Panasonic S1 V-LOG -- New image quality king of the hill

[Skip77]

24 minutes ago, Towd said:

Sony, Nikon, and Canon don't shoot 10 bit internally until you step up to their pro cinema line.  The rest is irrelevant.

Is your comment a deflection to take us away from poor AF tracking on the S1? 

Canon and Nikon are relevant because the 10 bit image quality stands up and they can record 10 bit external. Any pro will have an external monitor on set and using the Atomos Ninja IS A CINE monitor and recorder with all the bells and whistles that you need or could ask for. 

I would compare image quality on the S1 to Canon and Nikon before you throw out cine comments.

 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

42 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

This is the same GH5 Lumix argument about AF tracking since the camera was released. 

Have the choice of AF tracking or using manual is just that. Use what works for you. But on the S1, GH5, GH5s and S1R the AF tracking is not very good. 

It's the NOT VERY GOOD part is the issues here. It should be as good as Canon, Sony or Nikon.  

Another Lumix AF excuse "many people will still enjoy using manual focus for the spontaneous creative control it provides."  How is using AF tracking with the touch screen any less spontaneous then using manual focus?  

Next you will say "manual focus is more organic then AF".

The Red Gemini, Alexa Mini, Varicam LT, and Ursa Mini Pro have pretty bad tracking AF, too. Maybe I should disqualify them from my future projects in favor of an A7III.

[mercer]

Sony and Nikon’s AF looks electronic anyway. So who cares if they have it? If you want organic focus, pull it manually or use a Canon.

[Skip77]

27 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

The Red Gemini, Alexa Mini, Varicam LT, and Ursa Mini Pro have pretty bad tracking AF, too. Maybe I should disqualify them from my future projects in favor of an A7III.

Those cameras are not in the same discussion. Mirrorless and the fact that Nikon, Canon and Sony have great AF tracking. 

The Red Gemini, Alexa Mini, Varicam LT, and Ursa Mini Pro are NOT hybrid stills / video cameras are they?

6 minutes ago, mercer said:

Sony and Nikon’s AF looks electronic anyway. So who cares if they have it? If you want organic focus, pull it manually or use a Canon.

Electronic in what way? Oh you mean once they lock on they lock on?  You haven't used AF tracking have you?

[hijodeibn]

6 minutes ago, mercer said:

Sony and Nikon’s AF looks electronic anyway. So who cares if they have it? If you want organic focus, pull it manually or use a Canon.

Unfortunately this is true, DPAF is the only organic AF out there, in my case the reason I am using Canon for docs, and still didn't see any close enough to move.....

[webrunner5]

4 hours ago, Skip77 said:

If you're on a S1 or GH5 thread and making excuses for AF tracking for video then that is an excuse for the camera not working the way AF tracking works. 

Not caring is because YOU NEVER had or understood how AF tracking works. Some think AF is not used by pro's because manual is the only way to go. That's correct from a pro's stand point but they NEVER had AF tracking in a pro cine camera. 

AF tracking tracks the subject you lock onto. And if you're really shooting weddings or non locked down shots YOU will simple get beat by good AF tracking every time if you go manual.

I 100% guarantee you don't try certain shots because you can't pull them off with handheld, manual focus thru the EVF.  Don't like the messenger all you want but I'm speaking the truth and trying to help. 

I am pretty sure Mattias, even at his age, is about 10 times smarter than you at this stuff, and a hell of a lot better at what he is doing. You can come on here and act like some smart ass, but what you are coming across as, is a dumb ass. The people you are knocking are some of the best we have on here. Sometimes it is just better to keep your mouth shut, and not show what little you Do know. I have not seen you say one F ing intelligent thing since you have been on here.

[drm]

1 hour ago, hijodeibn said:

Unfortunately this is true, DPAF is the only organic AF out there, in my case the reason I am using Canon for docs, and still didn't see any close enough to move.....

