Hey Nikon - Where's the Z6 ProRes RAW Update?

[Andrew Reid]

I'd like to give you an idea of what it's like being a Nikon mirrorless camera owner...

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[crazyrunner33]

The phrase over promise and under deliver exists for a reason. I've learned to take "future updates" as a grain of salt. Until it's being delivered, it might just be vaporware. And it's vaporware that can drive up stock prices temporarily for a small win. 

Examples:

• CANIKON Adapter 
• Android updates for Moto phones
• Half of the promises that Elon Musk makes

[Lars Steenhoff]

Most likely at IBC in September we will hear more about the raw update for the z6

I do hope Panasonic will also add Raw to the S1

[Video Hummus]

So how much latitude does ProRes Raw give you? I was under the impression white balance was still backed in. 

[Jonesy Jones]

Regarding the Red patented compressed raw problem. Could it be as simple as just not marketing it as raw? Instead calling it a “dynamic codec” or something. 

Would be interesting if @CaptainHook or someone with real world knowledge of this could chime in on what make compressed raw an infringement.

i bet the line is blurry. 

[gethin]

Nikon still do not understand video, and they don't want to.

I contacted Nikon Australia to point out that the auto mode had a minimum shutter speed equivalent to 360 degree shutter and no way to change it and they said: meh.  (And when I bring this up so many people blether on about shooting in manual mode and fail to imagine a circumstance where having a fixed aperture but smoothly variable shutter would be useful, so don't feel you need to waive your lack of imagination around now ?) . The fact it works like this is emblematic of Nikon's attitude to video: an annoying bolt-on they've been forced into and driven more by their marketing Dept than by their engineers. 

They can't imagine a time where stills will be the secondary function for photographers. A bit like Nokia before smartphones. 

[currensheldon]

Speaking of MIA, where are the CF Express-capable slots? Both Nikon and Panasonic mentioned their mirrorless cameras will be able to accept CF Express, giving them plenty of speed for internal raw, but still nothing. Tired of Sony XQD being the only (expensive) game in town. 

I have to imagine the Sony A7sIII and Panasonic S1H are going to have some big codecs up their sleeve. For Panasonic, maybe it is just the 6K and that's what they'll use their CFExpress slot for (not that an SD Card couldn't do it). But with Nikon announcing ProRes Raw and with plenty of manufacturers waiting to release their CFExpress cards (ProGrade, EgoDisk, Delkin, Sony...), I have a feeling Sony and Panasonic will soon announce mirrorless cameras that can do some form of internal raw or high-end codec. 

Just really hope it isn't ProRes Raw unless they start playing nice with Da Vinci and offer some lower levels of compression (8:1, 12:1, etc) for actually manageable file sizes. 

 

[Caleb Genheimer]

I’ve been sold now on Blackmagic’s new RAW since updating firmware on my Pocket 4K. It’s Just. So. Good. Smoother to edit than h.264 if I’m honest.

I’m not sure how ProRes RAW intends to survive. It has a huge legacy behind it, but banking on that would ignore an industry that is not precious with such notions. Atoms external recording has always been an odd duck in my mind. Either you’re on a shoot that can afford a true cinema camera, or you’re not. Why spend thousands on a monitor to “sort of” turn your hybrid camera into a slightly better version of itself just doesn’t make sense.

I also simply refuse to be saddled to a monitor for recording purposes. It essentially gets added to the price of the camera, IMO, and makes upgrading down the road extra painful. With available drive tech, NONE of this faffing about should be at all necessary. Between Blackmagic and Sigma, it looks like there might finally be other companies willing to call these bluffs. 

Sony and Panny are now so concerned with their 1V1 cat-and-mouse, that they’re CLEARLY pulling punches in case they need them later. If they keep it up, a third party is going to catch them out.

Blackmagic has a 4K Raw-To-SSD dual native ISO camera for essentially $1K. The Sigma fp looks like it MIGHT be a similar thing, but fullframe (probably with a price bump to match)... Sony and Panny need to pull their heads out of the sand and let out all the stops, or risk being overtaken by fresh blood.

