Hey Nikon - Where's the Z6 ProRes RAW Update?

[Mark Romero 2]

I ain't no engineer, but...

Doesn't the Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) have the "final say" in the amount of Dynamic Range?

That's kind of been the knock against mirrorless cameras is that the codec / output will always be constrained by the ADC. 

Or am I just confused again??? (Happens quite often.)

Anyway, do any of the non-cinema cameras read both a high-gain and a low-gain signal from each pixel and then run through two different ADCs the way an Alexa does?

Because if it doesn't, I am not sure how much (theoretical) dynamic range boost there will be shooting with RAW on the Z6.

Maybe in the real world it will allow people to overexpose one more stop over what they could expose with N-Log and still pull back highlights, so maybe there is an advantage there (I am just pulling this one stop over figure from out of my hat just to make a point that there might be a real world benefit that isn't readily apparent from looking at the math - I have no idea if RAW will allow people to pull back the highlights better or not than N-Log).

Did I mention I am not an engineer???

[Video Hummus]

3 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

I hate that video. It does not take into account motion cadence or color, just DR and noise. Also if your delivery is a cinema screen or HDR deliver the higher bitrate and bit depth ALWAYS help. 

As long as the delivery is to 8-bit, Rec.709, low compression YouTube then it barely matters what you captured in.

Hopefully HDR video on the internet will become the new baseline when there are more affordable “real” HDR monitors and TVs in consumer hands.

At that point we will start to see the visual fidelity enhancements offered in RAW/HDR capture.

[Danyyyel]

6 hours ago, Deadcode said:

Fair enough response ?

But at least i know how to get the most ouf of my camera  RAW is way overrated, and mostly praised by people who shoot flower shots in the garden.

By the way here you can see a nice raw vs 8 bit h264

As a photographer who has shot raw for 15 years, you don't know what you are talking about. I have used mainly 12 bit because I remember the time when we were all talking about 12 vs 14 bit raw and the difference was microscopic. Since then thse type of things like people complaining about 4k or 6k etc are moot to me. There will always be a bunch of nerds who will discuss ad nauseam about the .1 % difference between X and Y.

[Trek of Joy]

A poster on the Dpreview Nikon forum says the z6 raw update took less than an hour At a Nikon service center. Doesn’t sound like a hardware upgrade if the turnaround time is that fast. The $200 sounds like a license fee. 
 

chris

[Mark Romero 2]

24 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

A poster on the Dpreview Nikon forum says the z6 raw update took less than an hour At a Nikon service center. Doesn’t sound like a hardware upgrade if the turnaround time is that fast. The $200 sounds like a license fee. 
 

chris

Yeah, I guess Nikon has a competition going on with Panasonic to see who can make the most cumbersome License purchase system.

[BTM_Pix]

32 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Yeah, I guess Nikon has a competition going on with Panasonic to see who can make the most cumbersome License purchase system.

I know who my money's on to come up with a way to beat them both though

[Deadcode]

2 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

As a photographer who has shot raw for 15 years, you don't know what you are talking about. I have used mainly 12 bit because I remember the time when we were all talking about 12 vs 14 bit raw and the difference was microscopic. Since then thse type of things like people complaining about 4k or 6k etc are moot to me. There will always be a bunch of nerds who will discuss ad nauseam about the .1 % difference between X and Y.

If you are experienced enough and have pro colorgrading skill in resolve, you may reach the limitations of the 10 bit LOG footage compared to RAW. 

I am talking about Premiere and FCPX users who are using LUT's to grade and call it a day.

Or Lumetri Color adjustements and calling yourself a colorist. You can barely reach the limitations of 8 bit log with these tools...

[Super8]

5 hours ago, Deadcode said:

If you are experienced enough and have pro colorgrading skill in resolve, you may reach the limitations of the 10 bit LOG footage compared to RAW. 

I am talking about Premiere and FCPX users who are using LUT's to grade and call it a day.

Or Lumetri Color adjustements and calling yourself a colorist. You can barely reach the limitations of 8 bit log with these tools...

That's not how 8bit vs 10bit works.  It's not a pro only quality difference.

[androidlad]

21 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

I ain't no engineer, but...

Doesn't the Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) have the "final say" in the amount of Dynamic Range?

That's kind of been the knock against mirrorless cameras is that the codec / output will always be constrained by the ADC. 

Or am I just confused again??? (Happens quite often.)

Anyway, do any of the non-cinema cameras read both a high-gain and a low-gain signal from each pixel and then run through two different ADCs the way an Alexa does?

Because if it doesn't, I am not sure how much (theoretical) dynamic range boost there will be shooting with RAW on the Z6.

Maybe in the real world it will allow people to overexpose one more stop over what they could expose with N-Log and still pull back highlights, so maybe there is an advantage there (I am just pulling this one stop over figure from out of my hat just to make a point that there might be a real world benefit that isn't readily apparent from looking at the math - I have no idea if RAW will allow people to pull back the highlights better or not than N-Log).

Did I mention I am not an engineer???

Other than ADC bitdepth, ISP can affect DR as well - by applying noise reduction.

Only ARRI cameras and BMD URSA 4.6K have dual ADC readout.

Some recent Sony Semicon sensors (571, 461, 455) do have dual ADC readout mode, called DOL-HDR, but it comes at the expense of twice the amount of rolling shutter, it's not implemented yet in any consumer cameras

[Mark Romero 2]

1 hour ago, androidlad said:

Other than ADC bitdepth, ISP can affect DR as well - by applying noise reduction.

Only ARRI cameras and BMD URSA 4.6K have dual ADC readout.

Some recent Sony Semicon sensors (571, 461, 455) do have dual ADC readout mode, called DOL-HDR, but it comes at the expense of twice the amount of rolling shutter, it's not implemented yet in any consumer cameras

Thank you for the explanation.

