and licence 8bit 30p and you turn around enable 10bit 60p....you get sued! Your license is specific and affects the price you pay. Is there some way to procure a copy of this contract, that is in restraint of trade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff_L Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 7 hours ago, andjo said: I found the free S1 v-log (DMW-SFU2) claim process a tad confusing since regions seem to have different approaches, so I did this incomplete summary from what I've been able to gather: US: The process here seem to be that you contact the store where you bought the camera and they will send you it free of charge. Some people have reported that Adorama have denied them the upgrade, in those cases contact (nancym -at- adorama.com) directly and she will help you. UK: https://promotions.panasonic.co.uk Scandinavia (Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland): https://lumixs1upgrade.refundere.com Anyone have more links and which region they are valid for? France : https://offre-lumix-s1.e-odr.fr/fr/inscription/ You have to fill in the form, and it's written you'll receive it in a week. Seems valid for France, Belgium and Luxembourg. andjo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip77 Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 51 minutes ago, webrunner5 said: That is because Nikon doesn't know as much about video as well as Panasonic does. Pretty simple. Panasonic has been making Broadcast Cine stuff for hell 30 years, or more. Mostly 1/2" sensor 3 CCD stuff in the early years. Way cheaper price than Sony, Ikegami was charging. Yeah Nikon made like VHS type consumer video camcorders for years long time ago, I had a couple. They had really good lenses on them. They got the job done, but they were not as good as Sony Camcorders, really nothing was at the time was as good to be honest. But hey you gets what you pay for. Done as much or knows as much are two different things. The photography side from sensor on DSLR and smaller cameras, Nikon does know very well. - The Z6 and S1 video footage looks almost identical. Until someone shows me footage to prove that's not true then it's just lip service. - Nikon knows enough to be the first full frame camera to do 10 bit 4K external. That's before Panasonic and Sony and Canon. - I'm all ears and eyes to see that the S1 is better then the Z6. - 12 bit RAW Pro Res is coming from Nikon. So not sure what your point is. Nikon stepped up and delivered not only great spec'd video but great looking video quality. Nikon knows video now don't they? Zeng 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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