Panasonic S1 V-LOG -- New image quality king of the hill

[Otago]

1 minute ago, funkyou86 said:

Nope, 640 is the lowest you can go with the V-log. 

I will do some more detailed test (V-log vs. HLG as well) and upload everything to my blog, but I have a shoot next week and I have to prep.

Sorry, should've been clearer, I meant the noise reduction and sharpening. I'm wondering if it can match the smooth look of Pocket 4k, it looks amazing but the Pocket 4k looks nicer to my eyes, even with the slightly lower dynamic range - perhaps it's RAW vs H.265 though. 

[funkyou86]

1 minute ago, Otago said:

Sorry, should've been clearer, I meant the noise reduction and sharpening. I'm wondering if it can match the smooth look of Pocket 4k, it looks amazing but the Pocket 4k looks nicer to my eyes, even with the slightly lower dynamic range - perhaps it's RAW vs H.265 though. 

0 is the lowest you can go for the sharpening/NR (Panasonic slightly changed the UI, it's not like on the GH5 where you had negative values). 

Get the free resolve, download the footages and try to match them together  It's not impossible, but there's a learning curve, like I wrote earlier, I unintentionally overexposed the Pocket screengrab, don't take it as a reference. My goal was to show you all how differently are these two cameras handling the same situation and to upload some sample clips, because I did not had the opportunity to compare the two cameras before buying them.

[deezid]

14 minutes ago, funkyou86 said:

0 is the lowest you can go for the sharpening/NR (Panasonic slightly changed the UI, it's not like on the GH5 where you had negative values). 

Get the free resolve, download the footages and try to match them together  It's not impossible, but there's a learning curve, like I wrote earlier, I unintentionally overexposed the Pocket screengrab, don't take it as a reference. My goal was to show you all how differently are these two cameras handling the same situation and to upload some sample clips, because I did not had the opportunity to compare the two cameras before buying them.

The V-Log S1 sample is free of any sharpening and nr artifacts, wondering what this guy is talking about lol. If anything the S1 looks noticeably smoother.
The Braw sample is full of noise and hair looks (enhanced). The exposure could have been even hotter to reduce the noise honestly, you can still lower ISO later to add some contrast back 

After two minutes of matching without any secondaries I came up with this.

 

S1 V-Log

 

P4K BMD Film V4

[funkyou86]

1 minute ago, deezid said:

The V-Log S1 sample is free of any sharpening and nr artifacts, wondering what this guy is talking about lol
The Braw sample is full of noise and hair looks (enhanced). The exposure could have been even hotter to reduce the noise honestly, you can still lower ISO later to add some contrast back later

The S1 looks good to me as well.

However, please check Geralds video on exposing the BMPCC4K, where he explains how does the different ISO values impact your final image and why is shooting on the base ISO a good thing. So, my footage is far from great, but isn't that the reason why raw was invented? ?

 

[Patrick B.]

@deezid nice. I’ve never shot on a Varicam but I feel like the S1 v-log gets in the realm of that creaminess which i love so much in Varicam samples I’ve seen.

[Timx98]

Got my VLOG today (i asked my local dealer to put me on a first available list and got the only one coming in this week  )

I've narrowed down my LUTS to three favorites. Can I get some opinions on which one you like best and why? I'll post what each LUT is afterward, so it doesn't influence anyone's decision. 

LUT test - video

 

[Otago]

16 hours ago, deezid said:

The V-Log S1 sample is free of any sharpening and nr artifacts, wondering what this guy is talking about lol. If anything the S1 looks noticeably smoother.
The Braw sample is full of noise and hair looks (enhanced). The exposure could have been even hotter to reduce the noise honestly, you can still lower ISO later to add some contrast back 

I think I am probably not using the right terminology, or haven't understood what noise or sharpening artefacts look like. Probably both ?

The image look smoother to me on the BMPCC 4k ( when not at 100% ) for some reason. I agree that the BMPCC 4K is definitely noisier, is it just there is more detail coming from a 6k sensor downsampled to 4k in the S1 rather than a 4k bayer sensor on the BMPCC 4k ?

