6K RAW is over-rated. Here's why...

[kye]

This isn't click-bait BS, let's actually talk about why 6K RAW cameras aren't really needed.

I see two main reasons:

• Many cameras already shoot 6K downscaled to a 4K output (and the GH5 even has a lower-processed 5K anamorphic 4:3 mode) so the resolution benefits of 6K debayer resolution for a 4K delivery are already being enjoyed by many people
• For those who are claiming you need 6K to reframe for a 4K output, it is likely you don't know what reframing actually looks like

There is a third reason - that resolution has absolutely nothing to do with how good your film is, but I'll just assume that people who are desperate to get more resolution are probably not yet ready to hear this and I'll move on and pretend it somehow matters.

Much analysis has been done of the 6K -> 4K downsampling cameras, so I won't replicate those conversations, but instead let's look at the reframing argument.

If you're shooting 6K to reframe and get a 100% 4K crop out, you can reframe into the image up to 150% .  ie, if you want to match the same re-framing with only a 4K source, you must scale up that 4K source to 150%, effectively using a 2.5k source.  It sounds terrible, and despite people repeatedly saying that ARRI cameras capture at 3.2k and upscale to 4K (a 125% upscale) people still dismiss upscaling out-of-hand without actually knowing what difference this scaling makes, and being too lazy to actually test it themselves.

So I did it for you.... 

I look forward to people arguing their point in the face of overwhelming evidence....  ???

That is, unless you're delivering in 6K and also want to re-frame heavily in post, but seriously - who would be doing that?

[thephoenix]

it's funny how so many people just spit on 6k as bm just relesaed the bmpcc6k

wasn't so many haters when the S1 came out.

so why ? 6k is the future, why complain, bm produces a camera that almost everyone can buy, why complain again ?

as of 6k is over rated, i guess some said the same about 4k and some will always complain.

6k is usefull in amny many ways that had been stated many times, but one more example: if you shoot a commercial for a brand that, like so many now, needs to produce for so many medias like yt or instagram or electronic bilboards and so many differents framing then you're happy to be able to crop just as you like without losing quality.

guys, stop complaining just because you don't need something or cannot afford it.

[Lars Steenhoff]

It still useful for stabilising in post

[Video Hummus]

I see GAS all over the place. Happens every time a new product is released. If anything it will help keep the companies afloat ? (this comment is brand agnostic). As long as BM releases better products at low prices (even if I don’t buy them) it’s a win down the road. 

[DBounce]

4 hours ago, thephoenix said:

it's funny how so many people just spit on 6k as bm just relesaed the bmpcc6k

wasn't so many haters when the S1 came out.

so why ? 6k is the future, why complain, bm produces a camera that almost everyone can buy, why complain again ?

as of 6k is over rated, i guess some said the same about 4k and some will always complain.

6k is usefull in amny many ways that had been stated many times, but one more example: if you shoot a commercial for a brand that, like so many now, needs to produce for so many medias like yt or instagram or electronic bilboards and so many differents framing then you're happy to be able to crop just as you like without losing quality.

guys, stop complaining just because you don't need something or cannot afford it.

I'm not spitting on it,  but I'm not buying it.  I do this for fun, it's just a hobby for me. I'm a prosumer... a enthusiast that will buy pro gear. But the P6Ks cameras plastic build,  lack of good AF, bulky proportions and absence of any weather sealing makes it a pass for me. It's also doesn't help that it's been beaten hard with the ugly stick. 

The Panasonic S1H, Sigma FP or the Komodo(pending specs) are more my speed. 

[maxmizer]

9 minutes ago, DBounce said:

I'm a prosumer ...  lack of good AF...

if you:  prosumer 

you don't need this AF...we are serious ... on semi pro and pro they might not even put any Af, and I hope they (Sony, Panasonic, Red, Bmd...ecc) do it as soon as possible!