The Nikon could absolutely kill if it recorded Raw internally in some form. 

Fullframe 4K Raw is obviously well within the technical abilities of a sub-$4K camera body, and I think that’s the looming frustration over all of these cameras. Nobody wants to be first for fear of immediately being one-upped. 

My money would be on Panasonic’s S1H as most likely contender, but the Sigma might firm up some hefty specs and take everyone by surprise. I was hoping on ZCam, but good gravy those price tags go WAY too high for what they are IMO.

Blackmagic SHOULD slap a hefty heatsink into a fullframe “BlackMagic FannypackCinemaCamera4K,” sell it for $2300, and take home everyone’s money... or join L-mount alliance with an olive branch of the BMRAW codec in-camera for all involved. Panny X BMRAW would likely cripple Sony, Nikon, Atmos and ProRes Raw in one fell swoop... leaving only Canon limping along on its dual pixel autofocus. Come on everyone else! If Samsung could match Canon’s AF tech several years ago, y’all can surely do it by 2020.

[The ghost of squig]

Maybe they hit a snag with the HDMI lag.

[thebrothersthre3]

3 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

So how much latitude does ProRes Raw give you? I was under the impression white balance was still backed in. 

Tested on the FS5 it seemed to give about a half stop more dynamic range than 8 bit recording. I think the bigger advantage is 12 bit over 8 or even 10. 

[Zeng]

When I asked Atomos about this at Cinegear in June, they pointed to a Z6 on their stand with Ninja V attached and showing "prores raw" in the corner of the screen. The guy told me "I don't know, it's ready and up to them when they release it". So it could be all sorts of things - like Andrew pointed out. I for one would hope it's just waiting for the competitors to announce their stuff first.

[Eno]

@Andrew Reid, some little observations:

The write speed on the Z6 on the card is 240 MB/sec max and not 500 MB/sec as you imply: https://www.cameramemoryspeed.com/nikon-z6/fastest-xqd-cards/

The Z6 camera is now listed at BH at $1,796.95 instead or the $1,996.95 original price: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431706-REG/nikon_1595_z6_mirrorless_digital_camera.html?sts=pi&pim=Y

I see no 30-40% reduction of the original price.

The lenses cost the same as on launch day:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431709-REG/nikon_20081_nikkor_z_35mm_f_1_8.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431708-REG/nikon_20072_nikkor_z_24_70mm_f_4.html

Nikon announced in April 4 2019 that we shall see eye AF in one firmware update (we got that in May) and the external RAW recording later in the year: https://www.nikonusa.com/en/about-nikon/press-room/press-release/jp1hlujr/Nikon-Brings-Powerful-Cinematic-Solutions-to-NAB®-2019-With-Z-Series-Cameras-and-MRMC-Broadcast-Automation-.html

That's just 3+ months ago (not 6 months as you have written); patience is a virtue.

[sanveer]

I am guessing there may be 2-3 explanations to this.

1. Nikon and Atomos have not arrived as the payment % share of the ProRes codec to be paid, and nobody wants to budge a milimetre. 

2. RED, the infamous rogue that files cases against everyone under the guise of protecting its imaginary patents on everything and everyone may be looking to sue one of these parties. So, there appear to be delays.

3. Both Nikon and Atomos overstated the capabilities of the RAW and that the pipeline probably doesn't support such high bitrates. 

[Mediapix]

Yes,  I am another not so happy Nikon Z6 owner..... when will the pro res raw update be alive? I bought the z6 together with a Ninja V.... month ago.
Yes another customer complaining in all the media about your promise....

[amanieux]

your hypothesis of sony putting pressure on nikon though sensor delivery to cancel raw video could makes sense. with the shrinkage of the camera market due to cameraphones that are good enough for 99% of the population needs, there will not be enough room for all existing  camera makers, nikon not being in the strongest position they should quickly deliver raw video if they want a chance to survive, same goes for fuji.

by the way, now that bmpcc4k you can buy today won't let you downgrade the firmware to get back cinemadng raw, what is the first price for a cinema camera that records real 4k raw (by real raw i mean uncompressed or lossless compressed raw) ? is it the canon c200+Atomos Shogun Flame for $5.1k ?

