Sony - the new Canon!

[Skip77]

On 7/27/2019 at 12:46 PM, Media Kat said:

No doubt regarding Youtube being an advertising platform...but the point I made earlier, aren't these same influencers also paid or flown all over the world when Canon, Nikon and Panasonic release new cameras? 

The difference is Canon and Nikon and Panasonic influencers are not negative and dishonest about other brands. Sony influencers do reviews about Nikon and Canon and Panasonic and they flat out lie about these brands. Flat out. And it's on You Tube for all to see. The compared the Z6 and S1 to the A7III and they lie even when the results on screen show the S1 and Z6 are better then the A7III.

[Mokara]

8 hours ago, Media Kat said:

What reasons would Sony have for limiting this? Limitations based on the size of the bodies? Trying to sell some other video camera that has all these features? Just stupid design?

The reason is that those specs are determined in hardware, specifically by the ISP used in the Bionz X processor. They have not upgraded that since about 2014, that is why specs have not upgraded. There is no mystery here. They can't "just do it", and they are not "holding stuff back". Magic does not exist in the real world, waving wands and doing wishful thinking will not make stuff that is not there magically appear.

That will be the case until they introduce a new processor with an upgraded ISP. Basically a redesign of the entire processor. That is not realistic in the camera industry on a regular basis because they don't sell enough units to be constantly redesigning the processor like Intel or AMD do, and that is the only way specs will go up. That is why Sony specs have "stagnated" for so many years. It is the exact same reason why Canon took so long to implement hardware 4K in consumer cameras. In their case the processors they had eventually were capable of doing 4K, but not without active cooling, which was not practical on a stills camera. Hence no 4K for the longest while. But they were not "holding tech back" or "being conservative", they simply could not do it with the processors at the time.

You are not going to see an improvement in video specs until they introduce a new processor. That may happen with the a9II and a7SIII, perhaps even the rumored a7000 (although I am dubious about that particular one's chances). In fact, this may well be the reason for the delay in introducing the a7SIII, namely that the processor was not quite ready yet and they did not want to release the camera with the lower specs that their current cameras have.

[Skip77]

1 hour ago, Mokara said:

The reason is that those specs are determined in hardware, specifically by the ISP used in the Bionz X processor. They have not upgraded that since about 2014, that is why specs have not upgraded. There is no mystery here. They can't "just do it", and they are not "holding stuff back". Magic does not exist in the real world, waving wands and doing wishful thinking will not make stuff that is not there magically appear.

That will be the case until they introduce a new processor with an upgraded ISP. Basically a redesign of the entire processor. That is not realistic in the camera industry on a regular basis because they don't sell enough units to be constantly redesigning the processor like Intel or AMD do, and that is the only way specs will go up. That is why Sony specs have "stagnated" for so many years. It is the exact same reason why Canon took so long to implement hardware 4K in consumer cameras. In their case the processors they had eventually were capable of doing 4K, but not without active cooling, which was not practical on a stills camera. Hence no 4K for the longest while. But they were not "holding tech back" or "being conservative", they simply could not do it with the processors at the time.

You are not going to see an improvement in video specs until they introduce a new processor. That may happen with the a9II and a7SIII, perhaps even the rumored a7000 (although I am dubious about that particular one's chances). In fact, this may well be the reason for the delay in introducing the a7SIII, namely that the processor was not quite ready yet and they did not want to release the camera with the lower specs that their current cameras have.

Nikon introduced a new processor with the Z6 and Panasonic with the S1.

You don't think Sony can create and release a new processor since 2014? That's 5 1/2 years. In camera time that an incredible amount of time. 

Sony has it's cine line to learn from and I'm not buying what your selling. Sony has the resources to produce a new processor since 2014 and they knew the day would come. The S1, Z6 have pushed video quality and specs beyond what Sony currently offers. By the time Sony does update the processor and specs the S2 and next Z video geared cameras will be released. 