[Coiii]

If a client asks and demands for 6K or you REALLY NEED 6K you probably have the budget to rent a better camera. If you don't have the budget you're doing something wrong.

[DBounce]

1 hour ago, maxmizer said:

if you:  prosumer 

you don't need this AF...we are serious ... on semi pro and pro they might not even put any Af, and I hope they (Sony, Panasonic, Red, Bmd...ecc) do it as soon as possible!

I'm not sure what you are talking about? Are you saying AF is not "Pro"? Honestly I could care less what is "Pro"... I use a gimbal and motion controllers and often times control multiple cameras at once.  AF is a needed feature for these situations. I'm not talking about elaborate focus pulling... I'm taking about locking onto a subject and keeping it in focus. The primary reasons I do not buy Reds and Arri are: size, weight, lack of AF and convenience. If that changes I might have to rethink things. 

This new "pocket" camera is simply too large and bulky to be the kind of camera I would carry day to day.  It's size and bulk relegate it to planned shoots. The kind of shoots my C200 is used for. The only thing this camera has going for it imo is price. But honestly, price is not a dominant factor in my purchasing decision. The more important factor for me is convenience of use... because if it is not convenient to use,  well... I don't use it. 

[Kisaha]

5 minutes ago, Coiii said:

If a client asks and demands for 6K or you REALLY NEED 6K you probably have the budget to rent a better camera. If you don't have the budget you're doing something wrong.

I doubt many clients even know that 6K exists!

The next resolution will be 8K I guess.

[Video Hummus]

36 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

The next resolution will be 8K I guess.

12K or go home. Only real pros shoot 12K. Gods shoot 16K.

I think we are in vastly diminishing returns beyond 6K resolution for most filmic work. Sure, are there always uses for higher resolutions, sure! But when it comes to non-scientific bodies of work where you have an actor on frame or a landscape in front of you there are many more things that will improve your film than resolution (I’m talking video work here, not photos).

There are also hard physical limits to data storage as well. Laws of physics and all that.

Hence why bigger resolutions don’t excite me. Give me higher DR and better ISO please. Even with ISO (S1 and A7siii) we are approaching good enough for 95% of scenes you will encounter. The rest you fabricate.

Give me more compact, but still ergonomic, footprint with a decent resolutions, frame rates, codecs, and storage mediums.

The camera industry is down but when you stand back it is larger than ever before. Phones have become primarily cameras—not the other way around. Do a poll. What are the top things people look for in a phone? Probably close to no. 1 will be a great camera! It’s more popular than ever. But for most people convenience trumps most everything else.

There will come a time when something shot on an 12K Monstro Mega X Beast won’t be, practically, much better than something shot with a iPhone 15 or One Plus Note 20 (for most sane people; we are insane).

Also, @kye, can I borrow your Konica Hexacon? I promise I’ll give it back. Honest.

[kye]

47 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

12K or go home. Only real pros shoot 12K. Gods shoot 16K.

<snip>

Also, @kye, can I borrow your Konica Hexacon? I promise I’ll give it back. Honest.

12K ha ha...  16K HA HA HA!!

The Konica's were very popular lenses and so there are heaps of them available.

I think I paid under AU$100 including shipping for an AR -> MFT dumb adapter and two 40mm f1.8 lenses.  I bought at the more budget end and so essentially bought a spare in case one was junk.  I haven't explored the rest of their range but the 40/1.8 has a great reputation.  I also have a couple of different variants of the Helios 58/2 and a Mir-1B 37mm f2.8 (which is apochromatic) and the Konica is my one of my core three lenses.

I did a big comparison which is here:

People are going to like the image quality from 6K because it's closer to getting 4K 444 than straight 4K is, but not many people are going to have lenses that really reveal the resolving power of such a resolution.

[Video Hummus]

Ah, it’s the 1.8. I jumped the gun and thought it was the famed 57mm Hexanon 1.2 AR. When I skimmed the intro text.

