Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 6K

[A_Urquhart]

11 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

And this is in the P6K footage on You Tube - HOW?  

Let me guess you watch You Tube on your TV?

I wasn't saying that you are watching with image smoothing on, I was just trying to illustrate how film motion DOES have "stutter" (as you called it) and the proof is that TV's try to smooth out this stutter which is not how the film maker intended. If Films were perfectly smooth "as silk" as you say, there wouldn't be this issue would there?

I don't know why you are getting so angry about this?

And yes, I often watch YouTube on my TV.....is there a problem with that?

[Skip77]

6 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

You know what's the problem of that, Skip77? Take a second thought reading your posts again, you'll easily follow the reasoning behind any hostile criticism on your entries as pre-judgement or misconceptions as you call it. Credit must be earned, no other : -)

I'm not looking for credit or to be liked on this board.  People can agree or not agree.  You comment above proves Mattias posted a junk comment with nothing to back it up because I'm the one that said the P6K is more cinematic then the P4K.  Thanks for proving my point that he post was with out substance. 

4 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

I wasn't saying that you are watching with image smoothing on, I was just trying to illustrate how film motion DOES have "stutter" (as you called it) and the proof is that TV's try to smooth out this stutter which is not how the film maker intended. If Films were perfectly smooth "as silk" as you say, there wouldn't be this issue would there?

I don't know why you are getting so angry about this?

And yes, I often watch YouTube on my TV.....is there a problem with that?

Motion film does not have a stutter. You are flat out wrong.  Just because TV's have a setting to deal with motion blur does not prove film has a stutter. 

If you were right it would be more of an issue then me and you talking about motion cadence.

And at 50 fps the RED and P4K and C200 capture natural motion cadence correctly.  

[Emanuel]

Please don't infer anything else other than what I really wrote up there to not distorting my wording... LOL I laugh now to not cry ; )

You previously said it.

I just seconded if that's the way you say it, c'mon don't complain on him but on your butt, that's all : -)

[Skip77]

1 minute ago, Emanuel said:

Please don't infer anything else other than what I really wrote up there to not distorting my wording... LOL I laugh now to not cry ; -) You previously said it, I just seconded if that's the way you say it, don't complain on him but on your butt, that's all : -)

Can you speak in your native tongue ?  I can't understand your writing?  Your point was I have to earn respect to get the correct feedback.  You wrote it in broken English, what your doing now is back tracking..............

[Emanuel]

I'm afraid it's not my broken English but the content there you don't understand ; ) I'm sorry I can't do anything else for you : ) The more you post the more you are distant of such credit I mentioned about Mattias. He can succeed to reach us only with just a little. Why? Is it actually necessary to point why? Really?

Unfortunately, we can't say the same on your attempts no matter how much you post ; D

[A_Urquhart]

18 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Motion film does not have a stutter. You are flat out wrong.  Just because TV's have a setting to deal with motion blur does not prove film has a stutter. 

And at 50 fps the RED and P4K and C200 capture natural motion cadence correctly.  

I'm really not sure what you are saying here. Yes, at 50p, there is no 'stutter' as there are double the frames. Films captured at 24p (whether captured on film or digitally) do have a stutter to them though. Most films are shot 24p and that is generally when we talk about 'motion cadence'....at 24p or 25p. If films shot at 24p were smooth as 'silk' then why does 50p look so much smoother?

 

[Emanuel]

28 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

I'm really not sure what you are saying here.

Who else...? LMAO : )

 

Funny that one to follow another one of his pearls : D

[Skip77]

Just now, A_Urquhart said:

I'm really not sure what you are saying here. Yes, at 50p, there is no 'stutter' as there are double the frames. Films captured at 24p (wether captured on film or digitally) do have a stutter to them though. Most films are shot 24p and that is generally when we talk about 'motion cadence'....at 24p or 25p. If films shot at 24p were smooth as 'silk' then why does 50p look so much smoother?

 

It would be awesome if you would talk about motion cadence and if you think the P6K produces this better then the P4K as I originally stated. 

Smooth as silk is not an industry term and was what I called the 50fps.  

Motion film that we see on the big screen and on classic tv and classic movies captures motion cadence perfectly.  If you disagree then say so. We have no visible stutter when watching 24fps motion pictures and for you to keep saying that we do is false. 

The job of film and or digital film is to capture motion that we see naturally with out eyes. Our eyes don't have a stutter built in and 24fps doesn't have one. This is true for film and animation.  Any stutter you see in recorded video is when a camera isn't able to capture motion cadence correctly. 

 

 

[A_Urquhart]

1 minute ago, Skip77 said:

It would be awesome if you would talk about motion cadence and if you think the P6K produces this better then the P4K as I originally stated. 

Smooth as silk is not an industry term and was what I called the 50fps.  

Motion film that we see on the big screen and on classic tv and classic movies captures motion cadence perfectly.  If you disagree then say so. We have no visible stutter when watching 24fps motion pictures and for you to keep saying that we do is false. 

