Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge 64%

[Kisaha]

52 minutes ago, Christof Haberle said:

 That's sort of where I think there'll always be an equivalent market niche for companies on the video / photography side. But that's not through mass market appeal.
 

Yes, but there are quite a few of those niches, and a whole planet crazy about image and video right now. Youtube/fb/insta are running the planet (and I am not on any of those!).

Also, camera phones IS a camera market, it is a phone that has dedicated sensors, lenses, photo and video pipeline, special imaging software, e.t.c like a dedicated camera does.

Imagine Canon powered Xiaomi phones with 20-40% rights for Canon, offering AF, color science, their logo, maybe even a new fab for sensors - strengthen and modernize their own ancient fab labs. Back in profit instantly!

Samsung left cameras because Samsung do not do niche anymore. They left most of their niche companies (military also, I think) but they still innovate and produce and gain in sensors, memory, ssd, phones, where they can mass produce.

Other companies find their niche and thrive (BM, Fuji, e.t.c).

[PolarStarArts]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

Samsung left cameras because Samsung do not do niche anymore.

It's a shame they left. Their NX1 and NX500 cameras seemed to offer the ground on which Samsung could have been a very successful camera manufacturer.

 

[plucas]

Another report regarding the sales slump at Canon: https://www.canonwatch.com/canon-releases-interim-financial-report-sales-plummeted-by-10/

Does anyone seriously think Canon can or will regain ground?

It looks like they're sunk: the consumer camera market is contracting, and their tech literally cannot compete. Case in point: their latest sensor inside the M6ii and 90D still cannot achieve 4K recording with a full-sensor readout. (And no 4K 60p, either.) Don't tell me either that Canon crippled the EOS R with the 4K crop. Here's the deal: their DIGIC 8 is a inept technological piece; so much so that in the two years since the 5DIV and its DIGIC 6+, they couldn't improve the crop factor. In other words, beyond the slight noise improvement, the DIGIC 8 is a fifth wheel.

Now, their market success is likely to remain with pro-sports shooters thanks to the 1DXii and their 1DXiii could keep them ahead here in the short-term. But what else?

Their company profits have fallen, their tech is years behind on everything but lenses, and they handicap their products. This isn't just a market dip; it's terminal decline.

[PolarStarArts]

51 minutes ago, plucas said:

Another report regarding the sales slump at Canon: https://www.canonwatch.com/canon-releases-interim-financial-report-sales-plummeted-by-10/

Does anyone seriously think Canon can or will regain ground?

It looks like they're sunk: the consumer camera market is contracting, and their tech literally cannot compete. Case in point: their latest sensor inside the M6ii and 90D still cannot achieve 4K recording with a full-sensor readout. (And no 4K 60p, either.) Don't tell me either that Canon crippled the EOS R with the 4K crop. Here's the deal: their DIGIC 8 is a inept technological piece; so much so that in the two years since the 5DIV and its DIGIC 6+, they couldn't improve the crop factor. In other words, beyond the slight noise improvement, the DIGIC 8 is a fifth wheel.

Now, their market success is likely to remain with pro-sports shooters thanks to the 1DXii and their 1DXiii could keep them ahead here in the short-term. But what else?

Their company profits have fallen, their tech is years behind on everything but lenses, and they handicap their products. This isn't just a market dip; it's terminal decline.

Agreed. I think Canon are done.

The Canon EOS M6 I own now will probably be the last Canon camera I'll ever buy, or own. I was so disappointed when Canon brought out their new EOS M6 Mark II. I was hoping that it would be a natural upgrade path for me.

Sure, there's no crop factor in 4K, but there's no DPAF available either and the only mode you get in 4K is 30p. There's no 24p mode in standard HD, only 30p. If you want to shoot in 60p, you have to downgrade to 720p, which is barely HD in this day and age. That's nuts, if you ask me.

The EOS RP full-frame camera is similarly crippled and has a horrible 4K crop. And it's overpriced. In Canada, a EOS RP with the 'kit' 24-105mm F4 L-series RF mount lens is $2899.00. That's a lot to ask for a camera that isn't even semi-pro grade and is aimed at dumb consumers who want full-frame but don't know any better.

And don't get me started on the EOS R, which is almost $4K in Canadian dollars with the same 'kit' lens.

The way Canon want people to do things is to buy one of their crippled stills cameras and then buy one of their XA- or XF-series camcorders if they shoot video and want 4K. Or, buy one of their Cinema EOS cameras like a C100, C200 or C300. Like a lot of people, I'm not made of money and can't afford to do this. I want ONE camera, one that does it all reasonably well, is affordable and won't suck all the cash out of my bank account. I demand good image quality and good autofocus when it's needed.