It's not as hard as you described to create and release new processors. In fact I would say Sony already has built the next two processors they would use but are reluctant to change body size and style. 

It's simple: Sony had a road map that kept the current A7III style body and hardware on the market thru 2020-21 and that's why they got caught sleeping.  Sony also said they didn't want to make the A7 line up into a bigger body style when they had overheating issues. They basically said this is mirrorless and not DSLR. 

[Avenger 2.0]

23 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

You don't think Sony can create and release a new processor since 2014? That's 5 1/2 years. In camera time that an incredible amount of time. 

Indeed. Even Canon did release 2 new Digic Processors since 2014 (digic 7 in 2016 and digic 8 in 2018)

[Media Kat]

18 hours ago, Shell64 said:

Either heat issues or trying not to cannibalize fs5 sales. They really are being like canon in every way, except their color science lol

Would someone looking to buy an fs5 be interested in one of the A7X models though? I do not know anything about the fs5, just assuming it is intended as a dedicated video cam.

[Elias]

Here's one more thing that's needed: Depth Information.

It amazes me that I get depth information from an iPhone but can't get it from my $3,000-dollar DSLR or Mirrorless cameras.

Camera manufacturers in general should get on the depth-information bandwagon because it simply is *very* useful and something that cellphones are getting very good at.

From a photographer's perspective it allows us to re-light a photo *after* it has been captured, which I use creatively to great effect on my iPhone.

And from a cinematographer's perspective it can aid on doing green-screen effects *without* a green screen.

Computational photography can be very useful in the DSLR/Mirrorless market, but it seems that camera manufacturers are lacking people with vision on where to drive the industry forward.

And btw, I actually have done a couple of jobs using my iPhone which I'd rather have done otherwise on my large camera bodies with larger sensors, which is a great example of why cellphones are eating away slowly on camera sales. The camera manufacturer dinosaurs have to wake up or die.

[Shell64]

Depth information would be sweet. You could put a versatile but slow zoom lens on for cheap and use the depth information to simulate f 1.4 dof. I would love this

[Skip77]

2 hours ago, Elias said:

Here's one more thing that's needed: Depth Information.

It amazes me that I get depth information from an iPhone but can't get it from my $3,000-dollar DSLR or Mirrorless cameras.

Camera manufacturers in general should get on the depth-information bandwagon because it simply is *very* useful and something that cellphones are getting very good at.

From a photographer's perspective it allows us to re-light a photo *after* it has been captured, which I use creatively to great effect on my iPhone.

And from a cinematographer's perspective it can aid on doing green-screen effects *without* a green screen.

Computational photography can be very useful in the DSLR/Mirrorless market, but it seems that camera manufacturers are lacking people with vision on where to drive the industry forward.

And btw, I actually have done a couple of jobs using my iPhone which I'd rather have done otherwise on my large camera bodies with larger sensors, which is a great example of why cellphones are eating away slowly on camera sales. The camera manufacturer dinosaurs have to wake up or die.

iPhone has to talk about processor power. Cameras talk about sensor size. The life cycle to market is also different. 

Camera makers are changing with firmware updates and getting more from a camera instead of just bringing out a new model.

The original processor comment that was made was not correct about Sony.

[webrunner5]

51 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

iPhone has to talk about processor power. Cameras talk about sensor size. The life cycle to market is also different. 

Camera makers are changing with firmware updates and getting more from a camera instead of just bringing out a new model.

 

Phones, especially Apple phones get updates hell nearly every 2 weeks. You don't think they don't improve things, add new features with the updates? Only "real"cameras cameras do? And I think camera manufacturers Had better bring out new models every year now or they are toast. Stuff changes big time now in a year.

[Mokara]

12 hours ago, Skip77 said:

Nikon introduced a new processor with the Z6 and Panasonic with the S1.

You don't think Sony can create and release a new processor since 2014? That's 5 1/2 years. In camera time that an incredible amount of time. 

