Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge 64%

[PolarStarArts]

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

The funny thing is that people here still believe that consumers are buying whatever Canon throwing at them.

Maybe 5 years ago when hordes of amateurs were buying cameras, but now the customers are more informed, better image educated and the competition much harder.

The Canon line up right now seems like the shop from Friday the 13th, every camera a terrifying story..

I recently bought a Canon EOS M6. The only reason why I bought it is that the lenses that I bought with it, namely the 11-22 EF-M and 18-150 EF-M, are about half of the price of competing Sony E-mount lenses with similar focal lengths. And perform at least as well as the Sony lenses, if not better.

[The ghost of squig]

If Canon wants to get back into the game it has to up its video spec, duh... but it won't. Photographers are shooting video more and more. Pro photographers shoot raw, so it's just common sense to introduce internal raw video. Chances are Sony will beat Canon to it with the A7SIII, Sigma is already doing it with the FP. If the EOS R shot APS-C 4K lossless raw with <15ms rolling shutter it would've been huge.

 

[webrunner5]

If Canon would Just have FF 4K in the EOS-R, and DPAF in the M50 in 4K they would take back tons of shooters. Heck I would buy a M50 tomorrow if they did. I am in the market sad to say. It isn't rocket science. Well maybe to Canon it is. ☹️

[Mattias Burling]

Imagine the crisis at the competitors that barley was profitable before (except Leica of course, who always done very well).

[webrunner5]

You live in a dream world with Canon. Sony is worth more than twice as much as Canon, and has a P/E ratio of half what Canon is. Sony is making money, Canon is loosing.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&tbm=fin&q=NYSE:+SNE&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgecRoyi3w8sc9YSmdSWtOXmNU4-IKzsgvd80rySypFJLgYoOy-KR4uLj0c_UNknOSkgxyeRaxcvpFBrtaKQT7uQIADvG85EYAAAA&biw=1493&bih=877#scso=_XDI9XeeMF86P9PwPzK-v4Ak8:0

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&tbm=fin&q=NYSE:+CAJ&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgecRoyi3w8sc9YSmdSWtOXmNU4-IKzsgvd80rySypFJLgYoOy-KR4uLj0c_UNDCsqDYzzeBaxcvpFBrtaKTg7egEALyZ2YEYAAAA&biw=1493&bih=877#scso=_9C89XZWpDYzWtQagrZqAAg8:0

Look at last year to this year. A lot of Red on Canons part. They had better wise up or their Goose is Cooked. Investors are not too fond of that outlook. Hardly a buy stock.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&tbm=fin&q=NYSE:+SNE&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgecRoyi3w8sc9YSmdSWtOXmNU4-IKzsgvd80rySypFJLgYoOy-KR4uLj0c_UNknOSkgxyeRaxcvpFBrtaKQT7uQIADvG85EYAAAA&biw=1493&bih=877#scso=_XDI9XeeMF86P9PwPzK-v4Ak8:0,_FTQ9XfeGDNuqtQb837rIBQ8:0&wptab=COMPANY

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&tbm=fin&q=NYSE:+CAJ&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgecRoyi3w8sc9YSmdSWtOXmNU4-IKzsgvd80rySypFJLgYoOy-KR4uLj0c_UNDCsqDYzzeBaxcvpFBrtaKTg7egEALyZ2YEYAAAA&biw=1493&bih=877#scso=_9C89XZWpDYzWtQagrZqAAg8:0,_ZjQ9XYPaEcXctQbc-qygBg8:0&wptab=COMPANY

 

[Mattias Burling]

Just because you don't understand my point doesn't mean that others live in a dream world. Sony has lost so much money on their camera business over the last year's that it's gonna take a long time to recover.

You are talking about Sony as a whole and yes they make a lot of money. So do Panasonic. But it's not from cameras. Same with Fuji whos reports show its basically Instax film making the money in the photo segment, not the XT3.

But we have been down this boring road before where we argue about the same thing. A few talk about camera sales and others about cameras + water heaters. The numbers don't add up and instead of communication it's attacks and baiting. Then someone calls me an idiot and you explain that you are old and therefore right by default

So I will end it there.