Panasonic is supposed to be working on TOF focus systems. I suspect within a generation or two of the cameras we will see that feature added. Those systems will be superhuman accurate. When those kick in, it will give the hybrid cameras like the S1(mark 2 or 3) a distinct advantage over the cinema cameras. 

Personally, I don't consider any of the current continuous AF systems on the SLR type cameras to be reliable enough. Even the best system can lose focus, like if the person turns around or something comes between them and the camera (like their hands). Having the camera suddenly focus on the background = ruined shot. I would prefer for a person to smoothly go out of focus when they move (if I don't keep up) rather than have the camera freak out and focus on the background or foreground. Having a slight delay while I manually focus (minimal with focus peaking) is totally fine with me. I like the look of smooth focus pulls.

The S1 footage that I have seen after the latest firmware update shows that the S1 resists this type of focus problem, but it still has the micro pulses, which I can't stand. It is certainly way better than my GH5 or GH5s, but I am not sure that it is good enough yet. 

It would be really nice to have a good continuous AF for gimbal work, etc. Maybe the new high-end Canon mirrorless will have 10 bit 4k/60 internal with Canon's decent continuous AF.

To be honest, this is why I don't have 3 S1s right now. I am curious what is coming from Canon and Sony (A7SIII).

[Mattias Burling]

2 hours ago, Skip77 said:

Electronic in what way? Oh you mean once they lock on they lock on?  You haven't used AF tracking have you?

IMO, It's not as accurate as MF, doesn't understand when you want to track something else, can't change speed without digging into the menu, doesn't work on manual lenses, messes up your grip, the list goes on.

Again, no excuses, just don't care about it working or not. My workhorse is equiped with the best video AF there is. Never use it.

5 hours ago, Skip77 said:

If you're on a S1 or GH5 thread and making excuses for AF tracking for video then that is an excuse for the camera not working the way AF tracking works. 

I haven't seen anybody make such excuses.

5 hours ago, Skip77 said:

Not caring is because YOU NEVER had or understood how AF tracking works. 

I know perfectly well how it works thank you. Btw, you don't get to dictate why others reason the way they do. No one said you weren't allowed to wish for good AF in the Panasonic. You can wish it to give you a golden shower for all I care. We just have our opinion on it.

[Avenger 2.0]

1 hour ago, drm said:

Panasonic is supposed to be working on TOF focus systems. I suspect within a generation or two of the cameras we will see that feature added. Those systems will be superhuman accurate. When those kick in, it will give the hybrid cameras like the S1(mark 2 or 3) a distinct advantage over the cinema cameras. 

I'm not sure TOF focus systems will be the complete solution. See all sort of problems with rain, glass, bars, etc fooling this system.
How will you do calibration? How about an event with multiple camera's that have a TOF focus system? Will they not interfere with each other?

[thebrothersthre3]

2 hours ago, hijodeibn said:

Unfortunately this is true, DPAF is the only organic AF out there, in my case the reason I am using Canon for docs, and still didn't see any close enough to move.....

Have you used the A6400 or the A9 with new firmware? 

From what I've seen sony just needs to do some touch ups to make it a bit more organic.

[nathlas]

Α9's main issue for video use is DR that is far inferior than A73 for example.

Of course new A9II will be improved but I don't think that those cameras are for our breed.

 

There is nothing to compare with S1 that seems to be a GH5S with FF sensor and ibis.

 

[Justforfun]

On 7/20/2019 at 11:40 PM, Skip77 said:

This makes no sense at all. You want great IBIS but can live with bad AF to do run n gun video.  And only if your subject is moving slow and to / from camera. Really? 

Some one said it was AF compromise......?? What? AF just needs to work well. Sony, Nikon and Canon have very good AF and maybe the S1 does with the new firmware.  Until then it's not good to make excuses for the S1. 

Hopefully it's not GH5 level bad were people make excuses for it.