Sony has it's cine line to learn from and I'm not buying what your selling. Sony has the resources to produce a new processor since 2014 and they knew the day would come. The S1, Z6 have pushed video quality and specs beyond what Sony currently offers. By the time Sony does update the processor and specs the S2 and next Z video geared cameras will be released. 

It's not as hard as you described to create and release new processors. In fact I would say Sony already has built the next two processors they would use but are reluctant to change body size and style. 

It's simple: Sony had a road map that kept the current A7III style body and hardware on the market thru 2020-21 and that's why they got caught sleeping.  Sony also said they didn't want to make the A7 line up into a bigger body style when they had overheating issues. They basically said this is mirrorless and not DSLR. 

Sony have a lot of processors like that as well, the only difference is that they keep the same name for them while Canon and Nikon add numbers for each new variant. The Digic 7 and 8 are not all that different, the main difference between them and earlier Digic processors was the inclusion of 4K capability in the ISP (which would have required a redesign, likely by whoever their vendor is). 4K was not included in the cameras with Digic 7 because the ISP ran too hot without active cooling, so 4K was limited the Digic DV5 (the video camera version of Digic 7). Digic 8 had a restricted version of the ISP to manage the heat output, that allowed it to be used in stills cameras. Btw, this is why the C200 has RAW and a consumer codec (it uses the Digic DV6 processor, which is the video analog of Digic 8 , rather the pro codec used in the earlier DV5 cameras.

All of these processors are systems on a chip. Usually they have one or more ARM cores as the actual processor, with one or more image signal processors to handle what is coming off the sensor. Sony have a lot of variants of Bionz X, all with a quad core ARM Cortex A5 together with one or more CXD4236-1GG image signal processors, together with some other logic. They don't give the variants different names like Canon does, but Canon does the same thing. So you will see most Sony cameras since about 2014 using Bionz X processors, but these processors are not all the same. The CXD4236-1GG is Sony's third ISP, and they are due for another one since it is old and showing that age. My guess is that this will happen with the a9II and/or a7SIII. Delays in getting the new ISP ready have likely led to delays in these cameras as well, since Sony wants their flagships to have competitive video included, especially the a7SIII. Body size and shape has nothing to do with it. Nor does "deliberate crippling" and "holding back". The tech they have available at the moment simply can't do what you want.

Developing an ISP from scratch takes a lot of time and resources, which is why most camera companies license the designs from third parties and include them in their processor. For a limited product market like the one Sony has for cameras, this can't be done all that often, not without drastically increasing the price of their cameras. Canon don't do it, Nikon don't do and Sony does not do it. The only companies that have the resources and manpower to do this on routine basis are the ones that produce cell phone processors, such as Qualcomm and Samsung (which is why it really sucked for us when Samsung left the camera business). That is where you will see the cutting edge video performance, but those processors are designed to support cell phones, not conventional cameras.

18 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Phones, especially Apple phones get updates hell nearly every 2 weeks. You don't think they don't improve things, add new features with the updates? Only "real"cameras cameras do? And I think camera manufacturers Had better bring out new models every year now or they are toast. Stuff changes big time now in a year.

That is because modern cameras and cellphones are computers. Cellphones can get technology updates rapidly because they have the volume to fund that development. Cameras on the other hand do not. So you will always see cameras lagging behind cellphones when it comes to computational capability. But eventually it trickles down, and then the inherent superiority of proper cameras means that they produce better images. This is not likely to change. It is just that electronic cutting edge in cameras will be one step behind cellphones.

[Kisaha]

@Mokara +1+1 for the Samsung comment! What NX1 and NX500 did in 2015 and 2016 with no overheating and recording straight for 73min was science fiction.

The camera and its construction was a masterpiece of engineering. So clean internal design and nicely constructed with their first try..

I still remember the special press crusifing the NX500 for the 4K crop, while it took the rest of the industry a few years to catch up, and some still haven't. It was a 799€ (kit with a PZ lens) camera in 2016! Such an incredible deal..(I got the DE version with extra batteries and charger for the same money).