All I say is read the financial reports and be critical. They to are written for marketing reasons. Don't just eat the propaganda. Ask why cameras are lumped with TVs in one company but separated at others? Ask why Sony lumps it with video cameras etc? Ask why some put them under "other"? And ask if you think they would show huge profits from a segment if they could, would share holders care?

[Robert Collins]

Camera companies have an enormous capacity for pain. Olympus's camera division last made a profit in 2009. BTW, Leica was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2004.

I rather suspect that Sony sees its losses in cameras as a marketing expense for its sensors....

[plucas]

Pro photographers might switch from the 1DXii if the Mark 3 features IBIS.

[Kisaha]

5 hours ago, PolarStarArts said:

I recently bought a Canon EOS M6. The only reason why I bought it is that the lenses that I bought with it, namely the 11-22 EF-M and 18-150 EF-M, are about half of the price of competing Sony E-mount lenses with similar focal lengths. And perform at least as well as the Sony lenses, if not better.

The Eos M is a very good entry level system. It is the one I suggest to most amateurs that ask me for a cheap little system.

These people ask for the kit lens, a nice pancake (22mm 2f), and some prefer ultra wide (11-22mm) or tele (55-200).

The issues are: sample variation, quite evidently these lenses are not made by EF standards. The system doesn't go anywhere it seems. No pro body or lenses.

I would love to see a cheap-ish XC camera with the Eos M mount back in the day...

[User]

3 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

and you explain that you are old and therefore right by default

And not just old... but seasoned
 

 

[Andrew Reid]

It's the camera industry's "climate emergency" moment. Unless they take radical action and quick, they're going to sink under the murky water.

Sony's earnings are due on 30th July, so keep an eye on this page for those - https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/

Also good reading, is Fuji's CEO and his book Innovating out of a Crisis - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Innovating-Out-Crisis-Fujifilm-Vanishing-ebook/dp/B00OFK46V0/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Fujifilm+crisis&qid=1564310458&s=gateway&sr=8-1

This shows how the company diversified after the film camera era responsible for 60% of their income vanished over night.

They got back on track in digital and have done very well.

Very ironic that now one of their most successful and profitable lines is instant FILM!

The crux of the matter is that digital technology killed the film market and now the tech sector is doing the same to dedicated, stand-alone digital devices.

The tech sector doesn't just make money selling hardware, like smartphones... It's the apps and online services which are so important. The Japanese companies have so far failed to appreciate this. Blackmagic at least gets it - selling a camera to further uptake of Resolve and their other products.

Most of the eco-system around cameras wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for Chinese companies.

The software side is largely ignored by Canon and Nikon especially. Canon should, for example, have bought Adobe a LONG time ago. Look how profitable they are now, with their evil subscription model.

Look how poor PlayMemories was by Sony. They do not have the staff.

Sony at least did enter the smartphone market, but aren't doing that well. No real USP or imagination. Just solid, well specced phones is not enough.

At least TWO of the dedicated camera manufacturers should also have entered the smartphone market in a big way, but they only so much as dipped their toes in the water and fussed around with wifi.

So what do they DO ABOUT IT now?? The ship has sailed. All consumers now have incredibly powerful computational imaging devices, connected services and software in their pocket. Camera makers must now look to how the market might evolve in 20 years with A.I. The work on the next gen processors must be done by Canon / Nikon / Fuji / Panasonic / Sony and not only by Apple or Samsung. We are talking cloud based, deep learning, mega-chips, able to apply artificial digital lighting in real-time, able to sense depth and build a 3D map of the entire scene in real-time, able to apply any lens focal length and depth of field convincingly without errors, able to perform with a small sensor in low light from an incredibly thin wafer of semiconductors in the pocket... And bring all that technology to the screen and consumer in an imaginative and beautiful way.

It's a big ask when Canon can't even get rid of the crop in 4K

Personally I think they are doomed in consumer market and we may even sadly lose Olympus and Rioch completely.

[webrunner5]

5 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

Camera companies have an enormous capacity for pain. Olympus's camera division last made a profit in 2009. BTW, Leica was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2004.

I rather suspect that Sony sees its losses in cameras as a marketing expense for its sensors....