The job of film and or digital film is to capture motion that we see naturally with out eyes. Our eyes don't have a stutter built in and 24fps doesn't have one. This is true for film and animation.  Any stutter you see in recorded video is when a camera isn't able to capture motion cadence correctly. 

 

 

So, to clarify, are you saying that motion film at 24p is just as smooth as 50p? ie, both are smooth 'as silk' and with zero 'stutter'?

[Skip77]

6 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

So, to clarify, are you saying that motion film at 24p is just as smooth as 50p? ie, both are smooth 'as silk' and with zero 'stutter'?

Motion film done correctly captures natural motion cadence.  

Have you found a better way to capture motion in the industry?

So is the film community really torn between the P4K and the new P6K release?  Or are you all afraid to post because I said how good the P6K footage looks?

 

[Emanuel]

No one is bothered with your remarks on the way P6K looks, just the way you comment them ; ) Can't say the same on a few other comments though... How deny jitters and stuttering proper from 24fps for decades so far as some sorta shortcoming? Does it make any sense...?

[drm]

1 hour ago, A_Urquhart said:

I have a little mission in life whereby whenever I visit someones house, I try to secretly turn off image smoothing when they are up making me a coffee as most TV's seem to have it on by default.

They don't notice anything and it is back to how the film maker intended

LOL! I love it. Remind me to check my TV if I ever have you over to my house  

That reminds me of the first time that I purchased a 4K TV a few years ago. I had a very strong reaction to it and disliked the image. It came turned to a setting like that where it looked really "videoish". As soon as I turned that setting off (I forget what it was called) I was much happier.

[Emanuel]

Motion cadence obviously matters... What for are we discussing here after all?

[drm]

I haven't paid super close attention to this yet, but I would imagine that the P4K and the P6K would have very similar or identical "motion cadence" as they are using the same image pipeline (other than the sensor). Perhaps the slightly larger sensor will have a small impact. I am setting up a time now with a couple of my guys to go play with the P4K vs. P6K. I will ask their thoughts on the matter.

Here is something on motion blur for Skip77 start at 3:23 if it doesn't start on its own 

 

[Emanuel]

4 minutes ago, drm said:

...for Skip77 start at 3:23 if it doesn't start on its own 

LOL : -)

[A_Urquhart]

52 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Motion film done correctly captures natural motion cadence.  

Have you found a better way to capture motion in the industry?

So is the film community really torn between the P4K and the new P6K release?  Or are you all afraid to post because I said how good the P6K footage looks?

 

I still don't understand what you are trying to convey here.

The industry accepts that images shot at 24p have 'stutter' for lack of a better word. There are ways to minimise it in the way you shoot, but 24fps can only provide smooth motion up to a certain point.  

https://cinematography.com/index.php?/topic/65391-a-question-about-motion-cadence/&do=findComment&comment=418530

Maybe read that thread and argue your case there. 

I don't know but I think this conversation is probably boring the hell out of people wanting to know about the P6K.

[Emanuel]

Reality will never overcome some representation of it. That's why it is called art. 24fps posed a standard, dictated as its intrinsic motion cadence. Other than that is not adding anything but just diminishing all that. Who doesn't understand this has no clue what's going on.

E : -)

[Skip77]

56 minutes ago, drm said:

I haven't paid super close attention to this yet, but I would imagine that the P4K and the P6K would have very similar or identical "motion cadence" as they are using the same image pipeline (other than the sensor). Perhaps the slightly larger sensor will have a small impact. I am setting up a time now with a couple of my guys to go play with the P4K vs. P6K. I will ask their thoughts on the matter.

Here is something on motion blur for Skip77 start at 3:23 if it doesn't start on its own 

 

Cine cameras don't have shutter speeds as they have shutter angles.  Why wouldn't you know this if you posted this guys video? 

Motion cadence in cameras has to do with the processor and sensor read out.  The GH5 has the perfect glitch when panning left and right. Not sure if they fixed it.

The sample video and information is not about motion cadence from the P6K or P4K.  

 

[User]

29 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

I don't know but I think this conversation is probably boring the hell out of people wanting to know about the P6K.

Amen.

I think what Skip77 doesn't realize is that his brain (if you'll excuse the exaggeration) fills in the spaces (gaps) between the frames so that 24 fps comes across as smooth motion.
But if he were mindful enough in the first few seconds of turning on a 24fps film, he may actually see the 'stutter.' Especially if watching something at 50fps beforehand.

[A_Urquhart]

1 minute ago, User said:

Amen.

I think what Skip77 doesn't realize is that his brain (if you'll excuse the exaggeration) fills in the spaces between the frames so that 24 fps comes across as smooth motion.
But if he were mindful enough in the first few seconds of turning on a 24fps film, he may actually see the 'stutter.' Especially if watching something at 50fps beforehand.

Yep this. And the fact that motion blur acts to hide the stutter.

Skip, this same stutter happens in film (it's not limited to digital sensors, as you can read in the Cinematography thread I linked to. 

Adios, I'm moving on from this.....