Hey Nikon - Where's the Z6 ProRes RAW Update?

[gethin]

Now if we could only have 4k 60 I'd be as happy as a pig in shit

[Danyyyel]

45 minutes ago, gethin said:

No 14+stop on the z6.  The d800 supposedly has 13.something stops and the z6 does not reach the same levels of dr.  I get the feeling it could if they turned up the active d-lighting.  Anyhoo the blacks are way noisier than the d800, I'd guess 12 usable stops at most (which would still be awesome)

Since DxO has been the most consistent camera sensor benchmark and has got the z6 at 14.3 stop. Now there are other DR benchmark that goes stricker (Noise level) but then everyone goes down by those measure. If everyone has shot with the king of DR will know it has also has some noise. As a raw still shooter with a d800 and z6, I know that the z6 is very very high DR and has less that pinkish color in the shadows than older Nion bodies like the d750. In the end, the z6 and any other Nikon for the last 4-8 years, have a ton of DR, I mean a ton. I am was not a fan of shooting RAW, because of file size and the fact I am on PC and use Davinci. But this is warming on me, for specific job, it might warrant the size and inconvenience.       https://www.dxomark.com/nikon-z-6-sensor-review-targeted-performance/

 

[Django]

Actually the kings of DR is D850/A7RIV with 14.8 DR (DxO rating) followed by Z7 with 14.6 stops.

I know the Z6 has better low-light and no line-skipping but any idea how Z7 will fare with the RAW upgrade? I think I read it will only output it in DX/APS-C mode?

I still need a high-res OLPF-less hybrid in my arsenal, wondering if Z7 might be a worthy choice.

[Super8]

11 hours ago, gethin said:

No 14+stop on the z6.  The d800 supposedly has 13.something stops and the z6 does not reach the same levels of dr.  I get the feeling it could if they turned up the active d-lighting.  Anyhoo the blacks are way noisier than the d800, I'd guess 12 usable stops at most (which would still be awesome)

It would be nice to know if it's 14+ or just 12.   What does the eye test say?

[thebrothersthre3]

17 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

Yep, every Nikon (Sony Sensor) since the D800 have had 14+ stop of DR and now just magically they would go as low as 13 MAAAAAAAAAAAXXXXXXXXXX. If it was a Sony, I am sure it would be 15 stop 8 bit h2.64 glory.

Sony doesn't get 15 stops even in 14 bit RAW. Previous Nikon cameras had outstanding dynamic range in RAW 14 bit. The Z6 isn't as good as their DSLR's. Also the RAW output is 12 bit prores RAW, not the same as the RAW you get in stills. The FS5 can do prores RAW but only got like a half stop dynamic range difference compared to 8 bit H264. 

I'd guess the dynamic range will be similar to the Sigma FP's RAW as the sensors are probably similar. 

[Video Hummus]

Don't forget that Blackmagic has it's own line of new HDR recorders that can record both ProRes RAW and BRAW. It's very possible that Blackmagic:

1. Supports ProRes RAW in Resolve in the near future (as is Premiere Pro and Avid).

or

2. Comes out with support for BRAW for the Z6 on its new recorders via HDMI.

I'm not a hardware engineer but I'm assuming the RAW output to Atomos via HDMI is utilizing the ethernet capabilities of the HDMI 2.0 spec that allows 18Gbps bandwidth of data (any data). That is more bandwidth available than 12G SDI on the BM recorders for example (assuming relatively small packet overhead on the ethernet protocol using jumbo frames or super jumbo frames).

 

[Anaconda_]

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Don't forget that Blackmagic has it's own line of new HDR recorders that can record both ProRes RAW and BRAW

I don't think they do record ProRes RAW. 

[androidlad]

19 hours ago, Django said:

Actually the kings of DR is D850/A7RIV with 14.8 DR (DxO rating) followed by Z7 with 14.6 stops.

I know the Z6 has better low-light and no line-skipping but any idea how Z7 will fare with the RAW upgrade? I think I read it will only output it in DX/APS-C mode?

I still need a high-res OLPF-less hybrid in my arsenal, wondering if Z7 might be a worthy choice.

You have to look at “screen” DR, which reflects pixel level DR, instead of “print” that takes into account downscaling using DxO’s proprietary algorithm. 
 

So it’s actually 13.55EV for D850 and 13.45EV for Z6.

 

[gethin]

23 hours ago, Django said:

Actually the kings of DR is D850/A7RIV with 14.8 DR (DxO rating) followed by Z7 with 14.6 stops.

I know the Z6 has better low-light and no line-skipping but any idea how Z7 will fare with the RAW upgrade? I think I read it will only output it in DX/APS-C mode?