I'm in the market for a new camera and looking to get into pro photography. My M6, nice as it is for purely still photography, won't cut it. I know a new camera won't make me a better photographer. But that's not the point. What I'm looking for is usability and features that will help me get the shots I want. And let me shoot video.

The problem, as I see it, is that Canon have too many camera lines chasing too few dollars. And they're engaging in excessive market segmentation where they either withhold features buyers want, or put them just out of reach until they stump up the extra cash to get them, whether they can afford to or not. All in an effort to squeeze still more cash out of their customers. As a consumer, I don't like being forced to do anything, nor do I like the feeling of someone, anyone, trying to extract something from me.

My next camera may well be a Sony A7II. Sure, it won't have 4K, but it will have XAVC-S video at 50Mb/s. The quality of video you can get in XAVC-S at that bit rate is pretty much equivalent to the quality you get from downsampling 4K to 1080p.

My thinking is that if Canon take another 5 to 10% hit on their revenues and don't smarten up, they'll be exiting the camera business.

 

[Robert Collins]

I wouldnt count Canon out - underinvesting in their camera business looks, increasingly, a pretty smart move. 

Others appear to be 'rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic' while Sony is installing armchairs....

[mkabi]

Bah... who cares... I’m not an investor...

Im a consumer... and I don’t see Canon producing anything of interest to me to anymore. Period.

[PolarStarArts]

2 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

I wouldnt count Canon out - underinvesting in their camera business looks, increasingly, a pretty smart move. 

Others appear to be 'rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic' while Sony is installing armchairs....

If underinvesting in the camera business is a smart move, then why are Canon still in the camera business at all? Why not simply cease manufacturing camera bodies and just make lenses for various camera manufacturers the way Sigma and Tamron do?

The bottom line is that Canon got greedy and thought they could rest on their laurels, said laurels consisting of their deep and vast lens ecosystem.

[mkabi]

1 hour ago, mkabi said:

Typo

 

[eleison]

39 minutes ago, PolarStarArts said:

 

The bottom line is that Canon got greedy and thought they could rest on their laurels, said laurels consisting of their deep and vast lens ecosystem.

 

Canon didn't want to cannibalize their C300, C200, etc cameras becuz if you want good video, you don't use a small camera "designed" for taking pictures instead you use a $16,000 camera "designed" for video.  They were probably hoping that their cinema cameras would be a halo product to help sell their consumer cameras.  They didn't understand that enthusiastic are the one's that are buying and they don't really care about "halo" products like the mainstream consumers (soccer moms, etc.).  Besides, these mainstream consumers are increasing just using their cell phones.  oh well, good to know you Canon, don't let the door hit you in the butt when you leave. 

[Alex T]

There are so many options for decent 4k & video features these days (at an unbeatable price point) that I'm no longer hoping for Canon to satisfy my requirements. The party is somewhere else now and boy is it raging! 

I'll always remember Canon fondly. The 5d II was my first proper camera and then the 5D III. Only reason I've still kept hold of it - Great stills, and great video (But only with Magic Lantern).  However I shall be selling it soon to raise money for more gear  

[Mokara]

7 hours ago, plucas said:

Another report regarding the sales slump at Canon: https://www.canonwatch.com/canon-releases-interim-financial-report-sales-plummeted-by-10/

Does anyone seriously think Canon can or will regain ground?

It looks like they're sunk: the consumer camera market is contracting, and their tech literally cannot compete. Case in point: their latest sensor inside the M6ii and 90D still cannot achieve 4K recording with a full-sensor readout. (And no 4K 60p, either.) Don't tell me either that Canon crippled the EOS R with the 4K crop. Here's the deal: their DIGIC 8 is a inept technological piece; so much so that in the two years since the 5DIV and its DIGIC 6+, they couldn't improve the crop factor. In other words, beyond the slight noise improvement, the DIGIC 8 is a fifth wheel.

Now, their market success is likely to remain with pro-sports shooters thanks to the 1DXii and their 1DXiii could keep them ahead here in the short-term. But what else?

Their company profits have fallen, their tech is years behind on everything but lenses, and they handicap their products. This isn't just a market dip; it's terminal decline.