Can you clarify for me what "ISP" means though in the statement, "ISP can affect DR as well - by applying noise reduction," as I am unfamiliar with the term ISP.

I am sure it is something simple, just can't think of it right now. My grasp of the English language is tenuous at best since I am a product of the public education system in the USA.

[Danyyyel]

On 12/21/2019 at 8:33 PM, Mark Romero 2 said:

Thank you for the explanation.

Can you clarify for me what "ISP" means though in the statement, "ISP can affect DR as well - by applying noise reduction," as I am unfamiliar with the term ISP.

I am sure it is something simple, just can't think of it right now. My grasp of the English language is tenuous at best since I am a product of the public education system in the USA.

Nice video showing dynamic range capabilities of the Nikon z6 raw compared to flat and log. There is clearly a good gain in the highlight with RAW and it is quite impressive.

 

Nice

[KnightsFan]

On 12/21/2019 at 11:33 AM, Mark Romero 2 said:

Can you clarify for me what "ISP" means though in the statement, "ISP can affect DR as well - by applying noise reduction," as I am unfamiliar with the term ISP.

Image Signal Processor, basically just the processing of the image that the camera does. By applying noise reduction, an ISP lowers the noise floor and thus increases dynamic range, usually at the expense of resolution.

but yeah your original statement is correct:

On 12/20/2019 at 12:05 PM, Mark Romero 2 said:

I am not sure how much (theoretical) dynamic range boost there will be shooting with RAW on the Z6.

There is no inherent reason why raw would improve dynamic range on the same camera. If their log format already captures the entire dynamic range of the ADC, then Raw would likely bring no dynamic range improvements. We'd have to test in the real world to find out (like in the video above, which is in German unfortunately).

[Mark Romero 2]

3 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

Image Signal Processor, basically just the processing of the image that the camera does. By applying noise reduction, an ISP lowers the noise floor and thus increases dynamic range, usually at the expense of resolution.

but yeah your original statement is correct:

There is no inherent reason why raw would improve dynamic range on the same camera. If their log format already captures the entire dynamic range of the ADC, then Raw would likely bring no dynamic range improvements. We'd have to test in the real world to find out (like in the video above, which is in German unfortunately).

Thanks so much for the explanation and the clarification. 

[Super8]

9 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

Image Signal Processor, basically just the processing of the image that the camera does. By applying noise reduction, an ISP lowers the noise floor and thus increases dynamic range, usually at the expense of resolution.

but yeah your original statement is correct:

There is no inherent reason why raw would improve dynamic range on the same camera. If their log format already captures the entire dynamic range of the ADC, then Raw would likely bring no dynamic range improvements. We'd have to test in the real world to find out (like in the video above, which is in German unfortunately).

Take a look at the video above your post.

[KnightsFan]

16 minutes ago, Super8 said:

Take a look at the video above your post.

I mentioned the video in my post. It's too long for me to watch without understanding the language, I was more answering the general question of whether cameras were ADC limited.

[Video Hummus]

On 12/21/2019 at 9:58 AM, androidlad said:

Other than ADC bitdepth, ISP can affect DR as well - by applying noise reduction.

So, I’ve always kinda wondered in the back of my mind...based on the spec sheet for the IMX299CJK (GH5S sensor). It says it offers 10/12/14-bit ADC output and of course I take 14-bit raw photos with it. It lists 14-bit video outputs.

Why does the GH5S seem to have the same dynamic range as a GH5? Purely ISP limited?

I’m still hoping maybe we get ProRes RAW on the GH5S. 

[androidlad]

7 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

So, I’ve always kinda wondered in the back of my mind...based on the spec sheet for the IMX299CJK (GH5S sensor). It says it offers 10/12/14-bit ADC output and of course I take 14-bit raw photos with it. It lists 14-bit video outputs.

Why does the GH5S seem to have the same dynamic range as a GH5? Purely ISP limited?

I’m still hoping maybe we get ProRes RAW on the GH5S. 

None of the current Sony sensors are capable of 14bit ADC readout for 4K at video framerates. Plus, higher ADC bitdepth comes with higher power consumption.

GH5S has full one stop DR advantage over GH5:

[Video Hummus]

53 minutes ago, androidlad said:

None of the current Sony sensors are capable of 14bit ADC readout for 4K at video framerates. Plus, higher ADC bitdepth comes with higher power consumption.

GH5S has full one stop DR advantage over GH5:

Ok, so what does the following actually (hi lighted in red) mean in the spec sheet. Thanks for the help in understanding these tech sheets. What do you look at that specifically on these PDFs to get an idea. With my limited knowledge it appears like it does offer 14-bit output in video modes at useable FPS.

Also, for the eagle eyed, I didn’t realize I captured my last minute Christmas purchase from B&H. Lol. Peak design capture clip V3, yay!

[androidlad]

5 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

Ok, so what does the following actually (hi lighted in red) mean in the spec sheet. Thanks for the help in understanding these tech sheets. What do you look at that specifically on these PDFs to get an idea. With my limited knowledge it appears like it does offer 14-bit output in video modes at useable FPS.

Also, for the eagle eyed, I didn’t realize I captured my last minute Christmas purchase from B&H. Lol. Peak design capture clip V3, yay!

 

It means what it says, 14bit readout for 2048 x 1080. Zcam used the 10bit readout mode for 240fps.

[Video Hummus]

13 minutes ago, androidlad said:

It means what it says, 14bit readout for 2048 x 1080. Zcam used the 10bit readout mode for 240fps.

So, I can infer the GH5S is capable approaching 14 stops of dynamic range in a FHD 1:1 pixel recording mode? I guess because they chose to oversample in FHD and so are limited to the 12-bit output. Ol, makes sense. Thanks!