I have played around in Resolve with the files but I am still far from proficient ?

As I said, I think they both look great, it's very much nit picking for the uses I have for the camera - oh to have a few weeks and a far higher credit limit to try them all out. 

[helium]

I don't see any "enhancement" in the braw image (this is a tune only deezid seems to play) or objectionable noise.  It looks like the Panny is resolving a bit more detail. braw first, panny second.

 

[1Ale82]

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20 hours ago, helium said:

I don't see any "enhancement" in the braw image (this is a tune only deezid seems to play) or objectionable noise.  It looks like the Panny is resolving a bit more detail. braw first, panny second.

I don't know if it's mainly for the full frame vs 2x crop factor, but I prefer the panasonic image. It's a personal opinion, but there is less "videoish" look to it.  But I also like the way the BMPK 4K renders the window in the upper left corner and the black armchair in the background, where you have almost total blown out whites and total blacks. That armchair speaks a lot for the sensor capabilities.

[deezid]

4 minutes ago, 1Ale82 said:

I

I don't know if it's mainly for the full frame vs 2x crop factor, but I prefer the panasonic image. It's a personal opinion, but there is less "videoish" look to it.  But I also like the way the BMPK 4K renders the window in the upper left corner and the black armchair in the background, where you have almost total blown out whites and total blacks. That armchair speaks a lot for the sensor capabilities.

Look at the comparison on top. there's nothing blown out in any of these two samples, but the BMP4K has significantly more noise in the shadows and some haloing going on in the girls hair.

The S1 looks basically perfect - maybe too perfect - in this example and clearly has an advantage in color science and dynamic range.

On 8/24/2019 at 6:38 AM, Timx98 said:

Got my VLOG today (i asked my local dealer to put me on a first available list and got the only one coming in this week  )

I've narrowed down my LUTS to three favorites. Can I get some opinions on which one you like best and why? I'll post what each LUT is afterward, so it doesn't influence anyone's decision. 

LUT test - video

 

First image is GHa?
It's a winner anyway

[helium]

39 minutes ago, deezid said:

Look at the comparison on top. there's nothing blown out in any of these two samples, but the BMP4K has significantly more noise in the shadows and some haloing going on in the girls hair.

The S1 looks basically perfect - maybe too perfect - in this example and clearly has an advantage in color science and dynamic range.

The S1 had a significantly brighter exposure, so I don't know that you can compare noise of the two shots.  The haloing thing, seen with Prores and braw, is not visible to the naked eye, least of all with moving pictures as opposed to stills.  Why the fuss about this one, I don't know.

Based on this one S1 sample, my guess is that the S1 does have more DR, but impossible to say without a rigorous comparison.  

1Alex82:  the blown-out window in the S1 shot is not really blown out.  On the principle that we were doing a fast one-light adjustment, I let it go "as is".  This didn't occur on the BMPCC 4K shot because the initial exposure was darker.  Neither shot is actually clipped.  The other issues you remarked on may have more to do with initial exposure levels, and the fact that there's much less DOF in the S1 shot, and consequently less contrast in those areas.  Use of power windows would alter things somewhat.

 

[deezid]

True. Still the S1 in my own tests shows more lattitude even with HLG at the moment, will receive my V-Log code today maybe and may do some more comparisons.
When you do ETTR on the P4K even shooting in RAW the image starts looking "thin" but is free of noise though.

The haloing issue creates an overall more videoish looking image with harsher microcontrast while the noise reduction filters actual detail in some cases.
The Pocket6K btw looks way cleaner.

 

[1Ale82]

1 hour ago, deezid said:

Look at the comparison on top. there's nothing blown out in any of these two samples, but the BMP4K has significantly more noise in the shadows and some haloing going on in the girls hair.

The S1 looks basically perfect - maybe too perfect - in this example and clearly has an advantage in color science and dynamic range.