Lol have you tried MFing with these cameras?  I'm sure whatever camera you own has good MF assist so you def should try. Even with fly by wire lenses it's actually pretty easy and I dont use any fancy focus systems.  It's much more reliable to go in and out of focus smoothly with MF and peaking as opposed to AF. In run and gun situation there's just too many things coming in and out of the frame especially in street.  That's why I favour the really good IBIS because I can comfortably hold the camera with my right hand and adjust focus with my left and still have stable footage with smooth focus pulls.

I'm not Making excuses by the way, but I had the A7iii and XT3 and frankly even with the AF I would still MF when I need reliable focus pulls. 

[Walter H]

@Skip77 You are not trying to help. You are jerking your ego with an argument, soapboxing, being disparaging to others, and dragging all of us thru it. That's my experience of your presence and intention anyway.

So how about F*CK OFF this thread and give users who either own or are genuinely interested in the camera the opportunity to share and work with one another to get the most out of the tool. 

Minimally, I will ignore you and I suggest others not reply or quote you unless you are posting something constructive. 

 

[Brooke ZILR]

43 minutes ago, Justforfun said:

I'm not Making excuses by the way, but I had the A7iii and XT3 and frankly even with the AF I would still MF when I need reliable focus pulls. 

How do you find the Fuji X-T3? It looks interesting for a 4Kp60 10-bit camera.

[drm]

9 minutes ago, Walter H said:

@Skip77 You are not trying to help. You are jerking your ego with an argument, soapboxing, being disparaging to others, and dragging all of us thru it. That's my experience of your presence and intention anyway.

So how about F*CK OFF this thread and give users who either own or are genuinely interested in the camera the opportunity to share and work with one another to get the most out of the tool. 

Minimally, I will ignore you and I suggest others not reply or quote you unless you are posting something constructive. 

 

LOL...I don't know. I have gotten a good chuckle out of the whole thing. I have also learned that there are a lot of people like me that prefer to manual focus their cameras. The Panasonic cameras & the P4Ks have good focus peaking. I use focus peaking with a follow focus wheel and I am happy with the results.

To me, it is a little bit like the auto vs. manual transmission debate. Yes, the automatic can shift faster and get better fuel mileage, but I don't care. In certain cars, I like the control of moving that lever myself. Same with focusing my cameras  

[Skip77]

10 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

IMO, It's not as accurate as MF, doesn't understand when you want to track something else, can't change speed without digging into the menu, doesn't work on manual lenses, messes up your grip, the list goes on.

Again, no excuses, just don't care about it working or not. My workhorse is equiped with the best video AF there is. Never use it.

I haven't seen anybody make such excuses.

I know perfectly well how it works thank you. Btw, you don't get to dictate why others reason the way they do. No one said you weren't allowed to wish for good AF in the Panasonic. You can wish it to give you a golden shower for all I care. We just have our opinion on it.

I gave 100% accurate reasons why AF tracking is better in certain situations that can't be duplicated by manual focus.  

Do us a favor and post 1 sample were AF tracking isn't laced on a working perfect ( not from a Lumix camera). Post one example that shows the AF system "thought" is had focus but didn't. 

You comments are not true. 

Don't use AF tracking if you have a camera were it works. AF tracking is like anything else on the camera and you have to watch it and make sure it's working and then adjust as you go.

I shoot everything else in manual settings and you have to watch those settings the same way.

You say you like manual better because it's like the transition in a car ( not) but you've never use AF tracking that works right.  That's ok keep on commenting about a system you haven't use correctly.

3 hours ago, Walter H said:

@Skip77 You are not trying to help. You are jerking your ego with an argument, soapboxing, being disparaging to others, and dragging all of us thru it. That's my experience of your presence and intention anyway.

So how about F*CK OFF this thread and give users who either own or are genuinely interested in the camera the opportunity to share and work with one another to get the most out of the tool. 

Minimally, I will ignore you and I suggest others not reply or quote you unless you are posting something constructive. 

 

Sorry Walter H but this is a free board and bullies like you don't control it.