That is because the Japaneses government props them up just like China does for company's. Olympus would have been out of business 10 years ago if they had to stand on their own two feet. Trouble is Japan it's self is not in that good of shape either.

Nuclear Power plant blowing up, Earthquakes, Tsunamis, Global Economy, and through the roof Labor wages have just about done in Japan.

[webrunner5]

5 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Just because you don't understand my point doesn't mean that others live in a dream world. Sony has lost so much money on their camera business over the last year's that it's gonna take a long time to recover.

 

Your crazy as hell. Sony OWNS the Broadcast industry. This A7 stuff is just peanuts to them. Bragging rights. And guess what, they have damn near buried Canon and Nikon. They probably make more money off of just the Sensor business than Canon makes on everything as of late.

[Robert Collins]

18 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

That is because the Japaneses government props them up just like China does for company's. Olympus would have been out of business 10 years ago if they had to stand on their own two feet. Trouble is Japan it's self is not in that good of shape either.

It was actually Sony who bailed out Olympus after the Yakuza blew a hole in their balance sheet (go figure).

But realistically, these companies stay in the camera business because it is relatively sexy - or far more sexy at least than endoscopes (Olympus), photocopiers (Ricoh), image sensors (Sony) and microwaves (Panasonic) or however they make their money....

One would have thought that the market is ripe for a new company (DJI?) to come in and disrupt the market (like say Godox in lighting) but maybe the market is too small or consumers too entrenched in their systems to change.

[webrunner5]

4 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

It was actually Sony who bailed out Olympus after the Yakuza blew a hole in their balance sheet (go figure).

But realistically, these companies stay in the camera business because it is relatively sexy - or far more sexy at least than endoscopes (Olympus), photocopiers (Ricoh), image sensors (Sony) and microwaves (Panasonic) or however they make their money....

One would have thought that the market is ripe for a new company (DJI?) to come in and disrupt the market (like say Godox in lighting) but maybe the market is too small or consumers too entrenched in their systems to change.

Yeah the camera company's over there have a pool they can draw from to help each other out. Not a bad deal for the weaker ones to have to help them.

Trouble is the endoscopes business is on it's last legs also. There are now more and more less invasive tests for Colon Cancer on the horizon that do not involve an endoscope at all. The average person hates the thought of that test.

[PolarStarArts]

7 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

I rather suspect that Sony sees its losses in cameras as a marketing expense for its sensors....

Much in the same way Canon are floating on their vast and deep lens ecosystem and think they don't have to innovate to survive.

[Matthew Boyle]

This very interesting article reminded me of my own blog post about my frustration with Canon in 2015. This has been coming a long time and I really feel let down by them. 

http://www.matthewboyle.net/2015/01/06/take-some-chances-canon/

[thephoenix]

as long as they keep stucked with their marketing / commercial policy saying this camera cannot do that because the more expensive does it they will keep falling.

i don't feel sorry for them, had canon for years but they just do either shitty cameras that are really expensive for what they really are either good cameras that cost a ton.

competitors aren't waiting.

[drm]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Nuclear Power plant blowing up, Earthquakes, Tsunamis, Global Economy, and through the roof Labor wages have just about done in Japan.

Japan has an even more serious problem... demographics. If you look at the demographics in Japan (and other "rich" countries), the demographics are terrifying for the longer term business horizon. Japan overall is aging quickly. Over 28% of the population is older than 65,  the avg. number of children per woman is 1.4, and they are having 400k more deaths than births each year. This has resulted in big labor shortages, with it being reported that there are about 1.6 vacancies for each applicant. They are also not keen on the idea of fixing their demographic problem via immigration, as some of the other wealthy countries are trying (I don't want to start a rukus, but the immigration route is fraught with peril). This is playing out to a lesser extent in the other "wealthy" countries as well.

So, the country is facing both market and product problems. It really will take some very clever moves to survive. I suggest that people be on the lookout for a small company that innovates. These are the times where a new Microsoft can be born.

[Video Hummus]

8 minutes ago, drm said:

Japan has an even more serious problem...

Not just Japan. The world. The next 50 years don't look particularly good. Exploding population, climate change, antibiotic resistances, society and technology. I think human kind will need a certain level of pain to change...so cheers.