Jinni Tech claims RED Compressed RAW patent filing is invalid

[Andrew Reid]

Sony

https://doddlenews.com/reds-jannard-speaks-out-on-sony-lawsuit/

Quote

Jannard goes on to say that the core issue is REDCODE RAW, which the RED CEO feels has been lifted without license by Sony for capturing in the CineAlta cameras. He also says that this isn’t a lawsuit that will get bogged down in “rounded corners,” but is about a violation of the core invention that drives RED cameras. Jannard also says that RED’s patent application cited GoPro’s Cineform RAW compression, and others as “art references,” which enabled them to be granted their patent. The patent has also undergone re-examination and passed with flying colors.

Updated 2012 RED camera system / raw codec patent document

https://www.scribd.com/doc/125170172/Video-camera-US-patent-8174560

Wooden Camera cages and V-mount

http://cinescopophilia.com/red-sues-wooden-camera/

Quote

 

RED contends and believes that its image and the reputation of its products has been tarnished and diminished by Defendant’s sale of RED copy sunglasses of inferior quality.

 

"Sunglasses are mentioned quite a few times throughout the claim"

[BTM_Pix]

17 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

"Sunglasses are mentioned quite a few times throughout the claim"

The sunglasses that Lance used to wear you mean?

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-02/sponsor-turned-blind-eye-to-lance-armstrongs-doping/5564074

[Ed_David]

Thanks for doing this Andrew.  I'm trying to get an interview with Bruce from Jinnimag and try to get up enough evidence to show Wired and the NYTimes, New Yorker, and Engadget and Variety and Hollywood reporter to cover this story.  Also maybe sharing this news with Sony and Canon, maybe they have industry connections they can use.  I spoke to a journalist at Ars Technica, and he said they don't have the resources to verify the claims in the Jinnimag video - they need a red minimag and a red touch lcd, but maybe they have legal experts they can talk to - or if someone has a patent lawyer we can consult with.

Let me know who wants to help start getting this going.

Andrew, also you should consult with a lawyer about their NDA against you.  I'm sure someone can offer you pro-bono legal advice.  It seems a little fishy.

[RWR]

Disruptive technology indeed..

[The ghost of squig]

Eat the rich ?

[Video Hummus]

2 hours ago, Ed_David said:

Thanks for doing this Andrew.  I'm trying to get an interview with Bruce from Jinnimag and try to get up enough evidence to show Wired and the NYTimes, New Yorker, and Engadget and Variety and Hollywood reporter to cover this story.  Also maybe sharing this news with Sony and Canon, maybe they have industry connections they can use.  I spoke to a journalist at Ars Technica, and he said they don't have the resources to verify the claims in the Jinnimag video - they need a red minimag and a red touch lcd, but maybe they have legal experts they can talk to - or if someone has a patent lawyer we can consult with.

Let me know who wants to help start getting this going.

Andrew, also you should consult with a lawyer about their NDA against you.  I'm sure someone can offer you pro-bono legal advice.  It seems a little fishy.

I feel the patent issue is probably dead in the water based on how the patent office works.

The “Made in USA” claims however...that’s looking like deception and possible fraud, at least for that LCD screen.

What is their possible justification for being “made in the usa” or even “assembled in the USA”.

If they did this with the LCD screen what other components did they do it with, if any?

And why would they sue Andrew for talking smack about their product instead of rising to the occasion? Kinda shows a company culture of “bully litigation”.

i suspect a lot of this is driven by the personality of REDs CEO.

[graphicnatured]

Thank you, Andrew. This is the kind of thing I love about EOSHD.

[Robert Collins]

7 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Backstory is becoming very wide knowledge.

1.6m views

 

Linus makes a great point (around the 9 minute mark). That the minimags at their price point really should have ‘two’ SSDs configured in RAID 1 to provide data redundancy in case of the failure of one of the SSDs.

[Mattias Burling]

It must be close to 10 years since it became common knowledge that the CF-module for the RED One MX and the CF-reader was the same thing and consisted of a simple best buy CF-reader in a cool package.

And the RED CF-cards where just rebranded from some regular manufacturer.

So Ive just assumed that they have kept going with that sort of things. Until another maker can give me something as nice as Red-code I would forgive them n an instance and jump all over an affordable RED camera. Luckily they have always managed to stay just outside what I feel comfortable spending for non work related equipment.

[Lars Steenhoff]

Internal compressed raw is patented by Red.

( I dont't know if it only applies to lossy or also lossless compressed )

Uncompressed raw is not patented, so Sigma can make the cinema dng uncompressed camera without patent violations.

The good thing about uncompressed is that right now storage is still expensive and we want compressed, in the future uncompressed will be wanted as storage will be cheap. and therefore we are now in  a transition period.

[Ed_David]

6 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

I feel the patent issue is probably dead in the water based on how the patent office works.

The “Made in USA” claims however...that’s looking like deception and possible fraud, at least for that LCD screen.

What is their possible justification for being “made in the usa” or even “assembled in the USA”.

If they did this with the LCD screen what other components did they do it with, if any?

And why would they sue Andrew for talking smack about their product instead of rising to the occasion? Kinda shows a company culture of “bully litigation”.

i suspect a lot of this is driven by the personality of REDs CEO.

And this is my favorite - the red one - their first camera was "made in Singapore, assembled in Irvine, CA."  The red DSMC2 cameras are "made in USA"

 

When asked about this on reduser, a few users who seem to not work for red but seem to really know a lot about RED's internal offerings claimed everything was made now in Irvine, CA. When I asked to see manufacturing of most components, they wouldn't quite answer beyond a BTS video that shows red and their assembly area.  No microchip or sensor creation.