[maxmizer]

3 hours ago, DBounce said:

I'm not sure what you are talking about? Are you saying AF is not "Pro"? Honestly I could care less what is "Pro"... I use a gimbal and motion controllers and often times control multiple cameras at once.  AF is a needed feature for these situations. I'm not talking about elaborate focus pulling... I'm taking about locking onto a subject and keeping it in focus. The primary reasons I do not buy Reds and Arri are: size, weight, lack of AF and convenience. If that changes I might have to rethink things. 

This new "pocket" camera is simply too large and bulky to be the kind of camera I would carry day to day.  It's size and bulk relegate it to planned shoots. The kind of shoots my C200 is used for. The only thing this camera has going for it imo is price. But honestly, price is not a dominant factor in my purchasing decision. The more important factor for me is convenience of use... because if it is not convenient to use,  well... I don't use it. 

I don't know what kind of filmography or if it is only videography like youtuber ... my advice is to find one or more people that help you to shoot without Af, but with the followfocus ... like everyone ... because you are blocking yours artistic expression ...

4 hours ago, Kisaha said:

The next resolution will be 8K I guess.

Red monstro and Panavision DXL2 are 8K, was also announced by Zcam E2-F8 at 8k in October

[hansel]

20 minutes ago, maxmizer said:

I don't know what kind of filmography or if it is only videography like youtuber ... my advice is to find one or more people that help you to shoot without Af, but with the followfocus ... like everyone ... because you are blocking yours artistic expression ...

You just don't get it. Would you say the same to ibis because you know you could just use a tripod, man or have someone else roll in the dolly? Time, money, run and gun, uncontrolled shoot, gimbals, limited crew etc... are just a couple of reasons why it would make sense to put "organic focus" lower than a lot of other things on the to do list.

[maxmizer]

17 minutes ago, hansel said:

You just don't get it. Would you say the same to ibis because you know you could just use a tripod, man or have someone else roll in the dolly? Time, money, run and gun, uncontrolled shoot, gimbals, limited crew etc... are just a couple of reasons why it would make sense to put "organic focus" lower than a lot of other things on the to do list.

I understand very well, but it produces so much with little artistic quality ...

it's not that I have to explain ABC of filmography, if you know how to make a real movie...The lenses are manuals

example: https://fjsinternational.com/primes.html

 

[DBounce]

2 minutes ago, maxmizer said:

I don't understand very well, but it produces so much with little artistic quality ...

 

I suspect you don’t get it... AF is much better than it used to be. I’ve seen many would be filmmakers with lots of out of focus footage. 

Fyi: my motion control rigs run unattended for live shooting with no issues.

[maxmizer]

4 minutes ago, DBounce said:

I suspect you don’t get it... AF is much better than it used to be. I’ve seen many would be filmmakers with lots of out of focus footage. 

Fyi: my motion control rigs run unattended for live shooting with no issues.

errata corrige by google translate: I understand very well, but it produces so much with little artistic quality ...

[DBounce]

25 minutes ago, maxmizer said:

errata corrige by google translate: I understand very well, but it produces so much with little artistic quality ...

I’ll keep that in mind next time I’m live streaming a corporate meeting. You seen to assume the use of this gear is making independent shorts. 

[maxmizer]

I agree, but their devaluation is so high !!! by now not much to see ...so much garbage...
I thought a product like this https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/handheld-camcorders/pxw-z90

would be the best for the kind of live performance you do ...

[DBounce]

2 hours ago, maxmizer said:

I agree, but their devaluation is so high !!! by now not much to see ...so much garbage...
I thought a product like this https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/handheld-camcorders/pxw-z90

would be the best for the kind of live performance you do ...

Not with those tiny sensors. My current setup works great. I choose to work with what interest me and gives the look that I'm after. Sony color science is not my first pick.  If they made this with a S35 or FF sensor,  with interchangeable lens option I would be interested.