 

26 minutes ago, helium said:

The S1 had a significantly brighter exposure, so I don't know that you can compare noise of the two shots.  The haloing thing, seen with Prores and braw, is not visible to the naked eye, least of all with moving pictures as opposed to stills.  Why the fuss about this one, I don't know.

Based on this one S1 sample, my guess is that the S1 does have more DR, but impossible to say without a rigorous comparison.  

1Alex82:  the blown-out window in the S1 shot is not really blown out.  On the principle that we were doing a fast one-light adjustment, I let it go "as is".  This didn't occur on the BMPCC 4K shot because the initial exposure was darker.  Neither shot is actually clipped.  The other issues you remarked on may have more to do with initial exposure levels, and the fact that there's much less DOF in the S1 shot, and consequently less contrast in those areas.  Use of power windows would alter things somewhat.

 

Maybe I did not say it well. I was no saying the image has blown out areas. I was saying that this kind of situation is really stressing on sensor capabilities. You have reflections on polished or metal surfaces and recessed areas which create like a black hole. Basically it's like having several small Syper Cubes in the scene testing the upper and lower dynamic range of the cameras and both perform well. If we look at the highlight of the images posted in deezid's post both cameras also perform really well.

It's a personal preference but I still prefer the S1 image, which is the camera I would (and quite probably will) get given the choice. 

What lenses where used for the shots? The same lens on both cameras so it can be a fair comparison?

[helium]

These fairly trivial differences tend to fall away, in face of an actual colorist.   Internet forums are one thing.  The real world is another.

If you want to see video-looking footage, repair to the Arri Alexa site and download some of their clips of shrubbery, rocks and gravel.

[funkyou86]

57 minutes ago, 1Ale82 said:

What lenses where used for the shots? The same lens on both cameras so it can be a fair comparison?

25mm MFT on the P4K, 50mm samyang on the S1. More info in my blog »

If I will get my hands on a 35mm Samyang, I will compare it (with a Speedbooster on the P4K) to a 50mm on the S1.

 

2 minutes ago, helium said:

These fairly trivial differences tend to fall away, in face of an actual colorist.

Yep, I absolutely agree. 

[helium]

The great news is, there are now cameras, including these two, which produce a theatrical-quality cinema image for maybe 5% of the price of one year of film school.  And for the cost of another credit or two, you get a grading suite which used to run $800/hr.

The bad news is, great DPs, lighting, production design and actors haven't gotten any cheaper.  And let's not even get started on the writing.

[1Ale82]

6 minutes ago, helium said:

The great news is, there are now cameras, including these two, which produce a theatrical-quality cinema image for maybe 5% of the price of one year of film school.  And for the cost of another credit or two, you get a grading suite which used to run $800/hr.

The bad news is, great DPs, lighting, production design and actors haven't gotten any cheaper.  And let's not even get started on the writing.

Agree on the first part, just compare a 2019 2000 euro camera and a 2015 20000 euro camera. 

Disagree on the second part, intellectual work, specialised handicrafts or arts should never follow a race to the bottom of prices

[helium]

That's not really what I was saying.  Just pointing out the obvious.  A great camera without the production values only money can buy is useless, outside of the realm of the hobbyist or dreamer-only filmmaker. 

And it's not a forgone conclusion that an actual no-budget movie benefits from a great camera, except to the extent the movie is so badly shot, it doesn't look like a great camera.

[Justforfun]

On 8/24/2019 at 12:38 AM, Timx98 said:

Got my VLOG today (i asked my local dealer to put me on a first available list and got the only one coming in this week  )

I've narrowed down my LUTS to three favorites. Can I get some opinions on which one you like best and why? I'll post what each LUT is afterward, so it doesn't influence anyone's decision. 

LUT test - video

 

Is the first one Ghalexa? 

[helium]

The difference between the LUTs is so insignificant, compared to the likely grading you'd want to do on this shot, that it doesn't seem worth worrying over.  The more important question might how much adjustment is available after the application of one LUT or another.