 

Not one news story to celebrate this - that an american camera company is making their sensors and microchips in the USA!!

Can you imagine the news story!!!  Apple made the mac trash can in the USA and man, that was a giant news story.

HMMMMMMMMMMMM

[Jak234]

8 hours ago, Ed_David said:

Thanks for doing this Andrew.  I'm trying to get an interview with Bruce from Jinnimag and try to get up enough evidence to show Wired and the NYTimes, New Yorker, and Engadget and Variety and Hollywood reporter to cover this story.  Also maybe sharing this news with Sony and Canon, maybe they have industry connections they can use.  I spoke to a journalist at Ars Technica, and he said they don't have the resources to verify the claims in the Jinnimag video - they need a red minimag and a red touch lcd, but maybe they have legal experts they can talk to - or if someone has a patent lawyer we can consult with.

Let me know who wants to help start getting this going.

Andrew, also you should consult with a lawyer about their NDA against you.  I'm sure someone can offer you pro-bono legal advice.  It seems a little fishy.

so great that you do this Ed_David

1 hour ago, Lars Steenhoff said:

Internal compressed raw is patented by Red.

( I dont't know if it only applies to lossy or also lossless compressed )

Uncompressed raw is not patented, so Sigma can make the cinema dng uncompressed camera without patent violations.

The good thing about uncompressed is that right now storage is still expensive and we want compressed, in the future uncompressed will be wanted as storage will be cheap. and therefore we are now in  a transition period.

yes but that will take a long time. As uncompressed raw at 4 or 6k is really storage intensive. In my example I shoot around 50-100 hours for a film (documentary) and have to backup the files at least triple on HDD during shooting around the world. With  intensive compressed raw it would now be possible, with uncompressed it will take another 5 years...

[Amaury Agier-Aurel]

@andrewreid you got all my support. Continue to be free to speak and express your opinions. As you said, you leave in a free country.

I'll support you if RED try again to sue you please share to us and start a kickstarter to pay for lawyer.

Life doen't have to be managed by lawsuit or patent.

Sharing knowledge is the only way to respectable world.

Thanks again for your work.

[maxmizer]

There are companies that use commonly used components and delete the writings with the Dremel when they are laser-marked or with the solvent when screen-printed ... (because I did).
There is always the smartest of all that sometimes gets caught with fingers in the jam.
After all, just buy the sensors (Sony or whoever you want), buy an Arm processor, some components for I-O, a good electronic engineer, a software engineer, assemble everything ... sell

[Andrew Reid]

4 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

Linus makes a great point (around the 9 minute mark). That the minimags at their price point really should have ‘two’ SSDs configured in RAID 1 to provide data redundancy in case of the failure of one of the SSDs.

A drive that is the best of the best and highest price would do that.

3 hours ago, Lars Steenhoff said:

Internal compressed raw is patented by Red.

( I dont't know if it only applies to lossy or also lossless compressed )

Uncompressed raw is not patented, so Sigma can make the cinema dng uncompressed camera without patent violations.

The good thing about uncompressed is that right now storage is still expensive and we want compressed, in the future uncompressed will be wanted as storage will be cheap. and therefore we are now in  a transition period.

Doesn't it say in the RED patent compressed 6:1 minimum?

So I assume 3:1 Cinema DNG or 5:1 compressed RAW is not covered by the RED patent?

Also 2K minimum, so RAW 1080p wouldn't be covered either.

What prior art is the RED patent based on? CineForm? Russian Kinor camera tech?

[Jonesy Jones]

What is the definition of raw?

”Experts” in this field have stated on this forum that even raw photos are not entirely raw. There is processing done to all digital images. So what constitutes raw and what differentiates raw from a codec? Who’s to say compressed raw isn’t a codec?

Is it possible Red holds onto a term purely for marketing purposes?

[Adam V]

The most amusing part of REDCODE to me is that its simply a modified JPEG2000 codec anyways...

[Gavin Greenwalt]

As someone who was once threatened to be "sued into oblivion" for legally reverse engineering Redcode and publishing the details of the tech I have no love for Jannnard's legal team either.  But this seems like bullshit and Jinni Tech woefully ignorant.

The patent is on redcode and I clearly remember redcode not being announced initially. There were questions of how good of image you would get if you couldn't afford the fiber optic module and huge raid. Then at NAB and in Gibby's interview they added the secret sauce. At that point they said they were giving Graeme free reign to use whatever tech he thought would be best with zero legacy consideration so they also didn't prescribe a solution to him.

Red has an overly broad patent on something that is IMO very obvious "hey what if the computer you record jpeg2000 to was the camera itself and not tethered!" no duh. But it appears to cross its i's and dot its t's. 

[Andrew Reid]

I thought the patent is an entire camera system, not just the codec?

Filing date is 2008. When was the 6:1 or greater compression first demonstrated or sold? Were the first RED ONE cameras sold on basis that they had no RAW capabilities whatsoever?

How about the Made In USA part of Jinni's claims?

Not assuming guilt on either side or disparaging RED but I am eager to learn what the facts are, it's an interesting case.

For the record I fully support the technical work done by Mr Nattress on the codec, it's a superb achievement and it deserves to be as successful as it is.

But I just think RED need to chill out, drop the case vs Jinni, apologise over way they treated me, and start going about improving their relations.

[Andrew Reid]

What I want to understand is:

NAB unveil in 2006 - did RED mention compressed RAW here, or at IBC later same year? Did Jannard mention the specs in interviews in 2005/2006? Did RED take sales based on a camera with this capability?

First non-provisional REDCode & camera system patent application was in 2008.

So what JT is saying is that if a company exhibits their work or sells it 1 year before patenting then it's prior art, admittedly their own prior art, but public domain as far as the patent office is concerned...