[amanieux]

what i don't get from nikon perspective is why raw over hdmi and not raw over usb3 it is computationally the same cost to serialize uncompressed raw over usb vs hdmi hack but you only need a $100 external ssd instead of a $700 external recorder. and by serialized raw i mean just that and no cinemadng codec, any software intern will make you a premiere plugin in 1 month that will import serial raw data.

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, Eno said:

The write speed on the Z6 on the card is 240 MB/sec max and not 500 MB/sec as you imply: https://www.cameramemoryspeed.com/nikon-z6/fastest-xqd-cards/

That benchmark is only testing continuous 14bit RAW stills write speed.

XQD can go higher than 240MB/s. Regardless, that rate is still fast enough for 4K RAW even without ProRes RAW's compression.

Z6 also now supports CFexpress media.

2 hours ago, Eno said:

The Z6 camera is now listed at BH at $1,796.95 instead or the $1,996.95 original price: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431706-REG/nikon_1595_z6_mirrorless_digital_camera.html?sts=pi&pim=Y

I'm going from my own experience not American market.

Regardless I see at B&H the Z7 body alone is now reduced by $646 which is a lot.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431737-REG/nikon_z7_mirrorless_digital_camera.html

I bought my Z6 for 2800 euros inc. 24-70mm. That's a terrible deal compared to what is now on offer in Europe and UK with all the Nikon marketing rebates and cash back.

Also from grey market stores you can now get the Z6 body only for £1400.

2 hours ago, Eno said:

I see no 30-40% reduction of the original price.

The lenses cost the same as on launch day:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431709-REG/nikon_20081_nikkor_z_35mm_f_1_8.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431708-REG/nikon_20072_nikkor_z_24_70mm_f_4.html

The 50mm F1.8 on Amazon in Germany was 369 last month, down from 699 euros.

2 hours ago, Eno said:

Nikon announced in April 4 2019 that we shall see eye AF in one firmware update (we got that in May) and the external RAW recording later in the year: https://www.nikonusa.com/en/about-nikon/press-room/press-release/jp1hlujr/Nikon-Brings-Powerful-Cinematic-Solutions-to-NAB®-2019-With-Z-Series-Cameras-and-MRMC-Broadcast-Automation-.html

This was just a press release to coincide with NAB in April. You picked that out, but missed all the earlier ones.

Atomos announcement of ProRes RAW with Z6 was made much earlier at CES

 

2 hours ago, Eno said:

That's just 3+ months ago (not 6 months as you have written); patience is a virtue.

January is 6 months ago.

Knowledge is a virtue.

[Trek of Joy]

One thing I don't get is the whole Crimson Cult suing anyone that dares tread on raw recording when there are a number of cinema cameras that record raw. They can patent Cult-Code as a proprietary format, but anyone using Prores or Braw would be free to run wild, much like the ARW, CR2, NEF and so on for stills. Unless I'm not seeing the whole picture in terms of what the Crimson Cult can actually do to stop anyone from using the above or Cdng.

I'd be frustrated if I owned the Z6 too, but these vague "coming at some point later this year" announcements have become the norm.

Chris

[ND64]

I remember Atomos CEO said August is more likely, but didn't promise any date.

I guess there are some problems with big events licenses.. in a football match, if you are a still shooter, you only have right to shoot still. With a still camera capable of raw video all around them, broadcast guys and their license holder companies will be mad. I hear they even see short burst of A9 20fps raw as a threat. 

[Anaconda_]

3 minutes ago, Eric Calabros said:

I guess there are some problems with big events licenses.. in a football match, if you are a still shooter, you only have right to shoot still. With a still camera capable of raw video all around them, broadcast guys and their license holder companies will be mad. I hear they even see short burst of A9 20fps raw as a threat. 

Shirley worrying about photographers shooting video has been a problem since the 5DII? I wouldn't have thought the difference between someone shooting h264 and RAW would make it any more of a concern.