I still need a high-res OLPF-less hybrid in my arsenal, wondering if Z7 might be a worthy choice.

the quoted values are always pretty much bulshit.  My D5300 had virtually the same dynamic range as the d800 according to DXO.  The usable dynamic range was nowhere near the same. The z7 and z6 have banding in the shadows which means you cant push them as far, and on the z6 at least the noise is not as pleasant - so again you can't push it as far (and the lower MP doesn't help either).  Until we can get someone to do a controlled test with and without th 12 bit raw i reckon all this is a big fat waste of breath ? 
One thing I will say though is that sometimes I feel like the flat image on video almost retains better highlight detail than the raw still. Making me wonder if they deliberately hobbled the raw to create a bigger gap to the z7.  

[Danyyyel]

Some really nice highlight recovery in this video, I don't understand everything as I don't speak German.

 

 

[Video Hummus]

8 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

I don't think they do record ProRes RAW. 

Ah, for some reason I thought they supported ProRes RAW. Just ProRes.

[Mark Romero 2]

From watching a couple of different videos on the Z6 and ProRes RAW update, still seems like one has to ETTR about 1.5 to 2 stops... which means you do have a stronger chance of clipping highlights. So is it really going to give that much better real-world dynamic range than a Panasonic S1 / S1H, or even a BMD Pocket 4K???

[thebrothersthre3]

4 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

So is it really going to give that much better real-world dynamic range than a Panasonic S1 / S1H, or even a BMD Pocket 4K???

Yeah I doubt it. It will really be about the extra color information which should yield better skintones etc. I like the form factor of the Pocket cameras more and the 6k image quality is pretty unbeatable. That said you get the better low light performance and auto focus. Though you may not get auto focus with prores raw considering you can't with LOG?

[Super8]

13 hours ago, gethin said:

the quoted values are always pretty much bulshit.  My D5300 had virtually the same dynamic range as the d800 according to DXO.  The usable dynamic range was nowhere near the same. The z7 and z6 have banding in the shadows which means you cant push them as far, and on the z6 at least the noise is not as pleasant - so again you can't push it as far (and the lower MP doesn't help either).  Until we can get someone to do a controlled test with and without th 12 bit raw i reckon all this is a big fat waste of breath ? 
One thing I will say though is that sometimes I feel like the flat image on video almost retains better highlight detail than the raw still. Making me wonder if they deliberately hobbled the raw to create a bigger gap to the z7.  

The Z6's noise pattern is actual great and I've never seen banding in the shadows? I just tested Z6 4K footage.  Where are you getting your information?

[Zeng]

Looks very very good. And this given that a non-optimal path is used - footage converted to Sony log with LUTs intended for Sony cameras applied... Nlog support is said to be coming to FCP soon.

[Deadcode]

The 12 bit sensor readout (in video mode) and 12 bit output is determinating the maximum 12 stops of dynamic range.

As long as you are "grading with LUT's" the results will not differ from 8 bit recording.

[Zeng]

33 minutes ago, Deadcode said:

The 12 bit sensor readout (in video mode) and 12 bit output is determinating the maximum 12 stops of dynamic range.

As long as you are "grading with LUT's" the results will not differ from 8 bit recording.

Sorry, but if one doesn't see advantage/difference in using 12bit color then I guess one is better to keep using something like Sony A7III with its glorious 8bit log.

[Deadcode]

6 minutes ago, Zeng said:

Sorry, but if one doesn't see advantage/difference in using 12bit color then I guess one is better to keep using something like Sony A7III with its glorious 8bit log.

Fair enough response ?

But at least i know how to get the most ouf of my camera  RAW is way overrated, and mostly praised by people who shoot flower shots in the garden.

By the way here you can see a nice raw vs 8 bit h264

[thebrothersthre3]

3 hours ago, Deadcode said:

Fair enough response ?

But at least i know how to get the most ouf of my camera  RAW is way overrated, and mostly praised by people who shoot flower shots in the garden.

By the way here you can see a nice raw vs 8 bit h264

Different sensors of course so there could be more of a difference with the Z6. That said it won't be over a stop. Again I think its more the higher color depth that is important for some at least.

[Geoff CB]

3 hours ago, Deadcode said:

Fair enough response ?

But at least i know how to get the most ouf of my camera  RAW is way overrated, and mostly praised by people who shoot flower shots in the garden.

By the way here you can see a nice raw vs 8 bit h264

I hate that video. It does not take into account motion cadence or color, just DR and noise. Also if your delivery is a cinema screen or HDR deliver the higher bitrate and bit depth ALWAYS help.