[Skip77]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Phones, especially Apple phones get updates hell nearly every 2 weeks. You don't think they don't improve things, add new features with the updates? Only "real"cameras cameras do? And I think camera manufacturers Had better bring out new models every year now or they are toast. Stuff changes big time now in a year.

I never said iPhone and smartphones don't make improvements or add new features. I never said either thing.

[Skip77]

2 hours ago, Mokara said:

Delays in getting the new ISP ready have likely led to delays in these cameras as well, since Sony wants their flagships to have competitive video included, especially the a7SIII. Body size and shape has nothing to do with it. Nor does "deliberate crippling" and "holding back". The tech they have available at the moment simply can't do what you want.

 

You are 100% wrong. "have likely led to delays" is a sly way of making people read your opinion as fact.

Nikon and Panasonic have pushed video capabilities on the Z6 and S1 way above what Sony has given us.  Body size for the Sony has to change because of past heat issues.  If Nikon and Panasonic can give us new better cameras then no excuses for Sony.  

Sony making processors years and years before they hit the streets is what big companies like Sony do. Sony's cine line up would also benefit from smaller faster processors. Panasonic said the S1 had been in development for years and the idea and move toward full frame was like 6 years ago. 

No one really knows what Sony delayed the A7SIII but at least to the public it's delayed or long over due.  I'm even very curious about what the A7SIII will be and how far they will push it.

If what you say was true then the A7SIII might be 4 months away or 2 years away from hitting the streets. That's not how it works. 

Sony know how to make great cine cameras and processors, they just have to decide what to please and how to make it in a smaller form factor. 

How long before the P4K was released did the first announcement happen? 

[Video Hummus]

17 hours ago, Mokara said:

The reason is that those specs are determined in hardware, specifically by the ISP used in the Bionz X processor. They have not upgraded that since about 2014, that is why specs have not upgraded. There is no mystery here. They can't "just do it", and they are not "holding stuff back". Magic does not exist in the real world, waving wands and doing wishful thinking will not make stuff that is not there magically appear.

That will be the case until they introduce a new processor with an upgraded ISP. Basically a redesign of the entire processor. That is not realistic in the camera industry on a regular basis because they don't sell enough units to be constantly redesigning the processor like Intel or AMD do, and that is the only way specs will go up. That is why Sony specs have "stagnated" for so many years. It is the exact same reason why Canon took so long to implement hardware 4K in consumer cameras. In their case the processors they had eventually were capable of doing 4K, but not without active cooling, which was not practical on a stills camera. Hence no 4K for the longest while. But they were not "holding tech back" or "being conservative", they simply could not do it with the processors at the time.

You are not going to see an improvement in video specs until they introduce a new processor. That may happen with the a9II and a7SIII, perhaps even the rumored a7000 (although I am dubious about that particular one's chances). In fact, this may well be the reason for the delay in introducing the a7SIII, namely that the processor was not quite ready yet and they did not want to release the camera with the lower specs that their current cameras have.

All the modern Sony models have a quad-core ARM Cortex-A5 plus custom Sony ISP inside of them. They farm their printing to Global Foundry (among others) which are leading the pack with 7nm node production. It's not like they are doubling the resolution of cameras every year. I am sure they can design custom ISPs that are over built and can process 8K+ video streams with low latency and low TDP thermals.

Phones can manage to do it, plus a lot more. Why not the camera manufacturers?

[Mokara]

21 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

All the modern Sony models have a quad-core ARM Cortex-A5 plus custom Sony ISP inside of them. They farm their printing to Global Foundry (among others) which are leading the pack with 7nm node production. It's not like they are doubling the resolution of cameras every year. I am sure they can design custom ISPs that are over built and can process 8K+ video streams with low latency and low TDP thermals.

Phones can manage to do it, plus a lot more. Why not the camera manufacturers?