I am trying to help and my comments reflect that. If Mattias Burling only used Lumix cameras for video AF tracking then I can see why he uses MANUAL FOCUS and defends it to the ends of the earth. 

AF tracking is a tool on the hybrid cameras that should works as advertised. That's it. From those comments we got comments that "manual focus is only what pros use, manual focus is used while hand held through the view finder and AF is not accurate."

This wasn't a AF vs Manual focus but that AF tracking should works on a camera. The additional comments I made were in response to the excuses abut how manual focus is the best way to go even during handheld thru the viewfinder. Any videographer knows you're limited using the EVF only and are limited in the shots you can get going all manual. Sorry but that's the 100% truth. In the hybrid word this is 100% accurate. 

So you can take the "I'm trying to help" comment how you want. I was in the same boat as Mattias Burling when I had my Lumix camera and only used manual focus.

[Skip77]

4 hours ago, Justforfun said:

Lol have you tried MFing with these cameras?  I'm sure whatever camera you own has good MF assist so you def should try. Even with fly by wire lenses it's actually pretty easy and I dont use any fancy focus systems.  It's much more reliable to go in and out of focus smoothly with MF and peaking as opposed to AF. In run and gun situation there's just too many things coming in and out of the frame especially in street.  That's why I favour the really good IBIS because I can comfortably hold the camera with my right hand and adjust focus with my left and still have stable footage with smooth focus pulls.

I'm not Making excuses by the way, but I had the A7iii and XT3 and frankly even with the AF I would still MF when I need reliable focus pulls. 

Yes I use manual focus when I need it. I started with film and manual focus lens back in the 80's so I'm very used to manual focus. 

I use the Z6 that has good IBIS and I use AF tracking when I hand hold the camera and need a little added moment or a lot of movement with the camera. I use the touch screen to lock on the subject and the use the back screen to compose and baby-sit the shot. Good AF tracking and IBIS is a must. 

[thebrothersthre3]

7 hours ago, nathlas said:

Α9's main issue for video use is DR that is far inferior than A73 for example.

Of course new A9II will be improved but I don't think that those cameras are for our breed.

 

There is nothing to compare with S1 that seems to be a GH5S with FF sensor and ibis.

 

True but in terms of auto focus is pretty amazing as is the A6400. 

[Skip77]

12 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I am pretty sure Mattias, even at his age, is about 10 times smarter than you at this stuff, and a hell of a lot better at what he is doing. You can come on here and act like some smart ass, but what you are coming across as, is a dumb ass. The people you are knocking are some of the best we have on here. Sometimes it is just better to keep your mouth shut, and not show what little you Do know. I have not seen you say one F ing intelligent thing since you have been on here.

 

Why is everything you don't understand, you come off and attack with insults?

I said AF tracking should work and you can get great results if you use it. What issue do you have with that comment?  If Mattias isn't confident about AF then he's not using It. Cameras have gotten better with AF and all these comments were based on the S1.

You haven't seen my work brother so leave it alone. I never knocked anyones work and I don't do that.  You on the other hand have made countless comments about my work, that you haven't seen, and others work. You seem to be on a high horse that think it's ok to put others down.

30 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

True but in terms of auto focus is pretty amazing as is the A6400. 

Yes the A6400 AF is amazing. Sony is leading in AF tech right now and good for them.  If people knew how good AF has gotten they wouldn't let Panasonic off with the S1 AF performance. No work around with the AF pulsing the S1 does. 

 

13 hours ago, mercer said:

Sony and Nikon’s AF looks electronic anyway. So who cares if they have it? If you want organic focus, pull it manually or use a Canon.

I knew what you were talking about but AF compared to focus pulling is another topic. You don't throw out AF technology based on that. 

[Mattias Burling]

14 hours ago, Skip77 said:

You comments are not true. 

This is the last sentence I will ever read from you. Life is too short.

Lol, you even try to convince people that I've only tried AF on a Lumix camera, when it's pretty obvious I use Canon DPAF, instead of just accepting that some prefer MF. 

Im putting you on the ignore list now