That has nothing to do with the sensor, it is a limitation of the processor. The improvements over Digic 6 (as far as video is concerned) is 4K (the hardware encoded kind, not the software mjpeg kind). Hardware encoding of 4K was introduced in the Digic 7/DV5 processor, but it ran too hot to be implemented in consumer/stills cameras. Digic 8/DV6 has a scaled back 4K encoder which has a thermal envelope suitable for 4K in consumer cameras but otherwise offers no improvement. No doubt further improvements in the Digic 9 (when that is released) will make more advanced video capabilities possible in an acceptable thermal envelope (that is the obvious immediate challenge for Canon's engineers), but just not right now. We have to wait for that processor.

3 hours ago, eleison said:

 

Canon didn't want to cannibalize their C300, C200, etc cameras becuz if you want good video, you don't use a small camera "designed" for taking pictures instead you use a $16,000 camera "designed" for video.  They were probably hoping that their cinema cameras would be a halo product to help sell their consumer cameras.  They didn't understand that enthusiastic are the one's that are buying and they don't really care about "halo" products like the mainstream consumers (soccer moms, etc.).  Besides, these mainstream consumers are increasing just using their cell phones.  oh well, good to know you Canon, don't let the door hit you in the butt when you leave. 

Hybrids don't cannibalize pro-video camera sales. That is a myth to rationalize the absence of some features from hybrids, but the real reason for that absence is that it is not technically possible to implement them in that form factor in a way that practical, economic and reliable. And before people start going off half cocked, "reliable" from a manufacturers perspective is avoiding returns for any reason as far as possible - one of the major reason features are implemented so conservatively. All of the main players do things this way, the only manufacturers who do not are the new insurgent ones, such as BM, who have nothing to lose and have to take risks to get a foothold. 

[Avenger 2.0]

3 hours ago, Alex T said:

There are so many options for decent 4k & video features these days (at an unbeatable price point) that I'm no longer hoping for Canon to satisfy my requirements. The party is somewhere else now and boy is it raging! 

I'll always remember Canon fondly. The 5d II was my first proper camera and then the 5D III. Only reason I've still kept hold of it - Great stills, and great video (But only with Magic Lantern).  However I shall be selling it soon to raise money for more gear  

I just wish there was a camera that had decent pdaf video tracking with (adapted) Canon EF lenses.

[Alex T]

6 minutes ago, Avenger 2.0 said:

I just wish there was a camera that had decent pdaf video tracking with (adapted) Canon EF lenses.

I'm sure we'll get there

[Mako Sports]

9 minutes ago, Avenger 2.0 said:

I just wish there was a camera that had decent pdaf video tracking with (adapted) Canon EF lenses.

A7iii + MC11?

[ntblowz]

7 hours ago, PolarStarArts said:

Agreed. I think Canon are done.

re, it won't have 4K, but it will have XAVC-S video at 50Mb/s. The quality of video you can get in XAVC-S at that bit rate is pretty much equivalent to the quality you get from downsampling 4K to 1080p.

 

Sorry but Canon's 1080P with digic 8 is much sharper than most Sony's 1080P (except A6000/a5100) 

A7II video quality is meh.. I used it once one on the wedding and quickly got a7rii afterward to pair with my FS5/a7s back then.

Bitrate isn't everything, the 35Mbps MP4 from c200 is much better than xavc-s 50Mbps at 1080p or the 60Mbps IBP on EOS R..

[Mako Sports]

4 minutes ago, ntblowz said:

Sorry but Canon's 1080P with digic 8 is much sharper than most Sony's 1080P (except A6000/a5100) 

A7II video quality is meh.. I used it once one on the wedding and quickly got a7rii afterward to pair with my FS5/a7s back then.

Bitrate isn't everything, the 35Mbps MP4 from c200 is much better than xavc-s 50Mbps at 1080p or the 60Mbps IBP on EOS R..

A7s classic probably has the best 1080p for the alpha line, possibly better than the digic 8 canon stuff as well

[ntblowz]

2 minutes ago, Mako Sports said:

A7s classic probably has the best 1080p for the alpha line, possibly better than the digic 8 canon stuff as well

Yeah, the a7s/s ii is the best 1080p cam from Sony, none of Sony's latest mirrorless offering can touch it on 1080p quality

[Kisaha]

@PolarStarArts the A7ii is not a good camera, you should look for an A7iii that is both cheap and capable.

[User]

It took a bit, but I managed to find the decisive moment where things changed for Canon, and not for the better.
Description taken from the poster:
"Enroute to negotiate access to newer Sony camera processors in Kowloon, a Canon sales rep is derailed by a mysterious man forcing Canon to carry forward with their in-house Digic technology."