Cell phones use variable frame rates to do it, as well as other compromises. That would not be acceptable on a proper camera. Comparing them is apples to potatoes. Cellphone processor development, especially the ISP portion, is funded by the sales volume those items have. Proper cameras have nowhere close to the same sales volume, so it is far more onerous to make the sort of investment necessary for constant improvement.

Sure, you could make a camera that had a cellphone processor in it, but it would shoot cell phone video, and I am pretty sure that almost everyone here would be screaming outrage if a camera did that.

22 hours ago, Skip77 said:

You are 100% wrong. "have likely led to delays" is a sly way of making people read your opinion as fact.

Nikon and Panasonic have pushed video capabilities on the Z6 and S1 way above what Sony has given us.  Body size for the Sony has to change because of past heat issues.  If Nikon and Panasonic can give us new better cameras then no excuses for Sony.  

Sony making processors years and years before they hit the streets is what big companies like Sony do. Sony's cine line up would also benefit from smaller faster processors. Panasonic said the S1 had been in development for years and the idea and move toward full frame was like 6 years ago. 

No one really knows what Sony delayed the A7SIII but at least to the public it's delayed or long over due.  I'm even very curious about what the A7SIII will be and how far they will push it.

If what you say was true then the A7SIII might be 4 months away or 2 years away from hitting the streets. That's not how it works. 

Sony know how to make great cine cameras and processors, they just have to decide what to please and how to make it in a smaller form factor. 

How long before the P4K was released did the first announcement happen? 

The delay is due to the need for higher specs, such as 4K60p, and the inability of the current Bionz X to deliver that in a hybrid body. They needed to wait because the existence of Panasonic's latest cameras with their 4K60p specs meant that the a7SIII would not be competitive if it did not have that spec, since it's selling point is that it is a video centric camera. They have to have specs that at a minimum match Panasonic or the camera will be a commercial failure.

Not rocket science dude.

[Skip77]

3 hours ago, Mokara said:

Cell phones use variable frame rates to do it, as well as other compromises. That would not be acceptable on a proper camera. Comparing them is apples to potatoes. Cellphone processor development, especially the ISP portion, is funded by the sales volume those items have. Proper cameras have nowhere close to the same sales volume, so it is far more onerous to make the sort of investment necessary for constant improvement.

Sure, you could make a camera that had a cellphone processor in it, but it would shoot cell phone video, and I am pretty sure that almost everyone here would be screaming outrage if a camera did that.

The delay is due to the need for higher specs, such as 4K60p, and the inability of the current Bionz X to deliver that in a hybrid body. They needed to wait because the existence of Panasonic's latest cameras with their 4K60p specs meant that the a7SIII would not be competitive if it did not have that spec, since it's selling point is that it is a video centric camera. They have to have specs that at a minimum match Panasonic or the camera will be a commercial failure.

Not rocket science dude.

You keep saying it's the processor but it's more then that. Nikon and Panasonic upped the video game with 10 bit external and internal and this is an issue with Sony's body style and small form factor and overheating. 

Sony could go with internal or external 10 bit and if they could do either no one would be upset if 4K60 wasn't part of the A7SIII.  it's called getting into the game. So the processor is one part of the story and what Panasonic and Nikon did is the other.

And both Nikon and Panasonic are rumored to have the same sensor as the A7III, at least the Z6 is. So given that information it only make Sony look bad for not being to deliver. Remember you said all the other companies don't just design their own processors and that it takes years.

You really need to say you work for Sony or that your just taking wild guesses at what they delays are with Sony.  

You have commented that body size of the A7SIII is not the issue so that means you think it's going to be the same size as the current A7III. Sony cameras still have overheating issues that no one else has.

Everyone on here has said Sony has to have specs that match Panasonics but you. Sony won't match Panasonic because they have better AF. 

3 hours ago, Mokara said:

Sure, you could make a camera that had a cellphone processor in it, but it would shoot cell phone video, and I am pretty sure that almost everyone here would be screaming outrage if a camera did that.

 

Dude you don't know what your talking about. Video Hummus know 100x more then the three books you posted.